My TTSH poll question du jour asks opinions on which is preferable in a typical two-story house from a gun theft prevention perspective?

a) A first floor gun safe of 1,200+ lbs, sub-floor supported as necessary (i.e., a "real" UL-rated safe)?

or...

b) A second story gun safe of 600 to 800 pounds (i.e., a "Residential Security Container")?

++++++++++

The key point here is the compromise in safe weight (and thus strength) normally necessary to locate a safe on the second story of most multi-story homes. My local safe professionals will not attempt to move a safe up the stairs to the second story of a normal wood-framed house if the safe weighs over 600-800 pounds (depending on safe dimensions and safe door removability). I believe this to be typical. On the other hand, a second story safe is much easier to hide from casual prying eyes and, in fact, easier to hide in general (IMHO - YMMV).

Yes, I know there are a thousand other relevant factors here that should also be considered but I am trying to keep this poll simple. I'm aware that basements work well for a lot of people (same with garages in some climates) when the ambient environment can be controlled and flood danger is nil. But I left that choice out for a reason. I just want to focus today on the inherent compromise that often has to be made between safe weight & strength vs. generally better concealability (and/or convenience) and how folks here feel about that.

Anonymous as always. Thanks for participating!

If someone breaks into your home they will be upstairs in short order anyway so to sacrifice strength and integrity for the second floor will not really get you any additional security. . The stronger the safe, the more time it takes to defeat it.

I would get the heavier duty safe and conceal it in a closet, behind a wall or get it out of sight. You do NOT want it seen by delivery men, the Mailman, UPS, Meter Readers, neighbors, etc. I'd also suggest having the closet alarmed with a Central Station alarm monitoring service and get a separate key pad with a different code for your safe's closet. This way you can control who in the household has the access code to the safe closet!

The most important thing is after getting the safe on the house, bolt it down in all four corners! ALL 4 and with really strong bolts!

You might want to look at used jewelry store safes as they usually have much better burglar ratings than gun safes do. You could also pick up a really really good used one for much less than a "gun safe" and it will be much much stronger! If you hide it in a closet, the fact that the jewelry safe doesn't have a fancy dan paint job and pin striping means nothing. Pay for security - NOT pin striping! A jewelry safe can easily be configured into a gun safe and at least you can make it the way YOU want it.

Well my 2 cents says go for the weight, that means thicker material in door and walls. It can also mean different material used (like a layer of Stainless steel)

I have a Fort Knox that's way close to 1500 dry, its also located in a hard to use halligan tools area and is well bolted down. I can moved it myself as part of my work was moving and installing big items like boilers, air compressors, Autoclaves and other big bulky items. Its still considered "Residential Security Container" but its not what you find at the big box stores, I ordered it custom made from the manufacture back in 2004.

It "should" buy me a decent bit of time if the house is hit.

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14 S&W Revs none with locks!

An actual safe is far superior to the RSC. Most gun "safes" are just RSCs anyway. My safe is UL rated, but it's still just an RSC.

Unless you're not really a gun person, people are going to realize you have guns. So, secreting the RSC upstairs is really not a protection unless you camouflage it really well. Camouflage it well enough and you don't need the safe at all.

Also, a real safe is very expensive. New safes are so expensive it's cheaper to just replace all the guns. A real safe made to hold guns is going to start at around $5K and get a lot more expensive really quickly.

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Freedom isn't free.

Thanks very much guys. Whenever I run a poll, I always realize after the first few comments that I left something out.

For purposes of this poll, let's assume that unlimited money can be spent on either safe (so as to defuse the safe brand or "quality-of-construction" factor) and just concentrate on a high quality safe that either can be brought up to a second floor (at most 600-800 lbs) vs. one that is too heavy to be supported on the stairs (during installation) or on the second floor (once set and loaded) and so it must be set-up on the first floor where it can be supported, almost without limits, from a concrete floor or with extra support added beneath the floor. And yes, I realize that there are some very good and expensive and very heavy safes that are still considered "Residential Security Containers."

Am I wrong in my thinking that a second-story safe is an easier thing to conceal from miscreants and evil doers and casual observers/household visitors than a ground floor safe? I guess it depends on the house and what options your layout might provide. I'm thinking pretty normal houses here... existing houses... not ones specifically designed (or alterable) with safe concealment in mind. I wonder how or where I can research that short of interviewing our local criminal community.

Geez! Eight votes so far and 100% in favor of a heavier ground-floor safe over a lighter (600-800 lb) second-story safe. The conclusion is clear so far: The membership doesn't see any privacy or concealment advantage to putting the safe up on the second floor... or at least not enough advantage to give up on being able to own a heavier built safe.

I must admit that I find this unanimous result surprising.

