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Old 09-01-2017, 06:50 PM
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Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17 Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17 Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17 Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17 Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17  
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Default Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17

Got a pleasant reminder today that Sunday, Sept. 17 is the premiere of the long-awaited Ken Burns film on Viet Nam. From this article I read, it sounds like this is going to be an excellent piece and well worth watching. A tremendous undertaking, and I'm sure he will do it justice.

Ken Burns and Lynn Novick Tackle the Vietnam War - The New York Times
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Old 09-01-2017, 06:58 PM
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Thanks for the heads up!
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Old 09-01-2017, 07:08 PM
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Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17 Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17 Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17 Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17 Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17  
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Thanks for the heads up!
Ditto

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Old 09-01-2017, 09:52 PM
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I have his masterful "The Civil War", "Baseball", and "The War" on CD. I'm betting this one will have to join the collection. Definitely looks like a must.
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Old 09-02-2017, 08:26 AM
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Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17 Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17 Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17 Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17 Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17  
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In a previous thread about this, I had hoped that a worthy historian would be prominently featured, as Shelby Foote was in the Civil War film. I have changed my mind, though, after reading the article and realizing that Burns and Novick's choices of commentators in this one reflect a deliberate decision based on the nature of the subject. I really look forward to seeing how the wide range of interviewees, including Vietnamese on both sides, will contribute to a balance of viewpoints and experiences that, in itself, will make for some pretty compelling history.
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Old 09-02-2017, 10:51 AM
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In a previous thread about this, I had hoped that a worthy historian would be prominently featured, as Shelby Foote was in the Civil War film.
If Burns was doing the Civil War documentary today, I doubt whether his use
of someone like Foote, and his generally sympathetic and compassionate treatment
of The Confederacy and the people there would be so well received.
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Old 09-02-2017, 11:03 AM
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Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17 Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17 Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17 Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17 Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17  
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Thanks for the reminder. I'm looking forward to this one. His previous works have been excellent and I have high hopes for this one.


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Old 09-02-2017, 07:10 PM
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Hmm, article by the NYT and broadcast on PBS... I can tell right now how this is going to be played out. Hope you Vietnam vets are ready to see yourselves portrayed as both both baby-killing war criminals who invaded a peaceful country and unwitting victims of a corrupt US government bent on unjustly perpetuating an anti-Communist ideology. No doubt the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong will be shown as "freedom fighters" courageously battling a corrupt South Vietnamese dictatorship that was propped up by the US. Yeah, think I'd rather go slam my hand in the car door.
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Old 09-02-2017, 08:36 PM
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Hmm, article by the NYT and broadcast on PBS... I can tell right now how this is going to be played out. Hope you Vietnam vets are ready to see yourselves portrayed as both both baby-killing war criminals who invaded a peaceful country and unwitting victims of a corrupt US government bent on unjustly perpetuating an anti-Communist ideology. No doubt the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong will be shown as "freedom fighters" courageously battling a corrupt South Vietnamese dictatorship that was propped up by the US. Yeah, think I'd rather go slam my hand in the car door.
Amen to that. Not a fan of Burns, anyway. I always detested the way he presented "The Civil War", and managed to make it about slavery from the outset, and the way he romanticized the conflict with the music. There was nothing that could take the disgust from the killing on both sides of the war.

I own, and have read Shelby Foote's trilogy, and it's among the best histories of the 1861-1865 conflict.

There are over 58000 reasons why I won't be watching his series. I won't contribute to the tarring of their memories again, and I won't shed any more tears than those I shed when I did funeral details in 1969-1970. 47 years still isn't long enough.
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Old 09-02-2017, 10:28 PM
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I don't have the gift of prescience. I'll have to wait and see how it's presented before drawing conclusions.
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Old 09-02-2017, 10:33 PM
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Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17 Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17 Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17 Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17 Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17  
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I think some folks commenting haven't read the linked article.

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Old 09-03-2017, 12:13 AM
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Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17 Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17 Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17 Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17 Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17  
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I think some folks commenting haven't read the linked article.
Safe bet, I think.
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Old 09-03-2017, 01:13 AM
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I don't have the gift of prescience. I'll have to wait and see how it's presented before drawing conclusions.
Does this mean you aren't gonna tell me if I'll win the Powerball jackpot next week?
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Old 09-03-2017, 01:31 AM
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He's not too big on guns either; for that matter neither was Steven Ambrose. Their account of the Lewis & Clark expedition has no mention of weapons, regardless of the fact that the members of the expedition were US soldiers. No mention of shooting any of the grizzly bears they encountered, no mention of the air rifle, no mention of shooting the elk they subsisted on for a large part of their journey. Appaarently the elk took off their hides and jumped willingly into the cooking pot.

