A LEO came into my ER with a GSW. Turns out that LEO and others were serving a warrant and one of them got startled and knocked down the stairs by the subject's family dog bolting. That officer discharged his weapon accidentally wounding another officer. This is the second time I have seen a situation like this in less than a year. A coworker of mine and I were talking about the situation and he said that back when he worked in Los Angeles there was a rash of LA county deputies shooting themselves and others when the department switched from Berretta 92's to the S&W M&P's. I would think that agencies would either issue weapons with some safety features or train these guys to stay off the trigger. What gives?

Sounds like the firearms staff at the P.D. is falling short in their safety training... Finger off the trigger until you've made the conscious decision to shoot.

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Not the guns fault.

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For most of the 20th century, U.S. cops carried a handgun with no separate mechanical safety, the double action revolver. One of the "features" of the Glock and most other striker-fired semiautos is that they work just like the revolver in that they have no safety to forget to use. That was a big selling feature.

Few police agencies have enough budget dedicated to firearms training. Many only qualify once or twice a year. So they like simple.

The main factor driving agency purchases is cost. Glocks are inexpensive to manufacture, they have fewer parts than, say, a Colt 1911 or a Beretta 92. Guns are usually purchased by competitive bidding according to specification by the agency, such as caliber and finish. If you know how, your required specifications can narrow it down to whatever the writer really wants to buy.

Glocks are reliable, relatively inexpensive, mechanically simple, durable, can be had in many chamberings and sizes. I see their appeal.

That said, I carried my own Colt 1911s for 22 years. The mechanical safety was an advantage over no safety, I felt.

The only way to make a handgun "safe" is to make it so that it can't be loaded with cartridges. As the former Spetznaz soldier said, "Of course ees not safe! Ees GON!!!"

I'd agree with lack of training. Just because your job requires a firearm doesn't mean you are proficient or a firearm enthusiast. It just means that if you were hired you passed a minimum requirement.

There are fields that require a firearm for employment. Not everybody spends their spare time at the range, and not everybody learned safe firearm practices. But everybody needs a job. Unfortunately, like in every field, you don't always get the most suited candidate.

Hope your GSW pulls through ok.

1. Back in the day, the ease of transition from DA revolvers gave the Glock a leg up on the DA/SA wondernines. Once established, market dominence is a powerful thing.

2. Glock has an excellent LE specific sales/ support dept.

3. Pricing is very competitive.

4. Notwithstanding the infamous .40 KaBooms, they are functional and reliable.


And most if the gripes aren't specifically about Glock per se. They would be just as relevant applied to dao-ish striker fried pistols generally.

Agree with others, it's not the gun but the person using it.

When S&W revolvers were popular departments would sometimes order them with double-action only to prevent officers from cocking them, and then firing them accidentally when the adrenaline was flowing.

It really is just that simple.

Like some of the others have said, this aint a Glock problem.

Well, there is one thing that could have been improved, the dropping the striker to field strip. And the earliest plastic shipping/ informal storage boxes ( when G17 was the only Glock) required the trigger to be pulled to be put into the box.

But in general, the issues are generic to dao-ish striker guns.

IIRC...... the ATF classified the Glock as a DAO firearm ..which made Mayors and Chief feel all warm and fuzzy....but with a short 6lb trigger pull. Later NY got the NY 12lb. Trigger

Glocks were sold cheap vs others like Smith,Sig and Beretta...... and Glock bought/took in trade the Depts old guns ........ which they then sold off.

Not only is it a training issue but the guy falling down the stairs is a fluke. What happens when you fall down? Body tenses! He could have just as easily taken the safety off as he was falling.

HK VP
Glock
M&P
Walther PPQ
Walther PPS
Sig 320
CZ P10
Springfield XD

All these guns function the same.


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I was present at the incident which caused Glock to put warning labels on their boxes to keep numbskulls from trying to fit a loaded weapon over the post that went through the trigger guard.

Never fear, however. The agent won a settlement for several tens of thousands of dollars and was later promoted into and up the management chain. You can't make this stuff up.

