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  #1  
Old 02-03-2016, 05:58 PM
rock n roll kid rock n roll kid is offline
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Default robberies ... enough carry gun

i know this subject is coming up now on this & some other sites .
have learned thru local news in indy , there have been some daylight robberies to eateries while the places are occupied with customers !
very bold & the bad guys are coming into these place in 3's & 4's . it was stated these folks have 2-3 carrying guns . they are starting to REALLY trying to stack the odds in their favor .
i normally carry small revolver with extra ammo .... wondering if maybe throwing a shot gun or a rifle in the trunk might not be a bad idea !
i am not over paranoid but the way this stuff is shaping up i feel like maybe considering the new way to rob & plunder .... maybe it warrants consideration !
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Old 02-03-2016, 07:46 PM
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If you’re inside an establishment when this kind of thing goes down you might find it difficult to get to the trunk of your car. The way I look at it is any gun is better than no gun and the bigger the caliber the better.
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Old 02-03-2016, 08:00 PM
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If you're anywhere but your trunk that shotgun won't help. Not to say it'd a bad idea, just that it's not immediat. I'd opt for a different carry gun. 5 or 6 rounds may or may not be enough and reloading may not be quick or easy. With a different gun 8/10/13/15/17 rounds. ....well there is less reloading
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Old 02-03-2016, 08:04 PM
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I just read that food cards will be cut off for adults 18-49 that are physically able to work and don't have children. It said around 1.5 million people will be affected. IMO The refugees are probably not included in this cut back though.
So what I am saying is possibly expect more of this kind of **** happening in the near future.
I don't know if I would fire my gun against 3 or 4 armed criminals. I better pray I am a good shot if I do. Follow up shots would be crucial. You can bet your ammo that these criminals will target restaurants that are gun free zones also. Personally I plan on avoiding any gun free businesses.

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Old 02-03-2016, 08:07 PM
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You have to be rather good to get three or four guys before they get you. Most people are not that good. If you want to try, a full size auto that you know well and habitually wearing body armor will improve your odds.
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Old 02-03-2016, 08:11 PM
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3 or 4 armed robbers rush a diner where I am eating a burger and I happen to be armed? If I think I can get out of that situation with my life, I'm going to "be small" and hand over my wallet and probably not going to engage in a gunfight. Probably not. But it depends. Depends on if I think I'm going to get killed anyway. I can cancel my cards and I don't want to be the reason the place gets shot up. It's that mountain and dying on it thing.
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Old 02-03-2016, 08:14 PM
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My advice, don't do anything stupid. Become a good witness instead of a homicide victim at a crime scene.
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Old 02-03-2016, 09:01 PM
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I wouldn't think of using a shotgun in a store--- I see some walking around a crowded mall with a auto something or other-- guards mostly-- you really going to cut loose with a automatic in a mall?? Not if you have a brain.
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Old 02-04-2016, 12:07 AM
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I live in Florida the land of a million + CWLs, I sort of doubt that I can go much of anywhere and be the only one, or two, or three that is armed.

Some of us old farts actually do practice our shooting from time to time.
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Old 02-04-2016, 12:29 AM
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Any group of idiots robbing a cafe is not going to stand and shoot it out. You drop one and open up on the others and the rest will run for their lives. So it is not like you would have to drop all 4 of them. But even if they were organized enough to fire back, I doubt they will be great marksmen.

So the odds are not as bad as they sound, especially if you have decided in advance that you will not be robbed and can stay focused. Also you get to decide when to pull and surprise them.

I would expect such robbers to be young, unorganized, scared, and cowardly or they would not be looking for what they think is a soft target with a small payoff.

I don't know how I would react, but it would depend on how I accessed the situation. If they were just after the cash register, I would tend to be passive. If they went after the customers, that would move me in the direction of action.
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Old 02-04-2016, 12:32 AM
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About 30+ years ago the local jewelry store owned by a young man with a family suddenly closed shop overnight.

The day before, three men had walked into the store at closing time. The owner said that when they locked the door behind them he knew they were going to kill him. He killed one, put the second in the hospital and the third got away trailing blood.