His programs seem to be biased towards the extreme left, and with such a sensitive subject as Vietnam I doubt there will be a balanced account of the war.
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Old 09-03-2017, 05:11 AM
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Default I'm not going to let.....

I'm not going to let the 'slant' or whatever turn me off from watching it. I'm looking for information and perspective. If people still feel that 'The Civil War' rankled that badly I'd say this had better be avoided. Both wars were political hell holes and there's no way to please everybody, not even close. Watching it isn't going to make me an instant 'convert' to anything.
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Old 09-03-2017, 10:27 AM
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Amen to that. Not a fan of Burns, anyway. I always detested the way he presented "The Civil War", and managed to make it about slavery from the outset, and the way he romanticized the conflict with the music. There was nothing that could take the disgust from the killing on both sides of the war.
Years before Burn's distorted presentation of the War of the Northern Aggression there was another multi part documentary on the subject. Shelby Foote was a major contributor to that presentation also. That series was much more accurate on the causes of the war. I had that documentary on VHS tapes but it's long gone. Burn's interpretation of the war prompted me to never watch any more of his work.
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Old 09-03-2017, 10:31 AM
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I'll watch it when it's run.
A rave review by the NYT is a warning I may not like it!
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Old 09-03-2017, 11:00 AM
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Thanks for the heads up. Having watched the Civil War one I really don't have high expectations.
I doubt if he will inform the public of how they were persuaded to think during the war, to the point of treating our Military Vets with disdain. It might make them aware of how they are lead around by the media today.
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Old 09-03-2017, 12:39 PM
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I read Karnow's Vietnam history and watched his tv series. Both well done, I thought. VIETNAM: THE 10,000 DAY WAR - CBC - COMPLETE SERIES - YouTube

McMaster's "Dereliction of Duty" is a helluva good read...

As for the NYT, I quit reading that MANY years ago.

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Old 09-03-2017, 03:06 PM
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Hate. Now that's a powerful word.
Reservations...............I like that word better.
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Old 09-03-2017, 04:58 PM
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I do know that I really enjoyed "The Civil War". I've read more than a half dozen full histories by some of the best authors, and any knowledge that I pick up watching will be filed away in my head along with them. If 'Vietnam' is close to the depth and treatment, I'm going to enjoy it.
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Old 09-03-2017, 07:06 PM
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I liked both his Civil War and WWII series, so I will definitely give this one a look.
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Old 09-04-2017, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by ChuckS1 View Post
Hmm, article by the NYT and broadcast on PBS... I can tell right now how this is going to be played out. Hope you Vietnam vets are ready to see yourselves portrayed as both both baby-killing war criminals who invaded a peaceful country and unwitting victims of a corrupt US government bent on unjustly perpetuating an anti-Communist ideology. No doubt the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong will be shown as "freedom fighters" courageously battling a corrupt South Vietnamese dictatorship that was propped up by the US. Yeah, think I'd rather go slam my hand in the car door.
Hope you're wrong, but I'm afraid you nailed it. Having been there, I don't need to be told about the war by somebody who wasn't.
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Old 09-04-2017, 11:59 AM
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Excerpted from the NYT article linked in the initial post:

"....In approaching the subject, Mr. Burns and Ms. Novick set some ground rules. No historians or other expert talking heads. No onscreen interviews with polarizing boldfaced names like John Kerry, John McCain, Henry Kissinger and Jane Fonda, or anyone with “an interest in having history break the way they want it to break,” as Mr. Burns put it. (The filmmakers met with Mr. McCain and Mr. Kerry for advice early on, and said both were supportive. Some other prominent figures expressed interest in being interviewed, Mr. Burns said, and were politely rebuffed.)