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642-1, M&P15 TS

And we have a winner...

No disrespect intended...But if you ACT like Barney, CARRY like Barney.

Let's send the LA police force for one day of remedial firearms training. That's about 10,000 officers for eight hours each at a median pay of roughly $30 an hour. That comes to around $2,400,000! And that doesn't include the cost of benefits like retirement, payroll taxes, or health care! Do you really think a LA city council would approve that? Or would they rather spend it on some vote buying feel good program?

Three things cause negligent discharges in tense situations, balance disruption , startle response and sympathetic muscle contraction . Adrenaline increases the likelihood .
One of the pioneer studies was an officer in foot pursuit closing a hand on the suspect collar also closing his hand on the weapon causing it to discharge . When the hand closes the finger slips from its position on the frame to inside the trigger guard . This example was with a revolver .
As reflex actions are difficult if not impossible to train out muzzle discipline is about the only thing left , universal cover mode , laser safety rule . Muzzle discipline is difficult to maintain when tumbling down stairs .
Dr. Lee , forgive me if I am quoting the wrong source , time studies have held in court that a suspect decision to flee and an officer decision to fire could result in the suspect being shot in the back also did a study on finger discipline . He found that in high stress situations highly trained SWAT officers in stacks would transition back and forth from finger discipline to a reassuring touch of the trigger . This was illustrated to me by a N R A trainer with a bullhorn .
One of the things that would raise suspicion that a person had a weapon was that reassuring touch of it when you appeared at the street corner in a marked unit . Those males among us touch a part of our anatomy reassuringly as if it could have been misplaced .
Somethings can be changed by training somethings only understood .

I wonder what a half dozen wrongful death and/or personal injury suits cost... nevermind the hit to their public image...?

I agree with the training issue then there is the BUT. NY perceived an issue with the Glock and mandated a 12 pound trigger. Get the drift? Yes there were negligent discharges with revolvers..evidently not as many as there have been with Glocks. Seriously..Look at it this way..The only real safety on a Glock or any that work the same way is between the ears of the person carrying it. Quite often they are in VERY tense situations(BTDT). In my opinion with no intensive training either a revolver or a semi with a safety is what police officers should carry. Not knocking cops...but I feel most are not real gun guys..by that I mean like some on this board who practice practice practice. I personally know quite a few who have hardly ever shot their duty arm..and have never personally cleaned it. Back when I had my shop I would clean any cop's gun..while he waited. Not a strip and clean just take the rust off brush the dirt out and make them better....and operable. Some actually shot a few rounds on my range outside the shop.. Glocks and their ilk are dangerous in my opinion. All that being said..being startled falling down and discharging could have happened with any firearm(coulda been a shotgun!). So this is not just a Glock problem. I also hope they didn't charge the owner of the dog with something over this.

So if the officer had tumbled down the stairs with his finger on the trigger of a double action revolver, we know for a fact that it would not have discharged? Only an evil Glock will do this?

And again we hear the danger of disassembling a Glock with a loaded chamber. Stories of guys who shot themselves in the foot, leg, or hand doing so. So it's Glock's fault that some people can not or will not follow the most basic rules of firearm safety?

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To echo the sentiments of others on this thread, it isn't the guns fault. Contrary to my userID, I'm not necessarily a fanboy, but guns are inherently dangerous things, when the trigger is pressed, it goes bang. Glocks are lightweight, easy to work on, extremely reliable, and affordable (perhaps the most attractive on the list to a large PD)...sure there are other guns that make the list, but price and manual of arms make the Glock a very attractive option for PDs

Also as posted above I learned the tactile moves made by some who carried a gun(in Md that was a no no). Taught to me by a black Baltimore City Cop who learned on the city streets. He then moved to the Airport in Baltimore. He thought it was a little safer or so he said. It really wasn't. Just a bit more compact small city. I have had occasion to thank Dan more than once.

The trigger was mandated to make the pull more akin to a revolver as that was what many or most of the LEOs back in the day were used to. (I started my career as an LEO with revolvers in NY. Later transitioned to cocked and locked .45's and then other semi-autos including Glocks.) Doing so provided a sense of familiarity with the "feel" of the trigger.

