they wil get people killed.
get this.
my little sis wanted a hand gun for home defense n protection from snakes while hiking.fine, i told her to get a full size, all steel gun. also suggested getting a 22lr for fun n training.
reasonable, right.
well she took a class. she decided 22s were toys.
fine.
took her concealed carry class which told me she was fibbing about what she wanted a gun for.

but then she went out n got a s&w boot gun!
i
forget the model but it's 40 cal.

well maybe she has hands like steel n can shoot a meaningful practice round with a teeny gun with plastic parts.
but the bad thing is, the gun came with a laser.
she thinks, that she can hit whatever she gets the laser on.
so, no need to practice.
she is now walking around with a lethal weapon with no practice whatsoever.
she claims she will join a club in fall, when she has time.
meanwhile, who knows who she wiLL kill.
i've told her THOUSANDS of times about the importance of practice, but, if you have a laser, who needs practice?
i work hard at shooting well.
i gave her all the advice you would.
but, she has a laser.
i wonder how many people are walking around who need no practice because they have a laser.
it's magic, after all.
i'm gonna go hide under my bed.

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susie

Well that's a shame but a lot of competent shooters use laser, and a lot of incompetent shooters do not use lasers. I have not personally experiences someone thinking a laser means they need no practise. No offense but your sister sounds a bit stubborn!

stubborn runs in the family, but i refuse to believe she is alone in this.

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susie

Lasers are great for showing how unsteady your aim really is. I thought that why susieqz wanted them banned.

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Release the Kraken

Chances are she wouldn't put in the practice either way. But as far as banning lasers? That may be a bit much. Try asking her what she plans on doing when the batteries run out unexpectedly. Or when it's a bright day out. I, for one, like lasers. But they should be used as an addition, not a crutch.

I hate to say it suzieqz, but your sister sounds like a bit of a buffoon if she thinks no practice but a laser will help protect her. First of all, who says the laser is actually on target if the pistol hasn't even been shot? I've bought 2 Sig Sauer pistols in the past that came with add on lasers on the rail and neither were correctly sighted in. And in the second place, good luck with her even seeing the darn laser in bright light unless the perp is within arm's reach. I don't know about the green lasers, but the red ones don't show up worth beans in bright daylight. And heaven forbid if the perp (target) is pretty close to the same color as the laser beam.

ok, i get it. you guys love lasers,i should change the title to BAN STUPID SISTERS.
lasers wouldn't do me much good. i shoot at 25 n 50 yards.
if i point shoot it's from the hip.
i'm pretty good at this stuff, because i practice every single week.

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susie

well, i can't seem to edit the title, for you laser lovers, but i tried.
i have no objection to people who know what they are doing using lasers.

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susie

Susie, have have seen the people with the same attitude as your sister and it's not pretty. Conceal carry class where they have to shoot, Can't hit the LE target at 10 yards and the laser is jumping all over the place.

She might get one decent shot off but a .40 cal in a light weight gun is pretty snappy. I can't shoot one but I can shoot .357, .41, & .45 in a heavier metal gun.

And yes, some instructors push the use of small semi-autos for self-defense.

I dislike lasers too.

They are gadgets in place of skill.

If you're using a laser, you're looking at the wrong thing.

Remember?

Front sight!! Front sight!!

again, i have no objection to people who know what they are doing using lasers.
i assume that any member of this forum practices.
i'm not sure what they are good for tho. at the ranges you use a laser, do you really need any sight?

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susie

NEVER a laser on any of my handguns!!!

The closest I'll ever get to one mounted on anything is a reflex sight, along with a Streamlight, mounted on a Black Rifle for varmint control at night. And the sight is set on the finest green dot at the lowest brightness. There is just too much glare with the red.

I MIGHT think about getting one if I can find a Buck Rogers ray-gun pretty cheap at one of the local gun shows.

the gun she has is a shield.
i doubt i could fire 100+ rounds with that, so, meaningful training is unlikely.
i talked myself blue in the face, explaining the advantages of full size, all metal guns to learn on, but it didn't work.
heck, that's all i shoot because i like to hit what i aim at.
yes, you can conceal a full size gun. i wear a cowboy drop holster all day long because it's comfy.
if i wanna conceal it, i just pull on a full skirt over it.
takes 2 seconds.
guys, i'm just venting here. i'm not criticizing your questionable choices.

