About a year ago my Lady Co-Pilot finally took the class to qualify for her CCL. As I've had mine for a while (always carried, anyway), for $50 and a copy of my DD-214, I had/have no "official" reason to plunk down the $75 cost for the session, which consisted primarily of ethics, laws, responsibilities, CC methods and suitable handguns. Range-time with instruction was an extra $75, which she opted out of because I have been providing plenty of each at home out here in the sticks. She trusts my experience and knowledge, and takes instruction well.

Just for grins, I sort of hung around "offstage" and was able to hear what was going on. The instructor was an ex-LEO patrolman/detective from Milwaukee with over 30 years under his belt. His presentation was very competent, clear and succinct. I felt that all were in goods hands, so I wandered the huge farm-type superstore which also sold most everything Wally World does except groceries. This included a great sporting goods section with a nice assortment of guns, ammo and accessories. After getting my fix of ogling guns, I drifted back to my former eavesdropping position to listen to the class progress.

The instructor was in a Q&A portion of the class and I tuned in sharply. In a group of twenty, or so, there were the usual know-it-alls, the sidewalk commandos, the bubbas, the new guys and gals (who were asking the most intelligent questions), and then I heard a voice pipe in which I recognized, my aforementioned Lady Co-Pilot. The question to the instructor I heard, roughly, was: "What is you're opinion of the use of laser sights if you have to defend yourself at night, or in a dark house? Wouldn't using them just give your position away? Isn't the idea of personal defense to stay hidden, and shoot from some kind of cover, if possible?"

You've heard of a pregnant pause? Well, this one was about a month overdue and getting painful! I damn near broke out laughing... and felt quite proud of my Lady. She had really been absorbing my instructions! It took quite a few seconds, but the instructor finally answered, "I had never really thought about it that way. Tell you what... let's take a fifteen minute break and I'll think about it."

I scooted out of there and found some boots to look at while waiting for my phone to ring so my Co-Pilot could find me and talk about what had gone on in class...

This brings me to the value of point shooting, which I have been teaching her, in conjunction with accuracy on target, moving to cover, and if you don't have decent cover, go as low as you can and still be able to shoot, different shooting techniques for different situations, etc. I taught myself point shooting with my first handgun, and became good enough to put rounds where I wanted them 95% of the time, never bringing sights in alignment with my eyes. Snap-shooting, or instinct shooting, it's sometimes called. I always figured it was the best technique in certain situations... keep the gun close to the body, sometimes with the elbow locked into the ribs. I don't know if it still is, but the FBI used to teach this.

My thinking, and self-training, on this technique is that sometimes you just won't be able to pull up and get a good sight picture... it could be too late for you if you don't get off a fast accurate shot or two. And, on a dark night, or in a dark room scenario, aligning sights is pretty much a no-go, even with Trijicons (Yes, I've had them.), or whatever, because you can't see the target anyway. But you CAN see shadow movement and hear where the bad guy might be.

Shooting paper in a static position is all well and good for primary firearms training, learning gun control and marksmanship (I do my share), but for serious up-close self-defense stuff I practice/train a lot of point shooting with all of my CC guns.

Okay, brothers and sisters, I would love to hear from you. Anyone else use the above techniques described? Different methods toward the same goal? Flashlights/lasers vs. staying behind cover and springing a big surprise?

Interesting read. I believe in the value of training to shoot in more than one position, and with different techniques. From an arm's length while someone is trying to grab you or your pistol, point shooting or shooting from the hip may be your only option.

Tons can be written on this subject, but that being said:

Don't forget to realize that you own every bullet that you launch. Trying to be high speed and hitting an innocent bystander is generally considered a bad thing 99.9999999% of the time. Your third paragraph from the end somewhat makes me nervous. Shooting at shadows, movement, and sounds is the best way to shoot an unintended target.

I taught this stuff for a living for a while to Marines who were deploying to combat zones, and even on drills where the threat was coming from the left/right/and behind, you always put sights on target. Didn't matter if it were a more static range or room/building clearing. You own your shots and had better be able to identify your target.

I do a lot of shotgun shooting,mainly sporting clays and that is ALL about point shooting,or instinctive. If you see the bead,chances are you will miss the target. As far as pistol shooting..if the range is under 15 feet,it's going to be a point shot.If I need to be accurate beyond that,especially with a pistol..sighting is best for me.
As far as laser beams..I like them as long as I can turn them on/off with my middle finger on the grip. I don't aim center mass, so a laser to an opponents eyes is very effective in blinding them as I squeeze the trigger..

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My Daddy was a pistol..

Self defense inside 10 yards is front sight center mass and fire.

With proper training and practice you will become as proficient as trying to align front and rear sights.

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Hipcocked45

Interesting topic and replies. I have had some night shooting experience and night sights were definitely a plus for me but point training is also important but takes a lot more work to be competent. ID of the target is paramount before shooting!