If those making the choice for the agencies felt the firearm was not a safe pistol they could have opted for any of a number of other firearms.

My last outfit decided that carrying cocked and locked was no longer a safe practice and made us stop carrying our .45's.

Later they had us turn in our issued S&W 6906s for Glock 19's and 26's. Other than one idiot that tried to put his loaded gun back in the shipping box (and ended up shooting himself, see my recent post), there were no ADs or NDs that I can recall.

Glocks are not unsafe. Folks who don't train and don't know what they are doing with a firearm are unsafe.

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642-1, M&P15 TS

When all bad guys go back to revolvers (and pinkie promise not to cheat) maybe LEOs will reconsider 18 rounds at the ready. In reality, and perhaps unfortunately, this debate was settled many years ago.


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[QUOTE=blues7;139425748Glocks are not unsafe. Folks who don't train and don't know what they are doing with a firearm are unsafe.[/QUOTE]

I agree. That statement also includes cops. But they aren't the only ones having negligent discharges. All departments need more real training though. Didn't a famous law officer once shoot someone in another room with an unloaded handgun??.And he was a gun guy.

We know for a fact that Glocks have a lighter trigger pull than a double action revolver, so there is less margin for error.

The spec for a Glock is a 5.5# trigger pull. S&W doesn't list that spec, but I understand that revolver trigger pulls are in the 12#-10# range.

SIGs are apparently available with a DA/SA scheme, where the first trigger pull is 10#.

I have a large amount of experience on police ranges.....

What really gets my attention is the amount of unintentional discharges when re-holstering a Glock.

Not blaming the Glock, just the operator's negligence.

A SIG really presents a concern too if the operator forgets to use the de-cocker before re-holstering.

In the old days, I don't believe I ever saw an unintentional discharge with a revolver (talking police ranges).

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You may (or may not) find this striker control device of interest...

Mine should be arriving in a week or so.

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642-1, M&P15 TS

Back when I owned and operated a video production company we did a lot of legally related work. We did depositions involving accidental pistol discharges in 3 cases(one involved a firearms instructor) and the firearms in question were all Glocks. NO other make of pistol accidental discharge was ever handled by us to the best on my knowledge.
To this day I have never used a Glock as a concealed carry firearm nor do I even own one.
Jim

I've been carrying them since 1988 and carrying AIWB. Obviously our personal anecdotal experience is hardly statistically relevant.

That said, how many Glocks are out there in the hands of the public as well as state, local and federal agencies (just in the U.S.)? Take that number and then determine what percent of one percent the total number of human error or mechanical failures represent.

Folks who are unwilling to train or maintain / refresh their training with their firearms are a danger to themselves and the public at large.

I feel it is unfair to blame the firearm for human failure. If folks want to keep the manual of arms simple, they should practice and become proficient with revolvers which remain relevant despite their limited number of rounds.

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642-1, M&P15 TS

Blues,
I never knew you switched to a Glock!! What do you EDC in that far,far away little mountain village you live in now? I have a G30s but mosty carry my Kimber cocked & locked,a S&W 2"60 is my secondary.Give my best to your wife.
Jim

I bought a bunch of guns from a fellow locally herer. One I passed on was a Glock in 40 cal. He was loading for it(a little hot) and the frame had cracked down both sides(alright a LOT hot). Surprising thing was he had taken some kind of epoxy and fixed the crack and the gun still shot fine. Needless to say..I did not buy any of the reloaded ammo he wanted to sell me either. While I don't like Glocks I must admire that they work fine and was amazed that gun still worked. The one good thing I can say about Glocks is that they are pretty economical to buy. Especially for governmental agencies who usually do the low bid route. I don't want to have one pointed at me though. I once walked into a C store robbery and got to see a S&W 19 up close and personal in my face. Almost had to change my drawers. That cop was stressed to say the least. I think I would have been in more danger if he had carried a Glock.

Hiya Jim,

I was carrying Glocks daily before we ever met back in the 90's.

