NYPD/S&W Document Dump

RM Vivas · #1 05-01-2016, 11:57 AM

I'm not sure where to put this.

Ideally there would be a forum dedicated to Research Projects & Materials where serious researchers (can I call myself that?) could share findings with others.

Having pretty much organized all the serial number data, I have to start putting it into context. That will cover several different era's, so I cant just dump it into the post-1960 forum or the pre-war forum, etc.

As I organize the supporting documents I occasionally come across stuff that I think some folks might find interesting. I finally got my old scanner working so I am scanning the interesting stuff and putting it here under this post heading. As I find more stuff in my rather large and remarkably poorly cataloged archives I'll post it in this thread (unless a better place presents itself)

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This is a copy of an NYCPD Voucher History Report for the early 1990'w showing purchases of S&W 640's and Model 64 NY-1's.

RM Vivas · #2 05-01-2016, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RM Vivas

I'm not sure where to put this.

Ideally there would be a forum dedicated to Research Projects & Materials where serious researchers (can I call myself that?) could share findings with others.

Having pretty much organized all the serial number data, I have to start putting it into context. That will cover several different era's, so I cant just dump it into the post-1960 forum or the pre-war forum, etc.

As I organize the supporting documents I occasionally come across stuff that I think some folks might find interesting. I finally got my old scanner working so I am scanning the interesting stuff and putting it here under this post heading. As I find more stuff in my rather large and remarkably poorly cataloged archives I'll post it in this thread (unless a better place presents itself)

================================
Up until 1966, if an officers firearms was found to be defective and in need of repair, he could borrow a “loaner gun” from the Equipment Section.

The loaner guns were released from the Property Clerks Office to the EB.

While I haven’t researched all the serial numbers shown, a couple that I randomly checked came up as having previously been sold to Patrolman. I suspect that when a Patrolman died or left the service, his gun went to the Property Clerks Office. A couple of the other guns I checked did not come up as ex-NYCPD though.

In a separate document that I did not provide here, there is a memo for the EB to return a revolver, M&P #536743 EB#14, to the Property Clerk so that it could be returned to the widow of Capt. William. J Flanigan.

The serial numbers of the loaner guns are pretty broad. There are pre-war, wartime and post-war M&P’s in there.

RM Vivas · #3 05-01-2016, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RM Vivas

I'm not sure where to put this.

Ideally there would be a forum dedicated to Research Projects & Materials where serious researchers (can I call myself that?) could share findings with others.

Having pretty much organized all the serial number data, I have to start putting it into context. That will cover several different era's, so I cant just dump it into the post-1960 forum or the pre-war forum, etc.

As I organize the supporting documents I occasionally come across stuff that I think some folks might find interesting. I finally got my old scanner working so I am scanning the interesting stuff and putting it here under this post heading. As I find more stuff in my rather large and remarkably poorly cataloged archives I'll post it in this thread (unless a better place presents itself)

================================
The evaluation of the feasibility of 9mm pistols involved a 1,000 gun pilot program that was split between Glock, S&W, SIG and Ruger in 1992-1993.

The Department ordered 400 of the S&W 5946 as part of that in 1992.

Notice that the purchase order includes armorer training and spare parts.

I find it interesting that 5 magazines per pistol were specified. one in the gun and two on the belt would total three. My guess is the extra two were for training.

Rule3 · #4 05-01-2016, 02:20 PM

Sure would be interesting to sorta, kinda know where all those guns are today or where they ended up???

RM Vivas · #5 05-02-2016, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RM Vivas

I'm not sure where to put this.

Ideally there would be a forum dedicated to Research Projects & Materials where serious researchers (can I call myself that?) could share findings with others.

Having pretty much organized all the serial number data, I have to start putting it into context. That will cover several different era's, so I cant just dump it into the post-1960 forum or the pre-war forum, etc.

As I organize the supporting documents I occasionally come across stuff that I think some folks might find interesting. I finally got my old scanner working so I am scanning the interesting stuff and putting it here under this post heading. As I find more stuff in my rather large and remarkably poorly cataloged archives I'll post it in this thread (unless a better place presents itself)

================================
This is turning out to be more work than I anticipated, especially with my old scanner.

