House built in 1974 and copper plumbing starting to spring leaks. Thinking of having house re-plumbed using PEX tubing and an electric tankless water heater. Possibly Stiebel Tempra Plus 24 and a multiport manifold (with cutoffs 6/6).

Would appreciate any suggestions/recommendations and do's and don'ts, including good or bad brands

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TOMBECK

I've done a little with PEX, love the stuff. You need about $100 worth of tools to use it. (Clamps, cutters, clamp removers, etc) There are push on fittings to join copper pipe to PEX so the inserting PEX into an existing system is pretty easy. PEX tube comes in at least 3 colors so you can color code hot water lines. Great stuff, easy to work with. The only caution is take your time with the clamps, get them on straight.

I've used pex I prefer Sharkbite brand and Apollo
The Sharkbite couplers are super easy and they can be reused they are not cheap but in tight quarters theres none better

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All brands of Pex are interchangeable, there 2 types of bands: 1) bronze rings that are swaged on and 2) stainless steel bands that "ratchet" on they both work the same but use very different tools, and some local government require one or the other. There is a 3rd system for connecting Pex, I have only seen it on TV, you expand the Pex and slide a different size fitting in and it will shrink back on the fitting (in a number of hours.) This seems to be the best choice for hot water heat applications, but will work for all other plumbing too.

Fittings come in plastic or brass and are also completely interchangeable.

Tools: The crimping tool I use looks like a bolt cutter and will do 3/8, 1/2, & 3/4 sizes of Pex, but needs checked/adjusted when changing sizes! There are 1/4 and 1 inch Pex also and will require a separate tool each. The clamping tools for stainless bands are totally unrelated so they will be more money (Pick one system and stick to it!)

My son had his home in South East Texas re-plumbed with Pex. It took the pros longer to remove the old copper, that to install the new Pex! Total time was a day and a half. CPVC is cheaper but takes longer, New copper would be 3 or 4 times as expensive and 2 or 3 times more labor than Pex!

There is Shark Bite Brand of Pex and fittings, but don't confuse that with Shark Bite Type plumbing connectors! The cost difference is huge!!!

Pex can freeze! but it takes a little colder and a little longer because of the better insulating nature of the plastic. But when a line does freeze the tube can expand up to 3 times without breaking, but the fittings are subject to the limits of plastic or brass!

Coming off any hot water tank, including tankless, you need 18-24" of copper pipe on the inlet and outlet sides, it is a safety thing required in many states (and a good idea everywhere). Since you are redoing the copper and the new Tankless water heater is electric, start by placing the water heater in the center of your usage. For example, between the bathroom and kitchen or kitchen and laundry. That way you have less water line with cold water in it, that saves water and heating energy every time you wash your hands. It can be in a hall closet or under/inside a kitchen cabinet, just leave room for service, and if the tank requires a "overflow" line to a drain.

If the old lines are 3/4 size instead of 1/2 (copper size, not inches!), you can often use old plumbing holes to pull the Pex through like an electric wire. You won't have to rip out all the walls when you can do that. So an Electrician's "fish" is a tool that you can buy, rent, or borrow to help with that. If you are going to take longer than a day, you can plan ahead and rough in the Pex and disconnect the old copper in sections of the house, so you aren't completely without water for too long. I recently did a 200 year old home's plumbing, in just the basement. I took out over 400' of 4 kinds of pipe (of several sizes) and used 110' of 1/2" Pex. Between the new pipe, and removing all the unnecessary zigzags, the pressure to all the faucets was at least double.

Tip on doing the job. Buy lots of extra fittings and around double the ferrules (bronze rings). Then return the unopened parts when complete. This sure beats running for one last part-- two or three times! Lowe's and Home Depot both stock the common parts and tube, but you'll not get the best price!

Ivan

There are more than 3 systems.

For a small job just use shark bite fittings. If doing a whole house pick a system then buy a battery operated tool for that system. For multiple reasons, easier, faster, better crimps, the biggest reason the hand tools don't fit in tight places.

Wirsbo or Upinor is the best, IMHO. that is the one you expand then put on the fitting and it shrinks back on to the fitting. I recommend the Milwaukee expander tool you only need the expander head for the pipe size you are using


The cheapest way is the stainless cinch (Oetiker) rings, the same tool works for all the sizes. These are the only ones I've seen fail.