Instead, the 79 onscreen interviews give the ground-up view of the war from the mostly ordinary people who lived through it: American veterans (including former P.O.W.’s), Gold Star mothers, diplomats, intelligence officers, antiwar activists, journalists, Vietcong fighters, North and South Vietnamese army regulars, even a (woman) truck driver from the Ho Chi Minh Trail...."

"...John Musgrave, a Marine combat veteran from Baldwin City, Kan., who appears in the film, said he had heard from veterans of varying political stripes who had already decided they were against the film.

The way we were treated after the war made us pretty sensitive, but I tell them, ‘Man, just watch it,’” Mr. Musgrave said. “The film just tells the historical story and the personal story of the war. I didn’t get the impression there’s any ax to grind.”...
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Old 09-04-2017, 05:09 PM
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Thanks, Onomea. Unfortunately, there are some who will not open their minds even a crack to watch something they might find interesting and -- God forbid -- informative. Their loss.

They already know it all, you see.
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Old 09-04-2017, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Having been there, I don't need to be told about the war by somebody who wasn't.
Here's a news flash. The people who will be talking in the documentary and telling their stories about the war will be a lot of ordinary soldiers who were there. From both sides. Also probably historians, diplomats, news people, maybe some nurses and doctors who were there. Company commanders, first sergeants, platoon leaders. Pilots, Marines, chopper pilots, gunship pilots and gunners, seabees, motor pool guys, etc., etc. I seriously doubt you'll even hear the voice of Ken Burns during the whole series, unless he does some little pre- or post-documentary commentary on the series.

I'd recommend all Vietnam veterans watch it...those who can handle it emotionally. Some probably won't be able to handle it. It's going to be hard to watch. Veterans may even see film footage or stills of their units, or see their friends in the background, who knows. They may see friends and brothers dying or wounded. It's a long documentary, and there will be lots of unseen footage and photos. It's been ten years in the making. I know I'll be watching every episode, and I'll be scanning the footage, looking for people I knew, some of whom didn't make it home alive.

Then again, some of y'all could stay up on your high horses and watch reruns of Gunsmoke or Combat or something...something that bears little or no relation to reality, something that will never have any effect at all on your lives.
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Old 09-04-2017, 07:50 PM
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I am not a VN vet, but I know for some vets, not watching has more to do with not wanting to relive the experience, and the complicated, painful memories and emotions it roils to the surface, for some vets, rather than a belief that they will find the film vapid, biased, or inaccurate.

I can understand that reasoning, and so believe it a personal choice, whether to watch or not.

I don't agree with not watching it for fear or certainty, even worse, that it will be biased.

In my reading, I try to read views from across the political spectrum on contentious topics. I don't want to be locked into anyone's idealogical echo box. And I don't agree with anyone all the time, including myself. I think changing my views, based on a better understanding, or new information, is normal.

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Old 09-04-2017, 11:40 PM
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I probably will not watch, It's not for the reasons provided here. I do avoid movies, books and documentaries about Vietnam. I lived through it and the home coming.

Everyone has a point of view and they are entitled to it. But we need not attack someone for posting a suggestion or advising us of a movie he thinks other might find interesting.
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Old 09-05-2017, 06:09 AM
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History marches on and leaves a lot behind it that will never be told and never be understood. The prejudice exhibited in this thread, however, has everything to do with today's politics and little to do with the politics of the period.
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Old 09-05-2017, 06:19 AM
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Interestingly, and I am not sure if I agree with this thesis or not, but the article linked in Vigil's original post also says:

..."It [the Vietnam War] also offers an uncannily well-timed reflection of our current societal fractures — a kind of origin story for the culture wars that still have us asking: Which side are you on?

'The seeds of disunion we experience today, the polarization, the lack of civil discourse all had their seeds in Vietnam,” Mr. Burns said. “I can’t imagine a better way to help pull out some of the fuel rods that create this radioactive atmosphere than to talk about Vietnam in a calm way.'"
...

Still, I had a modern Japanese history prof in grad school, some 35-40 years ago, who was probably quoting someone else, who said, "History is a seamless web." Hard to argue with that...
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Old 09-05-2017, 07:00 AM
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Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17 Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17 Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17 Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17 Don't forget...Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam starts Sept. 17  
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Originally Posted by Onomea View Post
Interestingly, and I am not sure if I agree with this thesis or not, but the article linked in Vigil's original post also says:

..."It [the Vietnam War] also offers an uncannily well-timed reflection of our current societal fractures — a kind of origin story for the culture wars that still have us asking: Which side are you on?