I have a friend.....he owns 4 handguns. No small children or grandchildren. He has a 4th hand 4 digit gun safe on his desk in his home office.
Stores his handguns in coat or jacket pockets in 4 different closets thru house.
Figures if bad guys break in they will hall off "gunsafe" rather than pat down all of his suit jackets in closets.

He says....

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

My favorite option was posted from a member here, based in the Dakota's, who purchased a vault door and poured reinforced concrete, to make a proper vault the size of a large room. Probably doubled as a tornado shelter considering the area.

This is what I'd prefer to do. My is in a large closet in the basemen.

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Robert
SWCA #2906, SWHF #760

Don't sweat it. Polls always leave out some aspect.

(I shortened this for ease of reading.)
No, you're not wrong from a concealment perspective. But let me ask, just how many miscreants do you invite into your home? I'll bet none. Of the guests you do invite, how many of them are gun averse? Also, do you not have a room on the first floor where your guests wouldn't generally venture? So, how much of a threat are regular guests and is it really all that necessary to conceal the safe from those that might venture into the room where it would reside?

Then you have to consider what you're protecting your stuff from. A quick search show that there were 1,579,527 burglaries and 365,500 fires in 2015. Based on these simple numbers it would seem that burglary is a bigger threat than fire. Of course this doesn't include any demographics.

So, with unlimited money, the safe is by far the more important quality. I would rather have a device they couldn't get into at all. A safe rating of UL RSC means it has a lock and can resist attack with regular tools for 5 minutes. Hmmm, is that what you want?

Now, you must understand that the rating above was also tested against experienced safe crackers. Take a look at this:

This is the lowest level safe Liberty makes. The idiots who did this had about 3 hours. They never got in and left behind a bunch of broken tools. This is the most likely type of thief you'll encounter; smash and grab. In this case, this RSC likely protected more stuff in the house because the criminals wasted all their time on this. I wouldn't count on that deterrent though.

There is one caveat to this story, this one was installed properly. It was bolted to the floor so they had to work on it upright and couldn't just carry it off.

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Freedom isn't free.

The situation where I live now is irrelevant. It's our retirement place where things will be very different and part of the reason for this poll. For reasons I shouldn't get into, we will have many more "casual visitors" than we have now. Will any of them be miscreants (or have family or friends who are miscreants?)? No way to tell. We also have this thing called "windows" (No, not the Bill Gates thing ). Lots of windows. Too damn many windows. Enough on the first floor alone where almost anyone could see inside. The security threat will be far, far greater at our retirement place... but then again, so will the planned safeguards.

Nope. Not what I want at all. But the whole theory is: What they don't know about they won't be tempted to try to steal. And the second theory: What they can't find quickly takes more time in the house to find, open and steal. All that while the cops are (hopefully) on their way to the house answering the silent alarm.

But I get your point. It is valid and you are clearly with the majority on this poll that feel the heavier, stronger safe is better than a lighter safe with... possibly... a little less exposed/harder-to-find-and-work-on location.

TTSH,

We obviously do NOT know your home so that is very hard to answer. Don't want to sound like a broken record but if unlimited money is in play, GET A JEWELRY SAFE!!!! I have NEVER seen a "Gun Safe" anywheres near as Burglar resistant as a high end Jewelry safe is and they are specifically rated for that. Again, if money is no object, you can get he inside custom tailored o your liking so the fact that it is not yet laid out for firearms is irrelevant.

J. Safes also have much better locks and mechanisms on them.

ALSO:

Bolting the safe into Concrete is probably stronger than wood would be. IF the safe is to go against the wall, you could bolt it to the floor AND the wall as well.

We are mixing up the theoretical (just for purposes of this poll) with poor, old TTSH's harsh economic reality. Apples and oranges.

What was really important to me was the competing concepts, not the details: Heavier safe downstairs vs. the best that could be had in a safe that could be delivered and work upstairs. The Forum is clearly sending a message that it likes the heaviest possible safe downstairs concept.

Our real plans are top secret and, to be honest, haven't been completely formulated yet. But the idea of brute strength vs. lighter weight stealthiness has been on my mind for a while now so I thought I'd run this poll.

Used Jewelry Safes are sometimes less expensive than "new gun safes' are. Gun safes are usually all dolled up with nice paint jobs and pin striping - a burglar doesn't care about that stuff.

I honestly believe that if your potential thieves can defeat the one safe they can defeat the other. So my vote on the poll would be none of the above. Not knowing how many guns you have I'd go with the smaller safe and concentrate on camouflaging it.

If your retirement home hasn't been built is there any void space where you could conceal a safe? If it has been built can you remodel a void space into it to hide the safe?

That would be my strategy

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Retired Career Security Guard

Oh, I know. There was a gentleman selling a large, upright, modern style jewelry store safe just about 20 minutes from where I live right now. It was quite reasonably priced I thought... but no one took it because it weighed so much (well over 3,000 pounds) and stood so tall (damn near as tall as my ceiling). But it was built like a battleship for sure. Too bad that I had no place to store it.