This was not NJ. The Police told the store owner to take his family and disappear. We never saw him again.
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Old 02-04-2016, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rock n roll kid View Post
i know this subject is coming up now on this & some other sites .
have learned thru local news in indy , there have been some daylight robberies to eateries while the places are occupied with customers !
very bold & the bad guys are coming into these place in 3's & 4's . it was stated these folks have 2-3 carrying guns . they are starting to REALLY trying to stack the odds in their favor .
i normally carry small revolver with extra ammo .... wondering if maybe throwing a shot gun or a rifle in the trunk might not be a bad idea !
i am not over paranoid but the way this stuff is shaping up i feel like maybe considering the new way to rob & plunder .... maybe it warrants consideration !
Don't see how the shotgun would be any help since it would be well out of your range to get .. and if you were to get to it and there is a robbery going on inside would another conceal carry individual or the police mistake you for one of the crooks ?? a look out for the BG's

That would be a distinct possibility ..

Give them your wallet and unless they are moving everyone into a back room where they may execute every one or if they start shooting .. be a good witness and mentally describe each one to yourself ..That will help you remember what they looked like when telling your story to the Leo's ..
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Old 02-04-2016, 02:42 AM
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When it comes to protecting yourself the old saying, "an ounce of
prevention is worth a pound of cure" applies. Sadly there's lots of
crime in Indy and shootings are a nightly or even daily occurence.
Seven shootings last weekend but only one death. On the news this
eve, two shootings. Common sense offers far more protection than a
shotgun in your trunk. Do you have any real need to go someplace in
Indy proper, meaning inside the 465 loop? If not then don't. Everybody
knows the areas of Indy that carry a higher risk factor. Duhh...stay out.
Lots and lots of shopping and eating places all over the North side to
relax and enjoy. Your best self defense tool is your head.
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Old 02-04-2016, 02:58 AM
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This falls into the "You can't prepare for everything" category.

I carry a concealed handgun to defend myself, and if feasible, other innocent victims if there are no alternatives to deadly force.

I am not going to prepare for (and I'm certainly not going to do anything to initiate) some mass shootout that is going to turn a restaurant full of people into the final scene of "The Wild Bunch".

And even if one of the ridiculously optimistic Walter Mitty-type scenarios about saving the day, entertained by too many civilian gun carriers, should actually pan out, there is a good chance you'll be shot by the responding cops who'll have a hard time figuring out which crazy civilian with a gun is the good guy.

If you find yourself in a situation as initially described, with multiple armed opponents mixed in with ordinary people, good judgment is going to be a lot more important than extra artillery in the car. As Clint Eastwood famously said, a man's gotta know his limitations.
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Old 02-04-2016, 03:18 AM
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Default Steady judgment......

Quote:
Originally Posted by tcon View Post
3 or 4 armed robbers rush a diner where I am eating a burger and I happen to be armed? If I think I can get out of that situation with my life, I'm going to "be small" and hand over my wallet and probably not going to engage in a gunfight. Probably not. But it depends. Depends on if I think I'm going to get killed anyway. I can cancel my cards and I don't want to be the reason the place gets shot up. It's that mountain and dying on it thing.
Steady judgement and a cool head can save your life. Just because you have a gun doesn't mean you have to pull it or that it's even a good idea to pull it.
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Old 02-04-2016, 11:33 AM
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If you hand over your wallet to a hood, and he starts pulling your credit cards and license, he's going to come across your CCL, then what?
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Old 02-04-2016, 11:51 AM
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Yet another reason to stay out of fast food places!
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Old 02-04-2016, 12:51 PM
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Initiating a shootout with four armed robbers in a crowded restaurant?