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susie

If they BAN STUPID SISTERS I would be the only child of my deceased parents. Mine's over sixty years old and still don't have an ounce of common sense.

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You want me to do what?

Lasers are only good for when they are sighted to a certain distance.
Example...
I have a sreamlight with laser on my bedstand. It is sighted for the opposite wall. That's where the perp would be. This is a wake up to bad noises kinda thing. If I'm lucky.
Oh, the Streamlight has momentary as well as strobe.

So I can actuate light and laser and center-punch at that distance.
Anything closer or farther, it's gonna be high or low.
Daylight it is absolutely useless.
She needs to realize the limitations. But you already know that.
Sorry to ramble, but It's a specialized type of equipment. Certainly useless for everyday carry.

This is how you edit the title

Your sister has a lot of company.

It's my unofficial decades-long casual observation that a great many with carry permits rarely fire the gun beyond what is required to obtain the permit.

As far as gun owners in general I'd be surprised if more than 10% show up to the range even once a year. A few years back, our club had a purging of the membership. About a third hadn't shown up in years. I'm sure some were lifetime members with expired lives, but still... tons of people who are members of shooting ranges don't even practice.

As gun enthusiasts we might see this as unacceptable. For the general public it's normal.

Hey suzie, I wish I could carry my full size 1911 like that but if I tried the full skirt I am afraid I would have a problem or two at the range!LOL, just kidding. I don't care for the lazer idea either, the only time I held one the range master at the Abilene gun club had one, I aimed at the wall and couldn't believe how unsteady my hand was. I gave it back to him and went to practice a little harder. I agree with you on your sisters choice of handgun, obviously you and her don't share the same ideals. Bet she doesn't like cats either! Good luck!

I use a 40c SW for my primary concealed carry. It took lots of practice to get competent with it. The 40 is definitely a round you need to practice with otherwise you will be shooting all over the place. The snap and recoil are way more than my 357 and 45's. I dont use a laser and would not be able to comment ont hat part.

I might suggest getting your sister to take a basic NRA Training Class on Pistols to start her in the right direction. I suggest that you get people other than your family to talk to her about her pistol training, knowing how to clean the firearm safely, and the legal ways that she must store the weapon safely and legally.

I use an 9 mm Glock G-17 for my first handgun to uss the high capacity round magazine's I own in 17 rounds and 31 round in a Glock magazine.
We will end up purchasing a second Glock handgun in .40 caliper, .45 caliper, & 10 mm full size. The main reason is the ability to just change just the barrel to change calipers to any caliper, except 9 mm without changing a any parts. This is why I choose Glock, as my first choice. I just wish that I had acquired the Glock Gunsmith only manual, as I would have purchased a .40 caliper for this reason.

She's not but there are probably just as many of not more people carrying without lasers and with zero practice. My dad being one of those. He doesn't carry because he's too lazy to but he likes the idea of it. Got himself a permit and wanted a small gun.... what he really wanted was my model 36 snubby. I was going to give it to him but ONLY after he went with me to the range because I know he can't shoot a d I know he thinks that you just point the gun and pull the trigger....no need for practice. Anyway, it took me a year to convince him to come with me to the range! Why? Because he has no interest in it! At 5 yards he couldn't hit paper! That came as a shock to him ..... apparently it's not as easy as he thought! Still doesn't carry or practice!

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

thanks m1520. i changed the title.

in my opinion, if you carry, you have a moral n ethical obligation to practice.

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susie

practice is all.
we all have stupid relatives.
Suzie Q, I'm with you

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and what his trumpet saith

A laser can be a good training tool. Take her to the range and let her see what kind of a group she can shoot at 15 yards with the laser, in bright daylight. I'd wager 10-20% of the shots may not be on the target. See how the laser jumps all over when you are holding it, and by trying to concentrate on the laser, you aren't watching what the heck is going on in front of you. Tell her to keep in mind if she is in a gun fight a laser makes a good "aiming point" for her opponent.