I EDC a G26 or 19. For around the property, walking the dog or traipsing down the mountain to the mailbox the S&W 642-1 suffices.

When there's bigger varmints afoot I occasionally carry my 686+ for a change of pace.

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642-1, M&P15 TS

More likely they will spend several times that amount in bad shooting settlements .. so the sending of the officers for more training could be cost effective !!

Don't do this:


When you should be doing this:

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642-1, M&P15 TS

I assume most of us are on this forum due to our admiration of revolvers--but please be serious. Sending a patrolman out on a modern day beat with a six-shooter is nothing short of criminal. Modern, striker-fired, higher capacity handguns are a must for those who "protect and serve".

NDs are a direct result of training (or lack thereof). LEOs must embrace departmental training AND maintain a high level of personal (unpaid) training to stay competent and safe.


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I don't have the slightest problem with Glocks, insofar as the design or manual of arms go.

Of course I have respect for them and ANY loaded firearm, and take the time to learn how to safely handle them.

Anybody who carries a loaded firearm, yet refuses to learn how to safely handle it, even if he has to do so on his own time, and at his own expense, is criminally negligent and deserves whatever legal misfortunes befall him due to that laziness.

Likewise, any governmental agency which either issues or mandates a particular firearm, and fails to adequately train and retrain its personnel should be held civilly liable for any harm done by those personnel with those firearms which can be traced to inadequate initial and reinforcement training.

I believe there are plenty of high quality DA pistols with hammers suitable for law enforcement. (Sig, HK, Beretta,). My home defense piece is an M9.
BTW it was everything I could do to save that officer but they will recover. I suspect that their career in law enforcement is over.

A lot depends on what is interpreted as a "safety" - on a pistol with a frame mounted safety, the firearm will not fire with the safety engaged (assuming of course that it is mechanically functional). However, much has been written about those who may not train regularly fumbling with or forgetting a safety - or whether it is safe in the up or in the down position - under duress. So an acceptable solution has become a monstrous trigger pull, likely in combination with a grip safety and/or trigger safety. One scenario is that, with gun in hand (depressing the grip safety), finger properly OFF the trigger, the holstering action allows some shirt material or something to depress the trigger, and since all conditions are met, the weapon fires. Obviously, holster design can be important. As far as forgetting to use a decocker, well you can forget to engage a safety, or forget to lower a hammer, etc, etc someone will find a way to defeat just about anything.

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Sorry to read of the accident. Hope the officer recovers completely. Have been using Glocks since they bought out the 17L. G-21, 22 ... fine pistols. Never had one ever discharge except when I pulled the trigger. Today at a indoor range ... shooting 1911 and S&W revolver... both worked just perfectly. No discharges until the trigger was pulled. Amazing thing is, if you keep your trigger finger out of the trigger guard until you are read to prepare and make a shot, the gun just doesn't go off!

Are GLocks more or less safe than a 1911? It depends. Poorly handled pistols are dangerous because they are handled poorly. There are lots of folks who have shot stuff... and even themselves b/c they failed to handle a 1911 properly. The same goes with Glocks, S&W, etc. It isn't rocket science. Handling a gun requires due care and attention. Carelessness combined with a loaded gun can lead to really tragic consequences.

Is the problem a lack of training? Possibly. But, if a officer is going to carry a gun or any other equipment, he needs to take the initiative to learn how to use that piece of equipment. That applies to a car, a pair of handcuffs, pepper spray or a pistol. The officer must be responsible for his own self and not expect someone else to be responsible for him. JMHO. Sincerely. bruce.

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Beyond the serious issues cited above, I've wondered whether there are any statistics showing a higher incidence of officers being shot when an officer's Glock is grabbed by a perp as compared to when a pistol with a mechanical safety is involved and the officer(s) have a moment to react.

Especially while moving in unfamiliar surroundings.

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Apple early in their existence practically gave computers to schools. The kids grew up with them and bought them when older.

Glock offered very deep discounts to police officers from their inception. Not only did other dept. follow suit, everybody wants one because that's what the police use. Smart.