'The seeds of disunion we experience today, the polarization, the lack of civil discourse all had their seeds in Vietnam,” Mr. Burns said. “I can’t imagine a better way to help pull out some of the fuel rods that create this radioactive atmosphere than to talk about Vietnam in a calm way.'"
...

Still, I had a modern Japanese history prof in grad school, some 35-40 years ago, who was probably quoting someone else, who said, "History is a seamless web." Hard to argue with that...
I found Burns' theory interesting, too, and like you, I haven't decided whether I completely agree with it, but there is hardly any denying that Vietnam marked a time when national unity that had remained intact since World War II began to fracture noticeably, and it's only gotten worse since then.

Speaking only for myself, I look at this series as a way to learn more about why this has happened to us, why the desire to understand something better is apparently so threatening to folks whose opinions are so set in stone (as if that were a good thing) that they not only refuse to be willing to open their minds but also scorn those who are.

By the way, I do understand completely that some combat veterans might not want to watch something that would be upsetting to them. They have my gratitude for having fought in a war I was too young for (though if it had gone on for very much longer, I would have been in that age zone), and I hope I honor their sacrifices by wanting to know more about what they went through, beyond what's already been published and filmed and told.

It's interesting, though, isn't it, that such a terrible and divisive and scarring war still has such a capacity to bring us into conflict with each other? I guess it is ever so, as it seems the Civil War still has that effect also. The "seamless web."
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Old 09-05-2017, 07:47 AM
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I have a mind and believe I am able to separate the wheat from the chaff. Doesn't matter who does stuff like this there is always some of both. I will take that wheat and let the chaff blow away in the wind.
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Old 09-05-2017, 02:09 PM
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Spent 67/68 in Vietnam.

I definitely will watch and make up my own mind.
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Old 09-06-2017, 09:56 AM
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Old 09-07-2017, 12:28 AM
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I was lucky enough to attend a preview of the series in Portland, Oregon back in July. I am certain it will prompt a lot of discussion. As a Vietnam veteran I found the interviews and stories of the NVA troops VERY interesting. From the little we were shown, I am looking forward to seeing more and highly recommend watching this.
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Old 09-15-2017, 12:35 AM
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On Monday, the Vietnam series will start on PBS. I have serious concerns regarding how this series will play out, especially in the politically correct world we live in. I was a Marine assigned to a Tank company for 21 months in 1969-1970 and like many other Marines, lost friends and saw what a giant cluster the whole war was. Nothing was gained and the only thing we have to show for it is a black wall with 58,000 + names on it. I want the politicians held accountable for the many American deaths that resulted from the on again, off again bombings in the north and these idiotic cease fires that allowed the enemy to regroup and refit. These people may be responsible for as many American deaths as the NVA/VC by their failure to act.

As a Marine, I am very proud of my service and of the Marines I served with. These young men were warriors and would follow a leader into hell ,and many of them did. I want these people that were more concerned with getting reelected than the young men and women that were dying for absolutely nothing in a war that we never intended to win to be remembered in history as the sorry scumbags that they were.

I have vented enough and pray for healing in a country that is divided as we are. It is almost like 1968 all over again. Semper Fi,

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Old 09-15-2017, 05:54 AM
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Hello B.T., I've enjoyed previous Ken Burns documentaries, and am looking forward to this one. We might wish it otherwise, but politicians from that era who may have been complicit were not, and will never be, held accountable. The Vietnam War is ancient history to today's generation, and I don't think most politicians, or the public, care one way or the other about what happened 40-50 years ago, in a little country halfway around the world. In any case, many of the top political and military leaders responsible for directing US involvement in that conflict are deceased, and beyond Man's judgement......
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Old 09-17-2017, 09:17 AM
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Bumping my thread just as a reminder that the 10-part series begins tonight at 8 p.m. on PBS. First episode will focus on Vietnam emerging from French colonial rule as an independent nation. If you miss it tonight, you can see it re-run at 8 p.m. each night this week through Thursday.
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Old 09-17-2017, 09:42 AM
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I only watch documentaries and read histories that agree with MY version of what happened. They're the correct, unbiased ones.
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Old 09-17-2017, 09:52 AM
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Thanks for the reminder. I found it interesting that it was heavily advertised on the football games I was watching last evening. I can't recall--but maybe I have never noticed--a PBS special being so generally advertised. I have no doubt it will be a masterpiece of documentary film making. If it helps one vet heal, or at least come to terms with that nightmare, it will be worth all the effort.