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Hue 68 noli me tangere

Be confident in your shot placement, certainly this is done with hours of practice. Aligning target sights in a bad situation is probably not going to happen. I never want to be in that setup but being able to put a bullet on target with point shooting technique is a plus.

BTW, I never saw Roy Rogers shoot a rattler after lining up the sights on his six gun.

And Matt Dillon had a long and successful career shooting from the hip.

"What is you're opinion of the use of laser sights if you have to defend yourself at night, or in a dark house? Wouldn't using them just give your position away? Isn't the idea of personal defense to stay hidden, and shoot from some kind of cover, if possible?"

You've heard of a pregnant pause? Well, this one was about a month overdue and getting painful! I damn near broke out laughing... and felt quite proud of my Lady. She had really been absorbing my instructions! It took quite a few seconds, but the instructor finally answered, "I had never really thought about it that way. Tell you what... let's take a fifteen minute break and I'll think about it."

Reading between the lines I would conclude that you do not endorse the use of lasers. I'm not really sure why this topic keeps coming up and the constant disdain for this tool. Personally, I have the Crimson Trace laser with the trigger guard and absolutely love it. I find it to be an excellent training tool when dry firing ( laser on to watch muzzle movement) and point and shoot training ( laser off until pointed at target ).
I've practiced home defense scenarios where the gun has been brought to arms ( with laser off) and ready to go on target and paint with laser in one fluid movement. I just don'tsee how it is a hindrance or a negative.
To be clear, I don't rely solely on the laser during live fire practice. I carry tape in my range bag and cover the laser for the first 50-70 rounds and use either sights or practice point shooting without the laser but usually get another 30 rounds or so downrange with the laser. Been doing this for several years and would endorse the use of a laser on any EDC that I would carry.

Good, thoughtful responses, so far.

A few other things to add: Target ID in the situations laid out are purely subjective. One must make millisecond threat assessments and transfer them just as rapidly into the proper reaction. Team/unit combat situations have only a passing resemblance to a one-on-one civilian scenario, but many of the same things do apply... fire control and being aware of background, innocents inside the "bubble", where your mate/partner is, etc. (Being a hunter since the age of 10 --- I'm closing in fast on 67--- I am quite aware of all this and teach the same.) Say you are walking to your car in a dim parking lot after shopping, dinner, or whatever, and you see someone approaching your personal zone. Do your antennae go up, jacked to max sensitivity? Do you scan the immediate area for evasive routes or the possibility of help from others? Do you assess this approaching person's physical attitude and kick into fight-or-flight mode? I think most of us on this forum all do to some degree. How many of us have been in just such a situation? (I see a lot of hands going up!) Paranoia is one thing, but I think that we all have a reliable sort of personal "radar" when it comes to threat detection.

As for a home invasion scenario in the middle of the night, it is only the two of us out in the country, with neighbors few and far between. I am not terribly concerned about shooting a passing innocent wandering through my home at 2 am when my Lady is sleeping right next to me. Whoever is there doesn't belong there, and by God, they won't be there long if I am able to do my job correctly, whether it be dark or light inside the house. If I were to hit the switch on a laser without first getting a fix on this invader's exact position, oh, woe to me and mine! Not acceptable. Target nailed, a few quick shots, THEN the flashlight for any kind of followup. All from cover, if possible. Rambo I ain't, and I want all the edge that I can muster. While all this is going on, there is also an assessment of "How many are there, and where are they?", of course.

Point shooting certainly takes a lot of practice, but it is really not all that difficult if you have a fair degree of hand-eye coordination, muscle memory and have the ability to visualize.

The ball is now back in play...

For the record, I'm a fan of CT laser sights. As mentioned, with a bit of practice, you can activate them or not, when you wish. I would like to make this observation ... How will the laser sight identify your position any more than the flashlight you use to identify your target in the dark? I recognize that many times we can see well enough to identify movement of a body in very low light, especially if our eyes are adjusted to the dark. We may also hear that movement. But exactly who is that body? It may be obvious, and it may not be, depending on the circumstances.

I sure hope not to give away presence or location until it's time for action, but I am not going to fire a shot unless I am certain of my target. I will use my flashlight for that, if only momentarily. Then it's time for the laser sight in low or no light!! I do not pay attention to the laser dot in good light.

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So long ... Ken

IMHO it all depends upon the situation when and how to present a weapon.

A guy pulls a knife on me six feet away in a parking lot in daylight or inside my home at 3 am after the back door just got kicked in. Two different scenarios, two different responses.

I don't care for lasers but I do use the FBI cross with my flash light. I don't perm mount a light to my weapon because I may want to hold the light far to my side to give the BG something to shoot at away from my body, again depending upon the situation. I also have NS on my weapon. fwiw.