That's about a hundred different kinds of foolish unless they started assaulting/executing...
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Old 02-04-2016, 01:20 PM
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Default whoa ....

wrong impression by some here . NO i am savvy enough not to engage in a shooting when someone or 2-3 people already have guns in hand . the idea of a reserve gun would only be of use if you were able to get back to it , u know , the theory of " fighting your way back to you main weapon " . remember , the police keep ar 15's & shotguns in their cruisers and there are cases of them having to work their way back to those arms , and no ! i am not a cop. all speculation but food for thought .
the idea of carrying a higher capacity defense weapon is the best choice , which i already have thought of. but in the summer time some people , including me , dress much lighter which makes a larger higher capacity gun very difficult to put on your person .BUT i am studying some possible ways to make it work .
and to the poster from indiana , i do go into the city ( indy ) at times we try to avoid the worst crime area's..... but we go to pacer games and downtown eateries once in a while .
if i am in a place and this evil comes about i will not take my gun in hand until , if any , the time is right . but i believe if you carry on a regular basis you should be aware that trouble just might be a reality where you are at . hope and pray it never comes about but also be prepared .
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Old 02-04-2016, 01:52 PM
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Deciding to acquiesce to a robber by handing over your wallet go especially you little chance of then fighting back if the robber decides to leave no witnesses. I'm in agreement with those that say be quiet and uninvolved if they go for the cash register, but resist if they go for the customers.
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Old 02-04-2016, 01:58 PM
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Residing in NJ, I'm prepared to be a good witness.

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Old 02-04-2016, 05:24 PM
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Default While he is doing that.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by wbraswell View Post
If you hand over your wallet to a hood, and he starts pulling your credit cards and license, he's going to come across your CCL, then what?
When he comes across the CCL, which will probably distract him for about .1 of a second, pull your gun and shoot him.

PS: They usually weed out the cards and dump the wallet/purse after the getaway.
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Old 02-04-2016, 05:55 PM
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Its easy to conceal full sized handguns during summer. I keep a XL short sleeve columbia bahama ii shirt in my truck. if your going into an area where you feel the need to conceal a big pistol just put that on over your t shirt.
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Old 02-04-2016, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wbraswell View Post
If you hand over your wallet to a hood, and he starts pulling your credit cards and license, he's going to come across your CCL, then what?
You can take the "What if's" too far. The idea of an armed robber in a high-stress situation taking the time to inspect the individual plastic cards in your wallet, let alone recognize a CCL among all your plastic and what it might imply, while y'all stand around with your hands in the air, seems pretty far-fetched, not to say absurd.

Now an off-duty cop with an instantly-recognizable badge wallet might be a different story.
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Old 02-04-2016, 06:51 PM
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I am going to keep carrying one of my 5 shot 44 specials. They would have to start shooting before I tried anything. In a crowded restaurant if I start a shoot out the likelihood of innocent people getting killed would be way to high. If they do start shooting a 3 on 1 situation in a crowded restaurant the odds of any good outcome are bad even with say 14 rounds. Its going to suck no matter what.
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Old 02-04-2016, 07:00 PM
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Idea:
1. eat only in a "Gun Free" restaurant and you won't have to be concerned about robberies.

2. Take your shotgun in the restaurant with you. If nothing else you probably will receive a great discount or even a free meal.
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Old 02-04-2016, 07:10 PM
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I agree stay low profile......BUT..My mindset of today is you'll only get my wallet after my Smith runs dry.
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Old 02-04-2016, 08:05 PM
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They used to hang horse thieves. Now days if they even catch an armed robber he'll get 5 years of 3 hots and a cot with 1 day off his sentence for every day he's a good boy. About 20% of the people in our over crowded country would best serve our society as land fill.
Things are not getting better.
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Old 02-04-2016, 08:32 PM
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The Johannesburg Star had an article some years ago on an off-duty cop who walked into a bank robbery by four terrorists armed with AK's. He had a Star PD .45 and killed all of them. I don't think they hit him.

Some days, the good guy wins. Training and mindset count.

BTW, I think I recognize the jewelry store incident in a post above. The owner killed robbers on a couple of occasions, but LA gang members swore to get him, so he had to move.
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Old 02-04-2016, 08:35 PM
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http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/...ticle-1.796065

Sgt James O'sullivan, armed with a five shot revolver, interceded in a robbery of a Radio Shack by three or four armed robbers. He fired all his shots, all missed, and didn't have any spare ammo. He paid for his grave error in judgment with his life.
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Old 02-04-2016, 08:50 PM
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It all depends on circumstances and personalities.

