General Custer and his cavalry ran into a lot more Indians than they were expecting. I am a historian, but I know many of you know more about this particular incident than I do.

re: Bad tactical mistake by Custer..........& the red man "cleaned " his clock.

__________________
S&W Accumulator

1st rule of combat - Never split your forces until you know the strength of the enemy.

2nd rule of combat - Always bring the Gatling gun.

The best account of the event is "Son of the Morning Star". Well written.

I agree and the TV/movie series starring Gary Cole was superb.


The movie stayed true to the book and a lot of effort was made
to show correct uniforms and equipment from the 1860s into the 1870s.

Regarding the defeat, an excellent novel raises the question of what if Custer survived but face a court martial. The military historian who wrote the book concludes that while the defeat was unfortunate, Custer was exonerated since he did what he was expected to do.

Among the points was that the Army always expected the Indians to scatter and as far as considering being outnumbered,
the Army figured it was always outnumbered by the Indians. The attack was to scatter the Indian horses, thus leaving
the Indian men with their families at a total disadvantage for
"mopping up" later.

Certainly the most readable account. But if you're a Little Bighorn "buff", I highly recommend John S. Gray's "Custer's Last Campaign: Mitch Boyer and the Little Bighorn Reconstructed". While a bit dry and tedious at times, Gray makes full use of the results of the 1980s archaeological digs and uses time-motion analysis to reconstruct what happened and, just as important, what in the popular story couldn't have happened. He uses the Indian scout Mitch Boyer, whose remains were actually positively identified during the dig, as his hook, and offers some interesting reassessments of Custer's role.

I've read several interesting books on Custer and the battle, (from both sides), but there is nothing quite so telling as walking the actual battleground and feeling the history in your bones.

A very moving experience that my wife and I were able experience some years back. (After we left we went to the scene of the "Fetterman massacre" and visited several of the forts from the Wyoming - Montana border on down to Ft. Laramie.)

A very moving history indeed.

__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS

I've been through the battlefield twice and ridden my Harley through much of the surrounding SD/WY country. Calvary tactics at that time were very ingrained toward the dumb savages that, in the face of a fixed fight, scatter and run. Accounts I have read indicated that some decent scouting and paying attention to what scouting did occur could have changed the outcome but it's hard believing Custer would alter his "hell-bent" attitude!

The archaeological work done a few years ago following some prairie fires was first rate.

__________________
Dennis
SWCA #2409, SWHF #353

We were on a motorcycle trip at the time as well. CO, WY, MT etc.

Agree about the work performed after that series of fires allowed a number of new artifacts to be uncovered.

BTW, a few more books worthy of consideration:

"The Last Stand" by Nathaniel Philbrick

"Wooden Leg: A Warrior Who Fought Custer" Interpreted by Thomas B. Marquis

"I Fought With Custer: The Story of Sergeant Windolph, Last Survivor of the Battle of the Little Big Horn" as told to Frazier and Robert Hunt

__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS

I get the same feelings when im at the Alamo.

Yep. Even a bad hangover from a way too rowdy prior evening didn't keep me from a feeling that I was on some hallowed ground and among very strong spirits.

__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS

In spite of being a Brazilian I always felt moved and interested in the Battle of Little Big Horn.Is one of the places I would like to visit before I check out. Why do I feel like this , you may wonder or ask? I don´t know, but America is in my heart since my boyhood. The movies I saw then must have something to do on this. My father´s ( still alive, 92 and counting) heritage on fishing and hunting which led me out to my firearms interest also took part on my mind set and way of seeing the world.
There is also a very interesting book on the battle by the aforementioned Thomas B.Marquis - Keep the Last Bullet for Yourself.Has anyone in this forum read it ?

Regards, Ray

The first time I was there a guy pulled up near us, took out a clarinet, stood there and played the "Garry Owen" beautifully. Under the circumstances it was quite moving.

Custer was an egomaniac, a glory hound, and a fool.

I have a copy of the book, and I've read it several times. His evidence seems to fly in the face of that of other books written, especially after the "fire".