If anyone wants to donate a legal page sized scanner with auto document feed to The Cause……

Anyway, I’m going through the Smith & Wesson Model 60 NY-1 folder at the moment. Maybe 30-40 pages of interesting stuff.

Copies of invoices from S&W to NYCPD with serial number packing lists.

Of special interest is the departments inventory list by serial number of guns returned to S&W. Many of these guns were refitted to 3 inch and re-sold, giving rise to the mistaken belief that NYCPD had 3 inch M60’s.

Some communications between S&W, NYCPD and the PBA lawyers about recalling/replacing the guns.

It’s a lot of stuff and will take some time. Since we are all about the serial numbers though, here is a shipping invoice:

File 226560-1, 226560-2, 226560-3 and 226560-4 are the first through fourth pages of an invoice from around 8/88 for 832 S&W Model #102308 M60 38 2” RB NYCPD*SP DA revolvers; The Model 60 NY-1. The guns are listed by serial number. Total is 832 guns in this shipment.

RM Vivas · #6 05-02-2016, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RM Vivas

I'm not sure where to put this.

Ideally there would be a forum dedicated to Research Projects & Materials where serious researchers (can I call myself that?) could share findings with others.

Having pretty much organized all the serial number data, I have to start putting it into context. That will cover several different era's, so I cant just dump it into the post-1960 forum or the pre-war forum, etc.

As I organize the supporting documents I occasionally come across stuff that I think some folks might find interesting. I finally got my old scanner working so I am scanning the interesting stuff and putting it here under this post heading. As I find more stuff in my rather large and remarkably poorly cataloged archives I'll post it in this thread (unless a better place presents itself)

================================
File 226559-1 and 226559-2 are the first and second page of an invoice from around 2/88 for 300 S&W Model #102308 M60 38 2” RB NYCPD*SP DA revolvers; The Model 60 NY-1. The guns are listed by serial number. Total is 300 guns in this shipment

RM Vivas · #7 05-02-2016, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rule3

Sure would be interesting to sorta, kinda know where all those guns are today or where they ended up???

A couple thousand went back to S&W who reconfigured them and put them out through the usual channels.

The remainder were held on to by the original purchasing officers and eventually worked their way into the used gun market. Quite a few people here on the forum have them, including one particular fellow who has one of four very special ones!

(I'm looking at you 'skycop')

wheelgun28 · #8 05-02-2016, 07:01 PM

I have a scanner I could give you...

If we can meet someplace, Id rather not ship it but if I had to.

I get to Westchester often, the city sometimes?

Let me know!

RM Vivas · #9 05-02-2016, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RM Vivas

I'm not sure where to put this.

Ideally there would be a forum dedicated to Research Projects & Materials where serious researchers (can I call myself that?) could share findings with others.

Having pretty much organized all the serial number data, I have to start putting it into context. That will cover several different era's, so I cant just dump it into the post-1960 forum or the pre-war forum, etc.

As I organize the supporting documents I occasionally come across stuff that I think some folks might find interesting. I finally got my old scanner working so I am scanning the interesting stuff and putting it here under this post heading. As I find more stuff in my rather large and remarkably poorly cataloged archives I'll post it in this thread (unless a better place presents itself)

================================
Purchase order for 600 S&W Mdel 640-s' $275.23 each. Order total $165138.00!
File 640-226558

RM Vivas · #10 05-03-2016, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RM Vivas

I'm not sure where to put this.

Ideally there would be a forum dedicated to Research Projects & Materials where serious researchers (can I call myself that?) could share findings with others.

Having pretty much organized all the serial number data, I have to start putting it into context. That will cover several different era's, so I cant just dump it into the post-1960 forum or the pre-war forum, etc.

As I organize the supporting documents I occasionally come across stuff that I think some folks might find interesting. I finally got my old scanner working so I am scanning the interesting stuff and putting it here under this post heading. As I find more stuff in my rather large and remarkably poorly cataloged archives I'll post it in this thread (unless a better place presents itself)
.

================================
File 60-226548 is a one page invoice from around 3/88 for 200 S&W Model #102308 M60 38 2” RB NYCPD*SP DA revolvers; The Model 60 NY-1. The guns are listed by serial number. Total is 200 guns in this shipment.