My son shot his way clear of some multi-opponent events in Iraq with a handgun when he ran out of ammo for his M-4 or it wasn't present. But he's an exceptional pistoleer, learned well ahead of Army and civilian security contractor service, and wasn't alone.

I used to work as a bank guard and knew that I might face multiple opponents. I thought ahead about available cover, what chances I'd have if the robbers were here, there, wherever in the lobby, who else might be present, etc. What I'd have done with 3 or more thugs would depend on just how the chips fell that day. I was glad to find a better job.

I often relied on hoping that dropping one thug would cause others to flee, but who knows? Some are made of sterner, more skilled stuff than others.

Still, if they saw my uniform and started shooting, I was determined to off as many as I could. This applied in retail stores as well as in banks. Security in such places is a thankless, very risky job.

I'll tell you this: if you're one of the people that I've seen at ranges, sitting down to shoot from a rest at targets closer than 50 feet (as close as five feet!), you aren't cut out to get in a shootout.

If you're a latter day Elmer Keith or Jeff Cooper, you may have a chance.

The late David W. Arnold, who commanded police units in then-Rhodesia, told me that groups of terrorists and rioters usually ran as soon as shot at.

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Old 02-04-2016, 10:15 PM
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As stated by others, it is difficult to prepare and react to such a situation.

Have to use your brain first and see how the situation unfolds. Whether you shoot first or simply observe, there is no right or wrong.

A few years ago, a man that I met at a local shooting range was in a shootout at his jewelry store. A week after the shooting, I walked into his store to see how he was doing. He told me exactly what happened.

He was standing behind the counter about ten feet from the front door. Out of the corner of his eye he sees a man wearing a black jacket with the hood over his head and gun in hand. The store owner drew his gun just as the robber entered. Both started shooting immediately. Bad guy shot twice. Both missed by less than inch. The store owner put two 45 Gold Dots in the bad guys chest. Bad guy dropped the immediately got up and stumbled off. Cops found his body a few miles away.

What can we learn about this? The store owner would probably be dead if he had not seen the bad guy coming. There was only one bad guy. If there was more than one, they would have had to come through the front door one at a time.

In most fast food places, there is almost always a second entrance. That can work for you or against you.

As I have stated before, we must be prepared and we must be flexible enough to think AND act quickly. If we don't we lose any advantage we may have.
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Old 02-04-2016, 11:10 PM
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I would assess the situation and then do what Bruce Willis would do.
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Old 02-05-2016, 02:07 AM
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As stated by others, it is difficult to prepare and react to such a situation.

Have to use your brain first and see how the situation unfolds. Whether you shoot first or simply observe, there is no right or wrong.

A few years ago, a man that I met at a local shooting range was in a shootout at his jewelry store. A week after the shooting, I walked into his store to see how he was doing. He told me exactly what happened.

He was standing behind the counter about ten feet from the front door. Out of the corner of his eye he sees a man wearing a black jacket with the hood over his head and gun in hand. The store owner drew his gun just as the robber entered. Both started shooting immediately. Bad guy shot twice. Both missed by less than inch. The store owner put two 45 Gold Dots in the bad guys chest. Bad guy dropped the immediately got up and stumbled off. Cops found his body a few miles away.

What can we learn about this? The store owner would probably be dead if he had not seen the bad guy coming. There was only one bad guy. If there was more than one, they would have had to come through the front door one at a time.

In most fast food places, there is almost always a second entrance. That can work for you or against you.

As I have stated before, we must be prepared and we must be flexible enough to think AND act quickly. If we don't we lose any advantage we may have.
TWO .45 Gold Dots in the chest and he gets up, staggers off , and is found miles away? Sure makes you realize there is no handgun round that kills like a Star Trek phaser...
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Old 02-05-2016, 02:21 AM
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TWO .45 Gold Dots in the chest and he gets up, staggers off , and is found miles away? Sure makes you realize there is no handgun round that kills like a Star Trek phaser...
I failed to tell the whole story.