Just my .02

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Isaiah 41:10

I hate to bring this up (not really), EB, but what did the instructor have to say after fifteen minutes to think about the question?

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Oh well, what the hell.

Back in 1969 or so (during the height of the Viet Nam war), the Army began a new training regimen they called "Quick Kill". It involved walking down a jungle path with the sights on your M-16 covered engaging pop-up targets. It seems that there was way too much aiming and not enough shooting during VC ambushes. This was a live fire course where you were using BB guns the first couple times thru..

KTHOM:

If you read carefully, use of a light would be AFTER initial firing. Night vision is shot at that point from muzzle flash anyway. AND you know where "friendlies" are located, preferably crouched down with eyeballs peeking over the mattress with THEIR nightstand gun in hand as backup. Anyone else in the house uninvited is fair game for swift and lethal consequences.

Flipping on a flashlight, even momentarily, kills your night vision. Your ability to focus on that laser is also compromised. And it is quite doubtful that anyone would pose for you just because they got hit with a light. I would be dropping for cover and putting rounds in the direction of that nice, shiny target. Think of yourself as the bad guy for a moment. What would YOU do if tagged by a light of any sort?

I am not condemning laser sights, per se... they are quite useful under many conditions, as are scopes and holo optics. If I could afford good night vision goggles, I'd probably use them; I am not averse to technology. But in the scenarios I have posed, laser sights would not cut it for me.

SHOULDAZAGGED:

After the CC class, my Lady told me that his reply was, "I would think it would be a personal preference, but I take your point seriously, and I tend to agree with you for that type of situation." Then he proceeded to ask who was training her and how often did she shoot, etc., as he did the others in the room. Some attendees had never even fired a gun, some shot once a month at the range, and the Commandos and Bubbas were kind of off the wall and barely paid attention during the entire session. They knew it all and just needed the class to get their license. Kind of a predictable cross-section.

For the average person/cop, when the stuff hits the fan and BG is in your face, your fight or flight instincts will take over and you will not be looking for sights, lasers, etc., you'll be acquiring your weapon, pointing it in the direction of the threat and shooting as fast as you can; likely shooting before you're on target. The more training and practice one receives, the better one will perform under such circumstances; however, no training can replicate or induce the fear one experiences in a life or death encounter. Generally speaking, sights and lasers are for target practice and offensive actions.

Fairbairn and Applegate trained a lot of WWII OSS men, SOE operatives, and Commandos in pointed fire and they killed a lot of Germans using that technique.


I got my dad's copy of, Kill or Get Killed when I was about 12 and later was trained in pointed fire by the USAF, as well as using two hands and sights. I read Cooper from about age 12, too, and Keith.


I found pointed fire to be pretty acurate on human slhouettes to 15 yards.


My son killed a man in Iraq using pointed fire, at about 20 feet. One shot from his Beretta M-9 did the job. That worthy had just been using his Dragunov sniper rifle on US troops from a rooftop and was caught as he tried to leave the building.


Generally, I favor using sights when possible, and I think Ayoob has a point when he writes about concentrating on the front sight. But I believe that pointed fire has its place, too, if you can do it right. As an experiment, I once took my Ruger Super Blackhawk, the usual model in stainless steel with 7.5-inch barrel, and shot targets to 15 yards, with pointed fire. I had previously done that with a Colt .45 auto and a Colt SAA with 4.75-inch bbl. It was actuaally easy to get hits in the kill zone, and I was using full power .44 Magnum loads in the Ruger.


I find it helps to lock your eyes on the target, on a specific part, like a pocket or button, and that helps aim. Your eyes aim your car on the road; it's the same principle.


But if shooting at a coiled snake, it helps to shoot the coiled mass if you don't have time for an aimed head shot. That can then be a quick follow-up after your first shot hopefully knocked the snake off enough to prevent an immediate bite.

2TALL79:

Sounds like the rest of The Green Machine borrowed this training from the Blue Teams, LRRPs/LRPs and Recondos. "Walks" would be set up in the bush outside of camp (reasonably safe) and they would do pop-ups and statics. Graduation from the course was a run through active VC/NVA turf. Quite often it would turn into the proverbial "Hits the Fan" situation.

2Tall79: as late as February 1975 the Army was still teaching a version of the "Quick Kill" techniques in Basic Training - at Ft. Polk, LA, anyway. They did tape up your sights so you could not use them, and they made you mount the weapon in an odd (to me at least) manner where you had to mount the weapon so the butt was directly below your chin, and you were supposed to keep both of your eyes open. The instructors would not allow you to mount the weapon to your shoulder. We didn't have BB guns to use, just our M-16s with the taped up sights. I was shooting very well until we got to the "Quick Kill" portion of training, and I couldn't hit a darn thing using that technique. Finally, to make a point of how effective the Quick Kill technique was, and how it was superior to aimed/shoulder fire, one of the Drill Sergeants removed the tape from the sights of my rifle and he stood at the next position on the firing line with a taped sighted M-16 for a head-to-head competition. I don't know who was more surprised to find that I could actually tie him in competition. After that, I was allowed to shoot the Quick Kill course my way instead of the Army (correct) way. By the way, I qualified "Expert" with the rifle.