File 60-226554 is a one page invoice from around 10/88 for 23 S&W Model #102308 M60 38 2” RB NYCPD*SP DA revolvers; The Model 60 NY-1. The guns are listed by serial number. Total is 23 guns in this shipment.

File 60-226556 is a one page invoice from around 9/88 for 109 S&W Model #102308 M60 38 2” RB NYCPD*SP DA revolvers; The Model 60 NY-1. The guns are listed by serial number. Total is 109 guns in this shipment.

File 60-226557 is a one page invoice from around 10/88 for 37 S&W Model #102308 M60 38 2” RB NYCPD*SP DA revolvers; The Model 60 NY-1. The guns are listed by serial number. Total is 37 guns in this shipment.

File 60-226562 is a one page invoice from around 3/88 for 71 S&W Model #102308 M60 38 2” RB NYCPD*SP DA revolvers; The Model 60 NY-1. The guns are listed by serial number. Total is 71 guns in this shipment.

RM Vivas · #11 05-03-2016, 08:50 PM

I'm not sure where to put this.

Ideally there would be a forum dedicated to Research Projects & Materials where serious researchers (can I call myself that?) could share findings with others.

Having pretty much organized all the serial number data, I have to start putting it into context. That will cover several different era's, so I cant just dump it into the post-1960 forum or the pre-war forum, etc.

As I organize the supporting documents I occasionally come across stuff that I think some folks might find interesting. I finally got my old scanner working so I am scanning the interesting stuff and putting it here under this post heading. As I find more stuff in my rather large and remarkably poorly cataloged archives I'll post it in this thread (unless a better place presents itself).
=================================
This is a continuation of posts that have useful information on the S&W Model 60 NY-1 as made for the New York City Police Department.

The attached files are copies of the S&W packing invoice for each shipment of guns. The serial numbers of the guns included in the shipment are listed on the invoice.

================================
File 60-226555 is a one page invoice from around 7/15/87 for 100 S&W Model #102308 M60 38 2” RB NYCPD*SP DA revolvers; The Model 60 NY-1. The guns are listed by serial number. Total is 100 guns in this shipment.

File 60-226549 is a one page invoice from around 1/88 for 22 S&W Model #102308 M60 38 2” RB NYCPD*SP DA revolvers; The Model 60 NY-1. The guns are listed by serial number. Total is 22 guns in this shipment.

File 60-226551 is a one page invoice from around 10/88 for 48 S&W Model #102308 M60 38 2” RB NYCPD*SP DA revolvers; The Model 60 NY-1. The guns are listed by serial number. Total is 48 guns in this shipment.

File 60-226552 is a one page invoice date unknown for 129 S&W Model #102308 M60 38 2” RB NYCPD*SP DA revolvers; The Model 60 NY-1. The guns are listed by serial number. Total is 129 guns in this shipment.

hanno · #12 05-05-2016, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rule3

Sure would be interesting to sorta, kinda know where all those guns are today or where they ended up???

Many of the Model 64s found their way to J&G Sales.

In 2011, you could get one in VG condition for $320.

Road Rat · #13 05-05-2016, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanno

Many of the Model 64s found their way to J&G Sales.

In 1911, you could get one in VG condition for $320.

You know, somehow I really doubt that!!!

hanno · #14 05-05-2016, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Road Rat

You know, somehow I really doubt that!!!

OK, 2011.

Fixed it and thanks.

Kernel Crittenden · #15 05-05-2016, 04:32 PM

RM,

It's great what you're doing, and very beneficial to the S&W community. This is not meant to be a criticism, but some of the images are so small they're difficult to read. If you could post them at a little higher resolution, like what's used on some of the later images, they would be more useful.

This forum will host images as large as 1024 x 768 and 800 kb. That would be the ideal size.

It should be possible to use Character Recognition software to read these jpg images, pull out the serial numbers, then sort them into alphabetical and numeric order. Otherwise, it's a scavenger hunt to find or verify a single given s/n.