I sat with a Air Force navigator (C-130) yesterday at our son's football games. He had on the most casual of clothes--nothing with the slightest indication he serves in the military. He told me he avoids wearing military dress, other than when he absolutely has to, because he is so embarrassed by the overwhelming support, compliments and encouragement he gets. He said that people almost make him cry every time they are so kind to him.

I can't imagine having to wear civilian clothes all the time because you get spit on, called a murderer or child killer. No wonder the war still generates such strong emotions even today.
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Old 09-17-2017, 11:53 AM
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I only watch documentaries and read histories that agree with MY version of what happened. They're the correct, unbiased ones.
Did you leave off the <wink> symbol by mistake, chaparrito, or is the sarcasm supposed to be so extreme as to be unmistakable?

I only ask because the impression I've gotten from some who've responded to this thread is that their approach to documentaries is exactly as you've described -- but I took the respondents to be dead serious.

I'm still trying to figure out how someone can know without watching it what a documentary's take is going to be and whether it matches with what their understanding and opinion are. Reading a review or pre-broadcast analysis (see original post) can help, of course, but some folks don't seem to be willing to do that.

I guess that, like shouldazagged, my gifts of prescience don't rise to the level of other people's.
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Old 09-17-2017, 11:56 AM
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Thanks for the reminder.
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Old 09-17-2017, 12:03 PM
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Got a pleasant reminder today that Sunday, Sept. 17 is the premiere of the long-awaited Ken Burns film on Viet Nam. From this article I read, it sounds like this is going to be an excellent piece and well worth watching. A tremendous undertaking, and I'm sure he will do it justice.

Ken Burns and Lynn Novick Tackle the Vietnam War - The New York Times
Ill take this or an overdose of Suddenly Susan--over football any day.
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Old 09-17-2017, 04:19 PM
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I really never much cared for documentaries
and I was there when a lot of the stuff they talk about in this particular documentary happened, (up to the end of '68 that is).

But I never watched any of his other documentaries or movies or whatever, either. Starz Western Channel is my choice.

So I guess I'll pass on it. I'm glad I don't have to choose between this documentary and NFL Football-I think I'd choose a power outage (but it'll be the Western Channel).
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Old 09-17-2017, 05:32 PM
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Grit TV is all I get to get my Westerns fix with--and then only part time while at work. Seems TCM is skipping showing Westerns as much as possible now that Robert Osbourne has passed away. I might add a Grr to that too. :-((
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Old 09-17-2017, 07:16 PM
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I'm looking forward to it.
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Old 09-17-2017, 09:30 PM
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Well..............just watched episode one. Not a bad history lesson.

And I don't care too much for Mr. Burns.
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Old 09-17-2017, 09:51 PM
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Many people have forgotten, or don't know history, period. If this brings a little more knowledge of the Vietnam War to the general public, good.
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Old 09-17-2017, 10:03 PM
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I liked it too. My wife commented afterward, "I didn't realize [the prelude to war] had been so complicated." I agreed with her. I had no idea, for instance, that Ho Chi Minh had such a long history as a Vietnamese nationalist going back to before World War I and that he was actively supported by the United States for a time during World War II. But for Truman's choice to support the French in trying to re-establish their pre-war domination of Indochina, who knows what might have happened or what might have been avoided. Interesting, too, that Ho quoted Thomas Jefferson when addressing the Vietnamese people after Vietnam had achieved independence from the French. His Viet Minh supporters, including his future general, Giap, were a ruthless and violent bunch, though -- burying people alive, among other things. That country endured an awful lot of war before we ever came on the scene. Reminded me of Afghanistan in that way.

Looking forward to Episode 2.
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Old 09-17-2017, 10:10 PM
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Looking forward to Episode 2 next week.
Episode 2 is tomorrow at 7:00 PM CDT here. Nine more one hour episodes for a total of 10 parts to the series. My DVR is set up in case I'm away for some reason.
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