Regards,

Dave

IMHO, point shooting is a valuable skill acquired only with lots of concentration, technique and shots down range. The maximum effective range will vary from person to person. One has to determine 'their' effective range.

I don't care for any sort of electronic gadget on handguns. The problem is that range training becomes muscle memory and at the wrong time in the wrong place one habitual in using the electronic sight or light will take the time to use it just when that time spent well could make the difference in being the shooter or the shootee. Reaction time to activate the switch, reaction time to assess the result of turning on the switch and then reaction time to fire the handgun. For me, all that would easily add from 1 to 2 seconds to my time to get a shot off. I would much rather use that time in acquiring sights or a known point shooting position and getting a telling shot off.

The other aspect of electronic gadgets is just that. They are electronic/mechanical in nature and therefore are subject to failure. My HD handgun lies in a drawer for months on end. How do I KNOW that electronic gadget is going to work when I need it? I don't and that knowledge could well add even more reaction time.

Rex Applegate and I discussed point shooting a couple of times. His contention was that there were three positions for the handgun; down low to the point one can't see the gun held by one hand, up where one can see the gun but held well below the eye level with either one or two hands and at eye level. The maximum effective range goes up with each higher holding position. Rex had spent a considerable amount of time with Fairbairn teaching the Hong Kong Police force how to use point shooting during closeup encounters. Their number of officers successful in taking out bad guys went up considerably. ....

an example of how not to do it......

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Hipcocked45

Point Shooting????


Put me in the true believer corner!

I'm still kickin because I learned to point shoot early on.


Just think back a few decades when a fighting handgun's sight
were not glow in the dark or adjustable high ride - highly visible target
style of aiming devises.
On the Colt Gov't Model just a couple of lit'l bumps on the slide.
DA revolvers weren't much better with a low setting ramp

style blade (sometimes with a dab on model car paint for contrast)
not much to search out in the nite. The ergonomics of some handgun's
frames point purty natural for most folks. I like an arched mainspring
housing on my Gov't models to raise the point of impact to
make er shoot what I'm eyeballin'.
Colt SAAs and Smith & Wesson general shoot where I'm looking.


As that famous archer on the sport's channel sez, "Be the Arrow."


I say, "Be the Bullet."


What with a little time and practice, it's just another tool in the box!




.

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

As far as SD with pistols, I learned long ago that I have little use for sights, lights or lasers.

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Music/Sports/Beer fan

Depends on what you call "point shooting". Almost all of what I see called point shooting involves bringing the gun up to at least mid-torso height. At that point, the gun is prominent in your peripheral vision, so you are actually visually aligning the gun, just not with the sights, like Mr. Skins here.



This method has been thoroughly disproved as a quick & effective way to hit your target for many decades now, mostly thanks to Mr. Shirts, a.k.a. Jack Weaver. And remember these competitions were "Leatherslap" contests, which placed a premium on short & fast, the point shooting home field.

There have been many old time police officers, back when hip-shooting was still taught (I wonder why nobody does that anymore? Hmmm...) who couldn't understand why they missed their man at a few feet when they had qualified expert on the range. If being good at point shooting just requires more practice, I'll direct you back to Mr. Shirts, who ran the range for the LA County Sheriff's Department and had his fill of ammo and range time.

When this subject comes up I always mention Thell Reed, I'm sure old-timers will remember him. This guy would hip-shoot steel chickens at 50 yards with an SAA, but when he was shooting seriously, he brought the gun up to eye level and used both hands. If you feel you're better at hip shooting than someone who reliably hits 4 out of 5 chickens at 50 yards, please do continue.

The Laza Hatas always confused me, but just recently a report from someone re-qualifying for their LTC gave me some insight. People who are used to shooting at a range, where they start the firing process by picking up a gun off the bench, don't try to understand lasers, because they start off with their focus on the gun. IRL, your focus is on the threat. Switching focus back to the sights is one of the hardest things to teach & apply under stress. With a proper grip-activated laser, which is off until the gun's on target (same as a grip-activated light), when you bring the gun to bear, there's a nice dot on your target. You ride right past the whole "How much of a sight picture do I need?" debate and go straight to makin' holes.

Electronics failure? Ok, it's not like the irons fall off the gun when you install a laser. If there's no dot, then I just continue with the process. Whether that means a vague outline of the gun over the target, or a nice refined squared away sight picture, depends on the target and it's distance.

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TEAM DNF

Jack Weaver's stance is a very viable platform for a lot of folks of
varying degrees of experience and skill levels.