His "partner" pulled over and pushed him out of the car then sped off.
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Old 02-05-2016, 05:39 AM
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I would assess the situation and then do what Bruce Willis would do.
.]]

So you'd go bald, marry a moron and make really ****** movies??
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Old 02-05-2016, 07:19 AM
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I failed to tell the whole story.

His "partner" pulled over and pushed him out of the car then sped off.
Kinda thought there might be a getaway driver...
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Old 02-05-2016, 09:21 AM
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I would assess the situation and then do what Bruce Willis would do.
Climb through an air duct in your bare feet?
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Old 02-05-2016, 09:24 AM
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3 or 4 armed goblins, guns already drawn, puts anyone regardless of type of gun, at a disadvantage. If they are spread out in 4 different directions, this is a bad situation gone worse. You'll need to have very good judgement about whether to hold that weapon silent. If you really don't think they are there to commit homicides, then it's not a good idea to open fire with so many innocents as the backstops of now 4-5 shooters. If you think they are going to start really hurting or killing people, then you have to do what you have to do, with whatever gun you have on you.

The real scenario where it would be necessary to shoot against multiple well armed attackers are the Jihadist attacks. You know they are there to kill lots of people, the name of the game is to kill as many of them before they can increase their kill counts. In that scenario, I want an accurate, full size handgun with adequate cartridge power. A 1911 is a good start. Perhaps a full size 9mm loaded with proven bullet designs (Federal 9bp comes to mind). Even a 6-8 shot .357 magnum with a 4 inch barrel can probably do the job if you can stay focused under fire.
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Old 02-05-2016, 09:26 AM
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They used to hang horse thieves. Now days if they even catch an armed robber he'll get 5 years of 3 hots and a cot with 1 day off his sentence for every day he's a good boy. About 20% of the people in our over crowded country would best serve our society as land fill.
Things are not getting better.
When someone proposes additional gun laws that affect those of us who want to keep our options of self defense as wide as possible, I suggest changes to penalties for those convicted of crimes where a deadly weapon is used.

Example would be 30 years for armed robbery loaded or not. No pleas, no parole, no time off.
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Old 02-05-2016, 10:10 AM
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We have jails/prisons bursting at the seems with worthless individuals that will never be reformed or productive in society. They are broken people that can't be fixed. If one of these people is so depraved he's eligible for a 30 yr sentence, he should be executed. There's enough such "people" locked up right now electric chairs would have to be in service 7X24 for years to eliminate them all. One solution I propose is electric bleachers.
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Old 02-05-2016, 10:20 AM
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If you hand over your wallet to a hood, and he starts pulling your credit cards and license, he's going to come across your CCL, then what?
I don't keep my CCL in my wallet .. I keep it in another leather folding License Holder in a different pocket so they wouldn't see it !!
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Old 02-06-2016, 03:27 AM
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Equipment isn't everything. Be aware. Notice exits. Do your best. Even then, sometimes you eat the bear and sometimes the bear eats you.