I don't have or use a laser. I had one for awhile, and thought of all the downsides and disposed of it.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

I dont want to train to something that requires an $8 battery, I know everyone's heard of Murphy and his law right?

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Isaiah 41:10

So what's the deal, were you traumatized by a laser in childhood or something?

More to the point, is your sister a minor, and are you her legal guardian?

If not, then give her your advice if she asks for it & she'll do with it what she will. Otherwise mind your own business.

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TEAM DNF

Too much TV and too many movies............................reality check ..... will happen on her first range trip

she is 1200 miles away, so i can't whack her behind the head.
code, i disagree. untrained individuals carrying guns are my business, especially when it's my own family/

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susie

My sister in law has a cabin in the mountains and recently noticed bear tracks around the place. Having never owned a gun before she went to a gun store that sold her a 9mm semi-auto and ammo. She keeps the never fired gun in it's box with the ammo close by. My advice to her falls on deaf ears. She lives 600 miles away, otherwise I would take he out for some much needed practice.

Back on topic....I have had lasers on all of my carry guns for the last 14 years. Never once have they failed, but I practice with them both on & off. I also have red dots on my AR rifles that are far superior to iron sights.

But then my cars all have automatic transmissions as well....back in the day people said they were just a fad as well and would fail down the road

I've often said that many people that are licensed to carry really do not understand the tremendous responsibility they are shouldering when they carry.

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Old paratrooper in NC

GUNS DON'T USE BATTERIES...

all better now... sorry for the interruption...

When did we get to the point when people want to ban or make illegal stuff they just don't happen to like? I liked it better when there were consequences for being stupid in America.

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- Change it back -

Oh, the irony.

Very poor assumption.

Not a great many, the VAST majority. I would say that less than 1% of those carrying a firearm for self-protection have fired that same gun in the last year, if ever.

I've heard the comment, "Well, it's just a carry gun so, it won't get fired much." If that doesn't scare you, it should.

Lasers are not the devil, but most who get them think like your sister, it will make them a better shot. Most of the time it makes people worse. Sometimes, a laser can be necessary. There are shooting situations that can't be done without them.

The phrase, "Just put the dot on the target and you'll hit it" is true, if you can keep the dot on the target while pressing the trigger.

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Freedom isn't free.

rast, exactly what shooting situation can't be done without a laser?
i don't believe there is such a thing.

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susie

There are two situations where the laser outshines regular sights; vision issues and barricades.

Vision
As we grow older, some of us have a hard time focusing on the sights. I know you're an advocate of not using sights, but some of us do. The laser works well for that because it moves the focus point to the target which is further away.

Barricades
A laser allows the shooter to shoot accurately while not having the muzzle in line with their vision. The shooter can be behind cover with maybe just a small hole or window. Then the gun can be maneuvered around the cover while placing the dot on the target. I don't think this is a common situation, but is is something you can do accurately with a laser that can't be done without it.

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Freedom isn't free.

One of the local gun shop owners/instructors in my area does the same thing. He annoys me every time I hear him do it.

He believes that if a handgun is too heavy, women won't carry it. He also preaches that you want a large caliber when facing an offender, and this results in women going out the door with sub compact plastic 9mm or .40 S&W handguns that I find very uncomfortable to shoot - and I'm not what you could call recoil sensitive.

The end result will be women who shoot the gun once or twice, then never practice with it again.

Most people who hate laser sights are reactionary old farts who have never even used one. I'm 63 and teach the pistol permit class required in the county I live in. You can qoute front sight as much as you like but if you can't see the front sight it won't do you much good. I can take a 60+ year old woman who has never fired a handgun before and teach her to keep all her shots on a standard 50 ft pistol target in about an hour using a laser as both a dry fire aid and sight. You don't need to shoot any better than that in a defensive situation. If you think going to the range every week and punching small groups on paper is making you a master of defensive pistol craft, god help you if you ever have to shoot someone. Defensive shooting is all about handling stress not firearms. Teach yourself to handle high stress situations and you have about 95% of defensive pistol craft mastered.Any old curmudgeon, like me, who has no qualms about shooting some *****hat threatening his life is probably going to come out on top. I have been carrying an airweight J frame with a red laser, a 938 Sig with a green laser, and a lightweight commander with a green laser. The green is definitely worth the extra money, and if it pulses, even better. I really believe it is a great advantage being able to keep the threat and the aiming point in focus at the same time. Try running an IDPA course wearing trifocals sometime.