I use it quite often my own self. But, I am also a student of Mr. Ed McGivern.


And back in the day could point or hip shoot a bit.....
Just enough to bring my carcass back alive.


Two S&Ws at once...Model 27 5" and a Model 25-5 5"


At fightin distance of 15' or so.










.

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

In a self defense situation, with proper training and practice, being able to point shoot (not using the sights) will save your life, not being able to will get you killed. Most SD situations happen inside 10' and less than 2.5 seconds. To get proficient at point shooting requires a lot of proper practice. Find a good instructor, it just might save your life.

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Minimize the variables

I was trained to shoot off the front sight in a combat scenario and for me this has worked. For me at least I tried to listen to what the old hands said and did and use the best of their habits. Practice is a good start as well.

i have been working on point shooting from the hip for 18 months.
it is harder to learn than bulls eye.
just like matt dillon, i can hit accurately out to 15 yards.
at 7 yards i can get a 4'' group.
since you don't raise the gun it is very very fast.
i can fire 3 times before you get into a 2hand stance.
no, i don't look at the gun. only the target.

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susie

The most important aspect about point shooting is distance. I'm surprised no one has mentioned it yet.

The targets don't lie and there's a reason Jack Weaver whooped everyone. Slow hits are better than fast misses.

I know lots of guys who tout point shooting as superior to sighted shooting. However, when we're at the range and the targets are further than 5 yards, sighted shooting always seems to win the day.

At touching distance to 3 yards, yes, point shoot. Beyond 3 to about 5 yards, flash sight picture. Greater than 5 yards, sighted.

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Freedom isn't free.

sorry, rast. wrong.
you are basing your incorrect ideas on people who can't point shoot.
the difference between me n them is practice. i have fired more than 10,000 rounds from the hip n i'm accurate at reasonable range, out to 15 yards.
suggested reading:

fairborn
sykes
applegate
jordan

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susie

CODENAMEDAVE/RASTOFF:

Besides being 95% wrong in your assumptions about point shooting --- firing from one position, target competition against aimed slow-fire, etc. --- you have strayed way into the weeds from the posed scenarios. Let's just turn out the lights on the late Jack Weaver, and see how that would have affected his aimed, slow-fire groups, hmmm? Even world champs can't punch bullseyes in the deep dark if they can't see their sights. I'm not trying to take anything away from the man, but the comparison isn't even apples and oranges... you're more into the octopus sushi and New York vanilla ice cream realm.

If you want to stay locked into the 2" group, paper-puncher target slot, with tall, gold dot Patridge sights, more power to you. Use all the lasers, strobes and holo sights on those ridiculously expensive custom pistols and revolvers to please your blessed little hearts. But it is a bit reprehensible for you to denigrate those of us who have some experience and know-how --- not to mention an open mind --- when it comes to point shooting, especially within the parameters that I initially presented, and which seems to be totally ignored on your part.

I started this thread with the purpose of exposing many of our fellow forum members to an alternative to gizmos and whizzbangs attached to defensive firearms, to perhaps glean a few new ideas for myself, and to get people to rethink SD/HD strategies and tactics.

So, with that, I thank everyone open to what I and others have suggested. And I hope that I have opened a few closed minds.

in a fight, see your front sight. Don't aim, just align, point, and shoot. Nobody in a real gunfight does Dodge City dueling. Shoot, run, shoot, duck, shoot again, move again fast. A guy trying to aim won't hit you. Up close, belly shoot; hold yours at belly height and shoot him in the belly. Twice. Been there, Done that.

Wow!! GREAT thread. I learned a lot tonight I think tomorrow I'm going to the range with the 22 conversion unit on my Colt 45, and burn up a lot of rounds trying out this stuff. I know it will take a lot more than one range trip to get proficient, though.

cyr, i'm not sure you can learn this on a range if you have to shoot at distance. when i started, i was thinking like bulls eye n tried 7 yards.
i consistantly was a couple feet off.
i had to start at 2 yards then only move up a yard when i got good at that distance.
it takes time but is fun if you enjoy practice.

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susie

There's a well-known book on combat pistolcraft by Bill Jordan called "No Second Place Winner". It's been around for many years. He has a lot to say about point shooting as a close-range defensive tactic and you might want to read it. I think electronic copies of it can be found free on the internet.

I definitely need to start working on the point and shoot. Especially from the waist one-handed.
My nightstand pistol is a sig 226 with a Light laser mounted on the rail. Has the rocker switch which falls under my off thumb. bright light and laser. The laser is sighted for the far wall in my bedroom.
With the laser all i have to do is put it on the largest piece of anatomy and start pulling the trigger.
Yes the light is bright. But with all the younger folks in my house, I want to id the threat.
I don't have to acquire sights with the laser.
it gets checked EVERY time i hit the rack.
BUT. It has night-sites and is a natural pointer in my hand.
The fail-safe is the natural point of aim and ambient light from street lights thru the curtains.
Works for me. At home.
On the street? I'd better start practicing one-handed hip-shooting.
YMMV

Friends, I wasn't going to post again on this subject, but...