Then there are the ones that use the copper rings. ASTM1807

Then the ones with the stainless collars on the fittings. PUREFLOW

Also alumapex uses compression fittings.

This should help
Types of PEX Fittings and Connection Systems

If your doing the whole house invest in a battery power crimping tool
Ive replumbed some older mobile homes with the polybutylene tubing thats no longer made working under these mobile homes isn't fun I used pex with the crimping rings and brass fittings trying to crimp these rings in tight spaces is work i found a battery operated crimper works like a dream i no longer get bad crimps

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Copper is antimicrobial and your best choice for potable water piping; if you are on a private water supply I would go so far as to post that the use of copper is critical.

As for the type of water heater, mass is your friend and your best friend is a tank type heater-but keep it simple and avoid the hybrids which I still maintain are expensive throw aways; unless of course there are very generous rebates AND the installer will go on record as stating that the heat pump part will.....

The issue will on demand (tankless) water heaters is the same as with tankless coils in boilers, there is so small of a content of water in a relatively very hot environment that if one has hard water the minerals will crack/precipitate out and coat the coils to the point of reducing flow, sometimes even stopping flow.

The same problem plagues water heaters which are direct fired, those that have a burner-gas or oil, the area above the burner will cause the minerals to coat the bottom of the heater which after a while can begin to make a variety of really interesting sounds.

Of course if you are not going to remove and inspect/replace the anode rods then nothing is going to make any difference anyway so install whatever makes you feel the warmest/fuzziest.

Energy, like water, cannot really be 'wasted'-factoid: until space travel every drop of water that was ever in/on/above the planet WAS in/on/above the planet-one gigantic r/o system baby, by design not evolution.

I have under-slab hot leaks in 30 year old copper pipes and am going to abandon the below floor piping and re-route outside. I'm on a hard water well. We're using copper for everything.

A number of years ago, my copper was pinholeing..I was told it was a common thing for 70's copper systems...
I went back with CPVC, both hot and cold... Just an interesting tidbit... copper is sized bt ID, CPVC is sized OD... The installers replaced 1/2" copper with 1/2" CPVC... RESULT... Getting hot water from the utility room to the master bathn in the other end of the house takes a frustrating amount of time..I always use the bath next to the utility room so it dosn't matter to me.. It' the wife that get's irritated sometimes....
JIM...............

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SWCA # L-1911

Just moved from a house built in 1926 and had been replumbed with Pex. We had zero problems with it. The house we moved to is a 60s built, well built, house with copper plumbing. one of the first things I noticed is how noisy copper is. In the old house you never noticed the water running while the washing machine was running or the outside faucet was on. In the new house I can hear any trickle of water going on to any faucet.

know nothing about PEX, but get a tankless water heater. Best upgrade I have made in 35 yrs at the same house.

Charlie

It is my understanding that gas fired tankless is great, but electric tankless is very lacking as can't furnish hot water fast enough for even medium jobs, and the cost to operate is considerably more than gas.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

If anyone is thinking about going tankless I would advise that you opt for an old fashioned tank electric water heater-50 or so gallon if you have a family-have the installer raise the unit as high as possible above the pan-floor, reinstall the rods using whatever product the maker recommends for sealing the threads (this will allow the next person to easily remove the rods for service) THEN pipe the heater using dielectrics, a heat trap, potable water expansion tank, and vacuum breaker, plus have the silly plastic drain valve replaced with a full port US/Italian ball valve. If the kid can't sweat tube then spec pro press rather than plastic and be certain that a ground is verified.

You'll spend about a third of the cost of a tankless-the appliance will last about three times longer than a tankless and in the end the advantage will be with the tank heater, by a significant amount.

This of course will allow you to purchase and consume much beer while thoroughly researching the topic-I am confident that in the end you will discover that all that beer-plus some, was in fact, free.

I do my own plumbing and up until recent times I never used PEX - always Copper & Sweat Fittings. About 6 years ago we re-modeled our kitchen, doubled the size of it and things were so tight in the ceiling above I decided it was time to try the PEX as it is much easier to manipulate through tight spots, beams, etc. It worked just fine! No leaks, easy to route around electrical work, wooden support beams etc.