I know there was great fear of being captured alive by the troopers, and the thought of being tortured by hostile Indians. However, several other authors have rebutted his arguments. It's kind of hard to imagine mass suicide.

It is a quite interesting attempt at revisionist history. I more or less accidentally had the book assigned to me when I took a Western History class in grad school. The author was a doctor on the Arapahoe-Cheyenne reservation in the 1910s/20s and talked to many of the surviving Indian veterans of the battle; the "Wooden Leg" book mentioned above also originated from that. I'm sure there was something to his theory, although he likely vastly overstated his case. He wrote his book in 1926, but his ideas were considered too unpalatable and he found no publisher. Not until the centennial 1976 was the book printed. Even if you don't buy his thesis of mass suicide, it does make interesting reading.

A clarinet? NO,NO, NO! If you're going to play Garry Owen, then you need to play it on a banjo. Either a 5-string or better yet on my much beloved 10-string banjo.

Not to get to nerdy, but I think the tune isn't about a guy named Garry Owen, but it's Garryowen after a place in Ireland where it originated ....

No disrespect intended toward you but IMHO anyone showing proper respect via their chosen instrument would be worthy of a nod of approval.

(Much as I love the banjo, one of several instruments played by my Sicilian immigrant maternal grandfather back in the day.)

__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS

The failed attack was precipitated by Reno. According to a book written by one of the men under Reno, he was drunk when he ordered the first attack. Custer was waiting for Benteen to arrive. Benteen was taking his sweet time to get there. It was only after Reno was being over-run that Custer attacked. IF Reno had waited to attack, IF Benteen had arrived, then Custer would have launched a simultaneous three prong attack on the village. The results could have been very different.

Been there many times. Best time to go is around the end of June or into July when the temperatures hover around 100 deg. Spend a full day in the sun and you get a real good idea of what those guys were dealing with in terms of thirst and heat stroke. Bad enough without being shot at too!

Most certainly. Add to that the dust from hundreds of horses, and many of Custer's troopers likely died in the melee from indirect arrow hits without ever seeing much of the Indians up close. That fits with the archaeological evidence, the ratio of recovered carbine to revolver bullets showing that not very many soldiers got around to even using their handguns.

I had the opportunity to walk the battlefield extensively back in the early summer of 1983, which coincidentally was just before the fires that triggered the digs over next few years. It was a most impressive experience, diminished only slightly by my excessive paranoia about rattlesnakes .

For those of you who have not had the opportunity to visit the Greasy Grass ( so called Little Big Horn ), I'll post a few photos so you can get a sense of the battlefield.

Attached Images

	DSC_0143.jpg (113.5 KB, 47 views)
	DSC_0142.jpg (123.2 KB, 48 views)
	DSC_0140.jpg (94.4 KB, 41 views)
	DSC_0139.jpg (93.0 KB, 43 views)
	DSC_0151.jpg (108.4 KB, 41 views)

Sometime you just have to follow orders,something Gen Custer didn't do that day.You make your bed,you lie in it when things go bad.R.I.P. General & 7th Calvary!

__________________
Life is short,live it fully.

Im not a vet not a tactician and understand his reasons for not bringing them along but, I still would have brought the Gatlin guns and other artillery along anyway.

The Gatling Gun was cumbersome, needed four to seven men and extra horses to move it, provide ammunition and was only
good if the opponent was willing to line up and march toward you en masse or as an assault artillery piece against a fixed site.

Regretting that Custer didn't have one or more is like also regretting that the cavalry saber had been retired and were no
longer carried by such units as the 7th.

And alas, pity for poor Custer, Army regulation by then even for general officers, which he wasn't, required short haircuts--no more flowing locks.

And alas, for John Wayne playing a cavalry man, he was too heavy especially in later years. Army regulation limited troopers' weights so a horse wasn't burdened by more than 210 or so pounds total, including all equipment, ammo, saddle, etc.
I'm sure some officers were the exception.