The easiest first step in training for point shooting/instinct shooting takes very little time out of your day and costs absolutely nothing. You don't even really need a pistol in your hand:

1 --- Focus on any object you wish.
2 --- With your shooting hand, make a gun with your thumb and finger. Sweep, thrust or poke (your choice) the barrel (finger) of your imaginary gun at that object without bringing it to eye level. NO SIGHTING!
3 --- Keeping your "gun" perfectly stationary, if possible, lean down and take a peek with your dominant eye at where your "barrel" is pointing. Your finger, if not dead on the spot on which you focused, should be within a couple of degrees one way or the other.
4 --- Repeat, repeat, repeat...
5 --- Try other "gun" presentations and repeat, repeat, repeat...

You may be amazed at the accuracy which can be achieved in this simple exercise. If you are satisfied with the results, place a real (unloaded) handgun in that same hand and repeat the same procedure... many times.

Congratulations... you have just graduated point shooting kindergarten (Here's your diploma!), and you may travel to the safe, live-fire venue of your choice. However, I would not recommend any quick-draw stuff just yet, Grasshopper. Do a lot of reps with gun in hand and take your time, at first. Speed and fluidity will come later. Shoot at a close target, say maybe ten feet. When you're happy with those results stretch the distance a bit. More reps...

When confident and comfortable with your progress, only then would I recommend drawing from your holster and firing on target. Feel free to experiment and find what works best for you. Choose a gun or two with which you are most comfortable, arbitrarily pick a carry position, determine the most workable holster for you, the best concealment clothing, various presentations, etc.

Enough has been said about advanced concepts, like SD/HD positions, postures and tactics, so I think you can figure all that out at your own pace.

Be safe.

This is a really priceless, meaty thread. Lots of good stuff here.


'G-Men'- used to train from the hip


(just fast forward over the letter)


I had an 1894 carbine style bb gun as a kid and was really mean shooting it from the hip. I wonder if I could do that with a lever .22 or similar? Probably not anymore.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

From experience, I do know this! Every situation is different. They might be similar, but they are all different. It's a good idea to have a plan, but you'd better be ready to accomodate changes to that plan very quickly. What works in one situation may have very little chance of working in any other. There are just to many variables. We gotta be able to do whatever any situation calls for.

I never try to be too critical of what works for another person, as long as it works for them, whether on purpose or somewhat because it just worked out that way. I can tell you that I have been very fortunate in times past. What I did in some situations didn't bear much resemblance to what I thought I would do (in retrospect).

I do know that what is important is that whatever equipment we use, we had better be very familiar with it and be able to make it operate without much conscious thought. When the stinky stuff hits the fan, I guarantee we will not be giving much conscious thought and will be operating on past training and experience. We can get practice, and it's only valuable when enough of it is done to result in actions that are pretty well programmed into our head. Lots of practice is done that doesn't relate much to actual SHTF circumstances. Actual experience, on the other hand, is something we fortunately do not get much chance to acquire! We can kinda learn from the experiences of others and that can help, but what will we actually do when we are in a similar situation? I can say that I have been fortunate to have survived when I was standing gawking when I should have been moving! It's also been my experience that I did a lot more reacting than acting. Unless you are the aggressor, you have no real idea what the aggressor is going to do or when he's (she's) going to do it! We almost always start out behind the curve because much of what we will do is in reaction to what someone else has already started to do!

I'm not being critical of anything that's been said here. I'm just saying that the reality of any situation is pretty much a law unto itself, and all of us have somewhat different responses that we may not be able to know about till after the smoke clears. It's a very serious business. Lot's of things we do to our tools may actually get in the way of getting the job done, but boy do they look cool! But each of us must decide whether or not what we do and what we carry and how we use it has a good chance of actually working and making it easier to get the job done. And we have to be very honest with ourselves before we get to locked in to what we think we will do in a situation. The most important thing that needs to work is me!!!

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So long ... Ken

- No assumptions, just stated fact. Point shooting doesn't work best in real life, otherwise every police department would still be teaching it.

- Turning out the lights: Exactly my point. Shooting from eye level using both hands will align you more reliably on your target than point shooting, whether or not you can see the sights. It's the difference between riding a bicycle and riding a unicycle.
(Two handed at eye level is what the deal is, not in particular the Weaver Stance.)

- Nobody said anything about bullseye or "the 2" group, paper-puncher target slot, with tall, gold dot Patridge sights", now you're just making stuff up. Life tip: It doesn't help your credibility.

- Once again: Aimed fire beats point shooting even in circumstances that would seem to specifically favor point shooting, that being extremely close and fast. The more stressful the situation, the more the technique that was shaky to begin with will fall apart, much more rapidly than one that was solid. Inside of arm's reach, then yes point shooting works fine.