And here is where you lose me.

She's an adult. It's her responsibility. Frankly, I'm amazed she even still continues to engage with you at all on the subject.

Should she practice? Yes. Do you have any right to pass judgment? No.

The various CCW-friendly states are not awash in people injured by stray rounds. Mostly, it's idiots shooting when they shouldn't have been, or criminals.

It's inevitably an elitist judgment. How much practice is "enough"? The answer is always "just slightly less than what I do".

I decided long ago that I thought some people were wrong, but passing judgment was inconsistent with my ideas about gun ownership and carry rights.

Why do you need to fire 100 rounds at a stretch to achieve "meaningful training"? Maybe she finds the 9mm Shield comfortable to shoot--I'm not a large guy, and shoot an awful lot of compact 9mm and .44 Magnum.

Maybe she'll shoot it and find out different.

Whatever, it's her problem. Unfortunately, if she ever does get around to shooting it, and finds it's not the gun for her, the last place she's going to turn is you.

i am not allowed to rant, here?
i'm trying to help her. no, i don't believe everyone should practice weekly, like i do.
i just think SOME practice is essential.

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susie

I can still see the front sights fairly well, but with each passing year, it gets a little tougher.

I also believe the ability to focus on the threat is important. This is why I put a CT on my Ruger LtWt Commander. I carry it in the pawn shop where I work at times. Any shot I might take there is probably going to be five or six yards max, and that is how the laser is sighted. I also figure that there is a fair chance I would have multiple targets, and the dot allows me to do a little scanning, without having to refocus on the front sight to make sure I'm still on target.

Yes, I practice, with and without the laser. Probably not as much as I should. I am about to put a CT on a 642.

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Georgia On My Mind

In the end, we're not talking bullseye shooting here with razor sharp focus on the front sight to get precision alignment - we're talking about putting the that fuzzy blob of a front sight on the spot you want to make bleed.

However, to get there, you do need to use what ever portion of your trifocals or progressive lenses you need to get the front sight in decent focus - at least long enough to develop the grip and muscle memory needed to train your hand to do what it needs to do to naturally get decent sight alignment without having to focus all that sharply on the front sight under field conditions.

I've found a nice bright dot on the front sight works well enough - and I flunked out of trifocals into progressive lenses.



I do practice weekly, and I do strive for small groups - but by that I mean keeping my controlled pairs in the 10 ring, my double taps inside the 8 ring, and by failure to stop drills inside the 8 ring and the head on a B-27 target - or in the bottle on an FBI target.

However, I also do spend some time on longer precision shots just to ensure I'm not letting the basics of tiger control and sight alignment slip.

The end result in a match is the ability to focus on the requirements of the stage while getting solid A zone hits and good times - even with poor visual accommodation.

I agree with you on the ability to handle stress, and the ability to create some degree of stress and time pressure is where practical pistol match shooting provides valuable practice.

A laser isn't a substitute for practice and it won;t do a thing to improve performance under stress.

Before converting to the gospel of laser, I found that fiber optic sights offer the advantage of remaining perfectly usable even if out of focus. Simply put the three fuzzy balls in a row on the target and squeeze the trigger. I think the best fighting sights for a handgun would be a set of fiber optics with tritium for night use. Unfortunately I haven't found a substitute for good trigger work. It is probably the single most important aspect of marksmanship whether pistol, rifle, or shotgun. I find that I shoot an S&W revolver double action fast better than any other trigger system I've tried. That DA pull always provides a surprise break, and tends to cancel any tendency to flinch. Unfortunately large caliber revolvers are so bulky and slow to reload I find myself going back to autoloaders of one type or another for concealed carry. When it comes to stress management I highly recommend the martial arts. Getting into the ring and fighting with a stranger is excellent for developing the nerve, as is most military training in the combat branches. And then there is that old adage, " Never pick a fight with an old man, if he's too old to fight he'll just kill you." Most of us didn't get old by being stupid.