I don't see the safe being on the second floor as being a deterrent to a serious burglar. Even bolted down, its bolted to a wood floor / beam most likely. Im thinking a sawzall with a long blade, a cut around the base of the safe, and presto - its now in the first floor, and a lot easier to carry out than the heavier safe. It will probably be a little easier to break into than the heavier safe as well.

The safe on the first floor is more likely to be bolted to a concrete foundation, and harder to cut loose.

Could be wrong, but I do believe in a house fire, its the lowest part of the house that stays coolest the longest. Another consideration.

My vote is a heavier duty safe at ground floor, along with a plan to keep it hidden from public view.

Larry

Just as an aside, consider a loud, extremely noisy alarm rather than a silent one.

Silent alarms are good for bank personnel. It allows them to trip the alarm without alerting the bad guy who is currently robing them. The idea is to keep the bad guy from shooting the employee because they tripped the alarm. Silent alarms bring the police in quiet so the bad guy can be caught in the act. They don't protect anything.

Loud, obnoxious alarms on the other hand wake up the neighbors and make everyone look. This will cause the bad guys to run and run quickly. No one is going to work on a safe with a 105dB alarm in their ear. Of course this also alerts the police and gets them on their way.

Just food for thought.

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Freedom isn't free.

Well, I think that's the second concept... what I intended anyway.

Obviously, whatever we do will be as stealthy as we can possibly make it. We are looking at several different options right now. However, none so far are entirely satisfactory to me from both security and practicality perspectives.

Good points all around. And, by the way, who says there will only be one alarm system (wink, wink)?

I agree you want an alarm to ensure that you're limiting the time available.

When your door alarm goes off it's starts the clock for the police to arrive and even if it takes them 10-15 minutes the thieves are aware the police will be arriving and they will know they need to be well on their way before the police arrive. They won't put more than two or three minutes into the smash and grab from that point.

In practical terms that means they will hit the living room and the master bed room, and maybe a den if you have one looking for jewelry, laptops and other consumer electronics they can pawn fairly easily.

They will generally not waste time in kids bedrooms, laundry rooms, etc. in that regard, if you've got an alarm, a medium security safe in a closet in a child's bedroom is not likely to even be seen in the minute or two they'll spend looking.

That in my opinion is preferable to a thief seeing a high security safe on the main floor. Even if he doesn't have the time to try to break into it himself, he knows it's there and that's valuable information he can sell to someone else. If that someone else happens to specialize in robbery, you or your family have a fair chance of having your door kicked at some point in the future by an armed assailant who'll be more than willing to threaten your family to get you to open the safe. Unless you were able to shoot him and his accomplices first, you're going to open that safe. If you're lucky you'll all survive.

So screw the high security safe on the main floor, unless you are able to keep it well out of sight and in area that a thief isn't likely to explore in the few minutes available.

In the last 25 years I've seen many safes that thieves attempted to break into. They used hammers and chisels, screw drivers, axes, gas operated saws, and torches.

They were almost always successful with Walmart/big box store safes. They were never successful with a quality gun safe.

In my experience it doesn't matter where you put the safe. They will find it. The only sure way is to have a special room built concealing the safe. I've installed safes in places you wouldn't believe.

Some things to consider, a safe on the second floor will fall through to the first floor if your house burns down. If it's a quality safe then it's not a concern. Buy the best you can afford. Most reputable safe companies can and will move a safe up stairs. I've done it. Where ever you put the safe make sure to use a dehumidifier. The constant rise and fall of the temperature can cause condensation inside the safe.

Most burglaries are the smash and grab type. But I have seen thieves "camp out" in homes that they knew owners would be away for an extended period of time. Some stayed as long as two weeks.

Again, it doesn't matter where you put it. Time is your friend and the enemy of the common thief. Make it hard for them to get in. Strong deadbolts is a good start. Good lighting is another. Cameras and alarms come next. Don't put too much faith in any one of those. Home security should be layered. Each complimenting the other.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

I didn't vote as "a pair of dobermans" was not listed.

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Front sight and squeeze

This is your thread, and you are not obliged to respond to my inability to grasp why you will have "No way to tell" whether miscreants will enter your future home.

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Wrangler of stray Chiefs
Bob

That would be a concern of mine and I'll admit that I'm still surprised that more folks don't seem to share that concern.

My collection is fully insured. Given where I live (and will continue to live), fire is not as great a concern as theft. Fire means I get a check and rebuild the collection. A large theft means I probably lose my license for life so my hobby will have to switch from gun collecting to bird watching or crocheting.