- "Denigrate"? I think the word you're looking for is "debate". If you can't stand to have your prejudices questioned, then don't ask for input. And I don't know who told you I have no experience or know-how, or haven't tried point v. aimed fire, or haven't been in a gunfight, but you might want to move them down a little on your reliable source list.

Here is where you started:

- If it's dark, then a light might help, no?

- If you're planning on shooting at an unidentified shadow or sound, well, good luck in court. I doubt even a jury full of gun owners would approve of that. Heck, you'd be hard-pressed to find any that would be okay with that when hunting, let alone potentially taking human life.

- Why ask people for different methods when you're just going to attack them with personal insults? You even specified "Flashlights/lasers".





For those who say you just have to practice, again, do you think you practice more, and more seriously, than an LEO who ran the range for a department bigger than the armies of a lot of nations? Or a guy who hip-shoots chickens at 50 yards?



Here's a lil' anecdote from somebody who you'd think would be Mr. Quick Draw & Point Shoot, and an exemplar to fans of ol' timey shootin'.

Wild Bill Hickok, in a fairly small, darkened bar room, beset by five attackers, a perfect match for the point-shooting crowd, right? Did he say he drew faster than ever, or that there was no time to aim? Nope. He said "I never aimed so deliberately in my life."

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TEAM DNF

This is all fun to talk about on the internet, but it's more fun to actually do it at the range. Come on out. You can point shoot and I'll use my sights. Any course of fire you want. Low light, bright sun, out to 25 yards, 3 yards, kneeling, standing, prone, barricade, no-shoot targets,...whatever.

No closed mind here. As I said, which some seem to have missed, point shooting has its place. It's just not the only way.


Addendum:
Just for the record, Jack Weaver wasn't shooting slow-fire bullseye targets. He was competing against the best of the fast draw shooters of his time. He used his sights and beat them all, starting from the holster.

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Freedom isn't free.

Once more thing:

suzieq, as we have talked about in the past, I believe you can do what you say. The vast majority of point shooters don't, won't, put in the practice you have.

I would still love to go shooting with you.

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Freedom isn't free.

I think the reason that point shooting has fallen out of favor with L.E.
is all the work involved in getting officers qualified these days. Not very
many are 'gun guys & gals" some departments have had to go to smaller
calibers and low recoil rounds just to get the rank and files qualified.


From my own personal experience and close observation, most
at least in the state agency I've work and shot with,
are not the greatest of marksmen.


I came out of the old school, I can point shoot,
can use aimed fire to my advantage at various ranges.
I once downed 10 of 10 steels rams at
two hundred meters standing off hand, from the Weaver stance with a S&W 29.
All disciplines adds to ones repertoire.


Fixed stances and aimed fire is all well and good. It's kinda like
having a guitar and cordin' & strumming along and singin the song.
But, if you are a real guitar player and can pick it....Cause as the ol adage goes,
"If a guitar picker really picks it good, he picks a Fender!"


Point shooting / instinctive shooting has been in my world for over half of a century.
When, as a boy we had long bows and handmade arrows, later recurve bows and
store bought cedar arrows, none had sights.
My first firearms were hand me downs, some times the sight
were worn down, filed down, or just plain missing.



I learned to shoot with these relics. The first revolver I acquired was a well worn Colt SAA,
a 45 Long Colt with a percent or two of it's original finish. A point shootin son of a gun for sure.
Whether instinctive point shooting is a natural hand eye thing or a practiced skill.
It has served me well for many years.


That is all.

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

DAVE:

What I'd say is that you seem to have a problem with semantics and a mindset firmly locked in concrete. Again, you seem to be totally ignoring the stated scenarios and the physiology of the human eye. A bright light, even momentarily, will destroy night vision. And that bright light, or laser, will give up your defensive position. Do you think someone who has broken into your house at O-dark-thirty might be slightly wired and ready to put a shot on that light in an instant, or is he just going to pose nicely so you can get that pretty sight picture? Going into a two-handed, fully upright and square to your target, Weaver isosceles or not, and firmly planting your feet stance, then bringing your handgun into firing position in the dark without a sight picture... Well, if you can't SEE the darned sights, exactly what is it you think you were doing? Sighting, or point shooting? Squaring off and giving someone the largest target possible is Hollywood cowboy stuff and utterly foolish within the parameters proposed!

Your own example proves the point. And for SD/HD purposes, I for one would do my utmost best to never present myself broadside in such a situation. Were you ever taught to shoot from cover, or have heard the term "get small"? As a Range Officer, have you ever taught such a thing to anyone? If not, I would propose a great dereliction of training/duty on ANY department neglecting the concept. Paper scores don't necessarily equate with how anyone reacts to being in a situation in which one must try to preserve his own life.