RM Vivas · #16 05-06-2016, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kernel Crittenden

RM,

It's great what you're doing, and very beneficial to the S&W community. This is not meant to be a criticism, but some of the images are so small they're difficult to read. If you could post them at a little higher resolution, like what's used on some of the later images, they would be more useful.

This forum will host images as large as 1024 x 768 and 800 kb. That would be the ideal size.

It should be possible to use Character Recognition software to read these jpg images, pull out the serial numbers, then sort them into alphabetical and numeric order. Otherwise, it's a scavenger hunt to find or verify a single given s/n.

The images are scanned at 600dpi. I try to save them in a save that is legible but not space consuming. When I click on the images in a post they usually open up at a readable size and if I click on them again, they get a bit larger.

I have most of the serial numbers typed into a database that sorts them by serial number, date and book. For our purposes though I think miost people would rather see the actual invoice with all the data and markings than just a simple plain line of text that could have been typed by nyone that says "hey you're gun was sold on xxxx".

I have a few more scans that I need to post that are scanned at the size/resolution that I usually do. Once I start scanning some more in I'll see about upping the resolution and size.

Eventually I'm going to the all the M60 NY-1 invoices and condense them into one .PDF file that I'll have on the website.

RM Vivas · #17 05-06-2016, 03:57 PM

I'm not sure where to put this.

Ideally there would be a forum dedicated to Research Projects & Materials where serious researchers (can I call myself that?) could share findings with others.

Having pretty much organized all the serial number data, I have to start putting it into context. That will cover several different era's, so I cant just dump it into the post-1960 forum or the pre-war forum, etc.

As I organize the supporting documents I occasionally come across stuff that I think some folks might find interesting. I finally got my old scanner working so I am scanning the interesting stuff and putting it here under this post heading. As I find more stuff in my rather large and remarkably poorly cataloged archives I'll post it in this thread (unless a better place presents itself).
=================================
This is a continuation of posts that have useful information on the S&W Model 60 NY-1 as made for the New York City Police Department.

The attached files are copies of the S&W packing invoice for each shipment of guns. The serial numbers of the guns included in the shipment are listed on the invoice.

================================
File 60-226561-1 and 60-226561-2 is a two page invoice of indeterminate date for 364 S&W Model #102308 M60 38 2” RB NYCPD*SP DA revolvers; The Model 60 NY-1. The guns are listed by serial number. Total is 364 guns in this shipment.

File 60-226553-1 and 60-226553-2 is a two page invoice grom 7/23/87 for 261 S&W Model #102308 M60 38 2” RB NYCPD*SP DA revolvers; The Model 60 NY-1. The guns are listed by serial number. Total is 261 guns in this shipment.

RM Vivas · #18 05-06-2016, 04:10 PM

I'm not sure where to put this.

Ideally there would be a forum dedicated to Research Projects & Materials where serious researchers (can I call myself that?) could share findings with others.

Having pretty much organized all the serial number data, I have to start putting it into context. That will cover several different era's, so I cant just dump it into the post-1960 forum or the pre-war forum, etc.

As I organize the supporting documents I occasionally come across stuff that I think some folks might find interesting. I finally got my old scanner working so I am scanning the interesting stuff and putting it here under this post heading. As I find more stuff in my rather large and remarkably poorly cataloged archives I'll post it in this thread (unless a better place presents itself).
=================================
This is a continuation of posts that have useful information on the S&W Model 60 NY-1 as made for the New York City Police Department.

The attached files are copies of the S&W packing invoice for each shipment of guns. The serial numbers of the guns included in the shipment are listed on the invoice.

================================
File 60-226550-1 and 60-226550-2 is a two page invoice of indeterminate date for 300 S&W Model #102308 M60 38 2” RB NYCPD*SP DA revolvers; The Model 60 NY-1. The guns are listed by serial number. Total is 300 guns in this shipment.

wheelgun28 · #19 05-07-2016, 08:44 AM

Thank you for posting all of this!

So far I have found one of my three on the list, 9/3/1987.

It must have been a royal pain to receive these into inventory. No in numerical order, no line items. Unless a packing slip or something was better, a big box of guns and a slip of paper?