May I ask: What is the heaviest weight safe you have moved (or would move) up a set of stairs to a second floor location? In your opinion, is my local safe professional right about limiting safe weight (empty) to between 600 and 800 pounds for a second story location?

I don't know if you already have your retirement home but mine will not have a second floor so that's a moot point to start with.
I want the biggest, heaviest and strongest safe and as few, or no stairs to climb in my golden years.
So my answer is large safe, downstairs.

Well, almost 90% agree with you. The result of this poll is pretty darn clear now so I think it has served its purpose. The preference is clearly for the heaviest safe possible (which means a first floor safe properly supported from below), hidden and/or disguised as much as possible. I got the message!

Sincere thanks to all who participated.

Back when I moved safes almost daily the heaviest was 1400 pounds up about fifteen steps with a 90 degree turn to the hallway. We used a motorized stair climbing hand truck. Had to take the door off the safe first. That was actually more difficult than moving the safe.

The reason for the 600-800 pound limit could be that they don't have the equipment or manpower to do it. Or, they don't think your floor can handle the weight. I had customers sign a waiver relieving us from the liability of the safe being too heavy for their floor. Many homes built in the 70's could take the weight because waterbeds were popular then. So we had no limit as to the weight of the safe. As long as we could make the 90 degree turn at the top of the stairs, we were good to go.

If your safe company is reputable then I would respect their decision. Moving safes is highly specialized and can be dangerous. I moved a 3700 pound safe years ago. When I set the safe on the corner of the customers concrete pad, the pad started to sink. The heaviest safe we moved was 6800 pounds. Actually we didn't have to move it much. The customer was smart and thought ahead. He wanted the safe on the second floor. He was in the process of building his retirement home. The entire second floor was built much stronger than normal. In some areas steel beams were used. On the day that the trusses were delivered, we showed up with the safe. The customer paid the truss delivery guy extra to set the safe upstairs in the master bedroom. All we had to do was move the safe a few feet into a corner. Later the carpeting was installed around the safe.

I'm no contractor or carpenter, but I would see if you can find out how strong your floor is. I have no idea how many pounds per square feet is required.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

To add: I know of a few homes that were sold with the safe as part of the sale because it was too much of a pain to move it again.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

Great information! Thank you!

I've been in discussions with that local safe outfit a number of times over the years. They always insisted that it was a stairs loading and second story floor loading issue, although that was in regard to my current house built in 1975. They have never wavered from their 600-800 pound (empty weight) maximum per safe limit, again depending on the particular safe(s) in question. Since they routinely sell safes up into the multiple thousands of pounds, I don't believe it was ever a safe moving capability issue.

I did that in 04 when I moved to the lake. Made my Pro Steel (now Browning) part of the deal! I purchased it new in 1980 if I remember right. When they were looking at the house I implied that I was going to take the safe. The man was a hunter and had a few guns and we agreed on house price with the safe to remain.

It worked well as I wanted a bigger, better safe anyway and the company delivered my new Fort Knox right to my garage. Moving it the rest of the way and bolting it down (floor& back) was easy for me! Retired construction worker!

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14 S&W Revs none with locks!

If pro's can rob banks & museums, I doubt you would stand much chance with a determined/prepared pro. Also if a guy has a gun to a loved ones head, does it matter? A "reasonable attempt to conceal/secure/ & KEEP SECRET that their are guns in this house, matter a great deal as well. NO cute signs/bumper stickers advertising "come & get them, Loose lips sink ships as well so NO BRAGGING at the range or LGS about your huge collection. Save some $ for good insurance. The safe would be the last layer of protection IMO, the first would be a clear view of the house & motion detectors/camera's/alarms. Make your neighbors house look like an easier target.

Soon, we will be able to buy safes made of nanocellulose, which is stronger to weight ratio (8 to 1) than steel, and is rather inexpensive. Already in use for other safety devices, it cant be long before marketing. I'd love a 3x3x5'safe that was super strong and weighed 100 lbs.

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Halfway and one more step

If unlimited resources were considered the absolute most ingenious gun safe I ever personally witnessed was a gun room that was hidden behind a "secret" door, in this case a bookcase...just like in the movies. I have also seen the same "false room" used by a friend that had a miniature pot grow in his basement that utilized a full eighth of his basement but was hidden behind drywall and used a free standing bookcase as a door...it was too cool for school.
One of the things that I was always curious about any kind of safe was...How honest are the people that sold you the safe? It goes back to my natural borne cynicism.

It's hard to keep a secret, if YOU can't keep it don't expect ANYONE else to either. Once you tell that first person, it's no longer a secret. The weed grower told you, you told us, likely it's a long list. If going the "secret" route, a cheap decoy locker with junk guns might be a good option.

I have my big Liberty safe. I also have an alarm system. I'm also thinking about adding something like this to my garage and to my gun room.