Yes, I asked for input and opinions, NOT dogma and doctrine chiseled in stone. Shooting should be a flexible and adaptive thing, and you are obviously closed minded to anything other than what you KNOW AS A FACT (Earth used to be flat, too!), rather that considering what you might learn. Brings to mind the know-it-all Bubbas and Sidewalk Commandos of that CC class of which I mentioned.

I lean heavily on the sides of those who have traveled a far longer and rougher road than thou when it comes to the shooting craft. Long live Applegate, Keith, Fairbairn, Jordan and their brethren.

AR BT KKKKKK Over and out!

Reminds me of some graduate school seminars I attended. They rarely produced a hell of a lot of agreement either, but often got testy.

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Oh well, what the hell.

IN 1979 I went to the S&W Officer Survival School. The emphasis was on point shooting fast and accurately.
By the third day 15-20 ft center hits were no problem from the holster. From the Jordan Border holster there was
no problem getting the first 2 off in the K5 in less than a second. (unsnapped) The last day they put you inside a 3 sided box.
There were 3 targets behind you at different heights. They pinned a badge on one. The lights were turned down to almost nothing and
turned your back to the targets..
On command you drew turned picked the non badge targets and put 2 rounds in each. Most did it in 4-5 seconds. 2 Md. 
Troopers did it in 3. Masaad A. wrote he did it in 3 but shot the badge. I wouldn't have bragged about it. I practiced what they
taught my whole career. As an instructor practice ammo wasn't a problem but I would have done it if I had to buy or reload my own.
At qualifications I could guarantee every shot in the K5 up to 7yds and never look at my sights with revolver or 92g. It takes practice
but once you get used to doing it point shooting 15 to 20 feet is no problem.   

I agree with BK and Rastoff in that at "hey!, there's spinach in your teeth" range I practice belly shooting. At 6 to 10ish feet I practice point shooting as if I were pointing at a passing beer truck.

I learned this way and am at home with it. If someone else is more adept at shooting backwards with a hand mirror then good on them. The object being to survive.

I've been given things to think about and not think about in this thread and I believe that was the intended purpose of this exercise.

Carry on.....smoke 'em if ya got 'em.

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Music/Sports/Beer fan

"I've been given things to think about and not think about in this thread and I believe that was the intended purpose of this exercise."

RUSTY:

FINALLY... You busted it right in the "X"!!!

Suzieqz: Some of the ranges here are like this and we can shoot at whatever distance we want. This is me shooting one of the internet snubby monthly matches.

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We all have different chances to train and how to train. I don't have a pop up target course to test my mettle and the targets don't shoot back. I'd like to repeat that in spite of some ruffled hairs that this debate is extremely valuable. Everybody's boat that they have to float is different.

I'll either need to turn on a light or have a big flashlight. I don't see too well coming either into bright light or the dark and I'm NOT going to go shooting in the dark, unless I see spurts of flame coming my way.

I told the story before about the SEAL who said that when he drew his gun he start firing at the perp's feet as he drew up his gun up He might hit something and even if he doesn't getting shot at is going to throw a person off.

One thing the point and shoot as shown in the FBI video is how the shooter drops and moves to the right. I doubt if I'd be able to accomplish it though.

I don't shoot and get shot at for a living, so all I can do is train for different scenarios. I believe that once I have all the lighting, stance and draw down pat the next huge problem is hesitancy to shoot in an instant. I can't train for that.


PS George Carlin did show us how to 'get small'.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I'll take all the advantage I can get if it ever comes to a gunfight.

My preferred self defense weapon will have night sights, laser, and holo sight, grenade launcher optional but desired.

Of course all of this would be cumbersome to tote around as EDC so compromises need to be made.

Concealed carry is a prerequisite, as any advertisement of being armed is effectively placing a target on your back.

What you can carry and what you will carry is a decision you should make early on. Everything is a trade-off. Size, weight, effective power, and accuracy in the hands of the holder.

Getting to the point: Ending an armed attack, once it has begun, is all about shot placement. Having said that, avoiding such a dire situation through a well developed situational awareness when simple avoidance (don't go there!) is not possible. These two factors are anyone's best defensive practice.

Response Time: Smooth is Fast, but speed is of the essense. In my own case I train in all of the above disciplines. I train for a triple tap. First shot is going to be pure instinct, not at the feet, but at center mass. Second shot will be point shooting as I acquire the front sight in center mass (I like "Big Dots"). The third shot will be fully aimed fire, a headshot if available.

digiroc

EDIT: As has been posted above in other words: "No battle plan survives contact with the enemy" and the above does not mean I will be a stationary target. i.e. Weaver Stance in bulls eye aiming mode. Situational awareness is especially important as the situation will always be fluid. I'll move to available cover, establish clear shooting lanes, and a multitude of other factors as they come up.