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Old 02-06-2016, 10:27 PM
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i know this subject is coming up now on this & some other sites .
have learned thru local news in indy , there have been some daylight robberies to eateries while the places are occupied with customers !
very bold & the bad guys are coming into these place in 3's & 4's . it was stated these folks have 2-3 carrying guns . they are starting to REALLY trying to stack the odds in their favor .
i normally carry small revolver with extra ammo .... wondering if maybe throwing a shot gun or a rifle in the trunk might not be a bad idea !
i am not over paranoid but the way this stuff is shaping up i feel like maybe considering the new way to rob & plunder .... maybe it warrants consideration !
What good will a shotgun or rifle in the trunk do you when you're in the restaurant with the armed robbers?
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Old 02-06-2016, 11:01 PM
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Unless a child with her mother is in eminent danger you have to remember..........your not the police!
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Old 02-06-2016, 11:20 PM
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In my mind this is one of those impossible situations. If more than 2 dirt bags enter the establishment there is going to be gunfire. Why else would they come in such numbers? They are not there for the heck of it or the small change it represents. I too believe in being a good credible witness, that said, I refuse to be a victim without struggle. I may not prevail, but, they will not get away without consequence. As a side note, I also have decided to change up my EDC. I carried a 1911 Commander for many, many years and as of 4 years ago had replaced it with my Mdl 19 snub... I am going back to my Commander and adding my 642 as a bug. The 19 gets full time night stand duty from now on.
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Old 02-06-2016, 11:41 PM
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Unless a child with her mother is in eminent danger you have to remember..........your not the police!
That is true the police show up long after all is said and done to take a report and start a search. None of that is for me.
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Old 02-06-2016, 11:45 PM
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In my mind this is one of those impossible situations. If more than 2 dirt bags enter the establishment there is going to be gunfire. Why else would they come in such numbers? They are not there for the heck of it or the small change it represents. I too believe in being a good credible witness, that said, I refuse to be a victim without struggle. I may not prevail, but, they will not get away without consequence. As a side note, I also have decided to change up my EDC. I carried a 1911 Commander for many, many years and as of 4 years ago had replaced it with my Mdl 19 snub... I am going back to my Commander and adding my 642 as a bug. The 19 gets full time night stand duty from now on.
Yep I just changed my EDC to a S. A. 9mm RO Champion it carries well in my IWB with a long tailed cover shirt over it. Don
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Old 02-06-2016, 11:46 PM
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In my mind this is one of those impossible situations. If more than 2 dirt bags enter the establishment there is going to be gunfire. Why else would they come in such numbers? They are not there for the heck of it or the small change it represents. I too believe in being a good credible witness, that said, I refuse to be a victim without struggle. I may not prevail, but, they will not get away without consequence. As a side note, I also have decided to change up my EDC. I carried a 1911 Commander for many, many years and as of 4 years ago had replaced it with my Mdl 19 snub... I am going back to my Commander and adding my 642 as a bug. The 19 gets full time night stand duty from now on.
If by "impossible" you mean to predict what one should do, I agree. However sometime the best solution is to do NOTHING...until something happens that warrants a change in that approach. A few seconds spent observing, and assessing the situation (and getting your gun ready but out of sight, if possible) would be advised, because ultimately your actions should be dictated by what happens - not what you think might happen.

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If you’re inside an establishment when this kind of thing goes down you might find it difficult to get to the trunk of your car.
And if you ARE able to get to the trunk of your car you'd be smarter to get IN the car, drive to a safe distance, call 911 and wait for the police!

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Originally Posted by rock n roll kid View Post
i know this subject is coming up now on this & some other sites .
have learned thru local news in indy , there have been some daylight robberies to eateries while the places are occupied with customers !
very bold & the bad guys are coming into these place in 3's & 4's . it was stated these folks have 2-3 carrying guns . they are starting to REALLY trying to stack the odds in their favor .
i normally carry small revolver with extra ammo .... wondering if maybe throwing a shot gun or a rifle in the trunk might not be a bad idea !
i am not over paranoid but the way this stuff is shaping up i feel like maybe considering the new way to rob & plunder .... maybe it warrants consideration !
What good will a shotgun or rifle in the trunk do you when you're in the restaurant with the armed robbers?
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Old 02-07-2016, 10:31 AM
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As usual with threads like this, we have those who'll observe then decide a course of action. And the others, who've already decided that their first option is engagement. The former could mean you'll wait that split second too long. The latter, you've escalated an already dangerous situation past the point of no return. If they just want what's in the register, let them have it, it's only money and the business is insured for the loss. Are the bad guys gonna come around to every table? Possible, but they should know pretty much every customer has a cell phone and 911's been dialed by many of them. Time is not on their side. What my friends and I do at our weekly breakfast is sit next to the emergency exit, across the room from the register. The excrement jumps off, we're hitting that door, no matter what we're carrying.
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