Besides the fact that Glocks are super reliable. (Ugly as home made sin, though)

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Want to know why there are so many anecdotal stories about idjits shooting themselves with Glocks?

Because there are a lot of idjits with Glocks.

Want to know why there less anecdotal stories about idjits shooting themselves with [insert your favorite brand or action here]?

Because there are less idjits that have one.

It doesn't matter what the action is--if you want to be an idiot, you can shoot yourself with them. DA/SAs, revolvers, strikers, SAs, whatever.

*sigh* I keep hearing that logic.

Fine, then. Let's put 12# triggers on Glocks. No, that's not enough--what kind of rubes are we that we equate poundage to poundage? Let's put 18# triggers on them, to make up for the Glock having a shorter trigger pull than a DA revolver.

What's that? You say none of our officers can hit a bloody schoolbus with them? Well, that's not our problem. We made it idiot-proof, not useful.

If you wanted a competent defensive pistol, then you should have learned to keep your finger off the trigger.

Or you could just issue a holster that provides actual retention. It's not like they don't make any.

......that it's really hard to climb stairs while being surrounded by dogs, while carrying a gun. We have three good sized dogs and sometime I can't get across a flat floor to turn the house alarm off. I'm waist deep in the big doggies. I'll bet that isn't covered in anybody's training. The 'keep your finger off the trigger part' is, though.

PS: I'll bet that was EMBARRASSING! I think that I would stick to the 'The perp shot me!" story until proven otherwise.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Btw we recovered the bullet. It is an sxt so likely ranger t ammo. Seems to me it performed flawlessly. Entered at the 1st intercostal space at extreme downward angle, breaking the clavicle puncturing lung and liver before skipping off the 4th rib where it attaches to the spine shattering the rib before exit and stoppage by the inside of the rear panel of his vest. I didn't have dial calipers at work but strongly suspect the bullet is a 180 grain .40 S&W.

Actually a PA state trooper shot AND killed another PA state trooper with a Sig 227. The DA/SA gun with the 10# trigger. It was accidental. The trooper didn't mean to pull the trigger. Probably we should go with 20# triggers!

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Whats with all the talk of additional training? It's so simple a 10 year old could understand, "don't touch trigger and gun won't go off". I guess it sounds simple in theory but is much more difficult and involved in real world gun handling situations. I always thought a gun like a Glock, XD, or M&P would be the ideal defensive weapon with a 5lb trigger and a manual thumb safety. The training to remember to flip the safety off wouldn't be that hard to learn and might take less time than worrying about gripping the trigger when falling down or clothing hitting the trigger on re-holstering. I hear so many people say they wouldn't even consider owning a handgun with a manual safety. It kinda makes worry about them when they're out hunting, do they leave the manual safety off on their rifle or shotgun when they're around other hunters?

I'm not saying they've NEVER existed, but off the top of my head, I've never heard of a "safe action" or even a double action RIFLE. The only double action shotguns I can recall were experimental pieces like the multi-barrel guns made for local defense forces during the Vietnam War.

There is a UNIVERSE of difference between a Glock 19 without a finger pulling the trigger, and a Remington 700 with the striker cocked. Depending upon how the trigger is set (or whether it's been replaced), that Remington takes only a minimal (minute, if it has a single set trigger like my Savage 112BVSS) pressure to fire.

The two are utterly different.

I'm Root Cause qualified for accident investigation (industrial failures) and one failure mechanism is human performance. So most people on this board would agree that an AD is a human performance issue.

However, in this case, when one brand has a preponderance of AD compared to other brands of the same type it becomes a human factor issue - i.e. design.

No matter how highly trained, or skilled, under high stress conditions if human factors aren't considered something bad is going to happen.

At the turn of the 20th century (maybe before) S&W promoted their revolvers in advertising as safe because a child couldn't accidentally pull the trigger - the trigger pull was too heavy. I think a 5 year old could discharge a Glock. Pro-gunners need to stop making an excuse for poorly designed firearms that get people accidentally shot.

Hmmm. This could get entertaining. Just before the lock.