Also it would seem they produced the guns in a big batch or two and stored them till ready for shipment. I guess the didnt use LIFO or FIFO inventory systems

wheelgun28 · #20 05-07-2016, 09:02 AM

Another question comes up from time to time, is NY-1 Model 60 and 60-2.

I haven't found much about this, many of the dash twos found seem to have been returned to da/sa. That leads to the question were they stamped dash 2 at time of rework?

Any thoughts?

JSR III · #21 05-07-2016, 10:29 AM

I would contact Lee and see if there is somewhere that this could be stored in one file. It would be a shame to let all of this information and your hard work go for naught.

How many officers are there in the NYPD? In your first post if I read it correctly, they ordered 1,000 pair of handcuffs alone.

For a city where guns are hard to own, S&W sure made a bunch of money thanks to the NYPD. I wonder if they are buying more S&W's now that Frank Reagan is the PC?

S. Kelly · #22 05-07-2016, 11:09 PM

Great to hear from you RM Vivas!!! It's been a while.

RM Vivas · #23 05-09-2016, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSR III

I would contact Lee and see if there is somewhere that this could be stored in one file. It would be a shame to let all of this information and your hard work go for naught.

How many officers are there in the NYPD? In your first post if I read it correctly, they ordered 1,000 pair of handcuffs alone.

For a city where guns are hard to own, S&W sure made a bunch of money thanks to the NYPD. I wonder if they are buying more S&W's now that Frank Reagan is the PC?

At it's height during the middle/late 1990's the department had a shade under 40,000 officers.

To put that in perspective, the Canadian army at that time numbered 30,000.

The NYCPD has more men under arms than the armies of a number of countries. If you took just the Brooklyn guys who had weekends off you could win an all out war with Jamaica! (and a number of other small countries!)

RM Vivas · #24 05-13-2016, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RM Vivas

I'm not sure where to put this.

Ideally there would be a forum dedicated to Research Projects & Materials where serious researchers (can I call myself that?) could share findings with others.

Having pretty much organized all the serial number data, I have to start putting it into context. That will cover several different era's, so I cant just dump it into the post-1960 forum or the pre-war forum, etc.

As I organize the supporting documents I occasionally come across stuff that I think some folks might find interesting. I finally got my old scanner working so I am scanning the interesting stuff and putting it here under this post heading. As I find more stuff in my rather large and remarkably poorly cataloged archives I'll post it in this thread (unless a better place presents itself)

==========================
I have about a dozen more pages of invoices to post and will do so in the very near future.

Amongst the documents I have are a three way communication via letters between S&W, the Patrolmans Benevolent Association and the law firm representing the PBA against S&W/NYCPD.

These documents detail what the issue was and how S&W in cooperation with the PBA chose to resolve it. These documents dn't have serial number data but they do describe what the problem was, S&W's attempts to correct it and the ultimate resolution of the matter.

Is this worth scanning and posting or is it too esoteric for the forum. It'll be in The Book (one day!) but I'm not sure if it belongs here or not.

RM Vivas · #25 05-17-2016, 09:25 PM

I scanned the last four Model 60 NY-1 invoices, adding an additional 1,200 serial numbers to the ones posted here already.

The total number of guns by serial number listed on these invoices is 3,996. When you add the four "special" guns that were made up (and one went to a member of his forum), 4,000 of these guns can be accounted for by serial number. I suspect that's the entire production.

Rather than post images of them here, I converted them to .pdf files and posted them to my website. They are in an area that is under construction and not accessible from the usual main page.

The .pdf format should allow for the images to be read more easily; a couple people mentioned that the images could stand to be larger.

I listed all the invoices on my page. The newest one's which have not yet been posted here are 60-226547, 60-226563, 60-226564 and 60-226565.

The direct link is: NYPD Guns Page - Smith & Wesson Model 60 NY-1
(I think it's kosher to put that link there; if it isn't let me know and I'll fix it)

That should end the Model 60 NY-1 serial number thread. I'll be putting the supporting non-serial number documentation on the Model 60 NY-1 page on my website.

wmbaumgarten · #26 09-14-2021, 04:42 PM

Does anybody have copies of invoices 60-226547, 60-226563, 60-226564, and/or 60-226565 they can post here? The link Mr. Vivas references is dead. Thanks.