When ever I have to repair a leaky joint (original house is almost 60 years old) I do still use the Copper as it's just easier than to start introducing PEX into a really tight spot of existing Copper. I also still have a huge supply of Copper pipe, fittings and parts so I will use them up. When they are gone, PEX will be the stuff I use.

Just hope they don't discover the PEX is a carcinogen in the years to come!

We had our house re-plumbed. We had the "good" copper" but it still pi holed. They used CVPC. Most all new construction here is CVPC.

A few years ago there was a big lawsuit on the Pex fittings which failed. Destroyed peoples homes. The Shark Bites where not even around then, I have seen and messed with them and would not use them as who knows what time will tell on those, Maybe the fittings have been improved/corrected. (the bands corroded)?? Will the "teeth" in Shark Bites hold up???

That said, it is cheaper, easier so what can go wrong?

The two guys who plumbed my house did so in a day and 1/2 patched all drywall and never could tell they where here. 20 foot sections of CVPC through the attic and some drops through the walls. Very few glued connections, pressure test and done.

PEX Information

Failures - PEX Plumbing Failures

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Still Running Against the Wind

The OP ask about a 6 position manifold. 2 winters ago, using a 6 position manifold, I re-plumbed a farm house with 1 bath room and kitchen, I still needed to add 2 more positions to the cold side. Remember, the hot water system will use one and you need at least one for outside hose bibs.

My daughter's house started as a small vacation home in the Jersey Pine Barrens about 15 years ago. The owner had a business that took off and she had more money than common sense. She added on and remodeled every 12 to 18 months. It is now a 4500 sq.ft., 4 BR rambling spread. At some point they converted to Pex with tankless Hot Water Heat in 2 furnaces and about 1/3 in floor heating. The tankless heaters are tucked away in a corner of the basement instead of centered in the system! The second floor bathroom takes over 5 minutes to get hot water! The kitchen sink and guest bath take over 3 minutes each. The manifold is a 30 pair plastic affair set up for 3/8" lines (JUNK) I believe the rest of the equipment is high quality, but the installers either didn't know what they were doing or most probably she didn't want the unfinished basement to look like a basement! Fortunately, they are on a well so the cost of wasted water isn't an issue!

If you are having a contractor do the work, there will need to be a permit. Tell the contractor you want to see the mechanical plans for the new plumbing. (Inspectors do not require contractors to know what they are doing, only to be safe!)

Ivan

Just one small addition - pex seems to expand when hot water is run through the line and if it secured to the wall too snugly it will make some noise.

This spring we had the basement bathroom redone, our contractor took a look at our plumbing and said it was a flood wait to happen. there were more joints, turns and bends. so we had all the water lines replaced with pex it took longer to remove the copper, a whole day, a half day to reinstall the pex. he used a expander to join the lines and at the sinks and toilet he placed a brass fitting to connect the wire feed hoses.

we have been using a gas tankless hot water heater for about 8 years or so. It is placed at a mid way point so water flow is good. It gest cleaned yearly by pumping white vinegar threw the heat coil to remove any minerals, it takes about a hour. saw a decrease in the gas bill, it will slowly pay for it's self.

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Carpriver.

In my home we do not have a Hot Water Tank in the conventional sense as it does not make hot water. There are no gas connections, no electrical connections and what it is, is simply a 100 gallon hot water thermos bottle. The water is heated from the natural gas fired Boiler and the Storage tank only keeps it from getting cold through insulation. We have used this system for 22 years now and it is really great - we never run out of hot water. As soon as any of the hot water is used, the Boiler starts making more to replace it. It is so efficient that about 8 years ago during Hurricane Irene (did not have a Generator back then) when the power was out for a week, we nursed the hot water and it actually stayed hot for 4 days before we had to take cold showers. After that I got off my butt and got a Generac!

The original storage tank did go bad about a year ago (21 years old) and the dry thermostat tube started leaking internally. I called the Company to find out if there was anything I could do, they looked up my model and serial number and told me there was actually a recall on that unit years ago due to a faulty internal weld. They sent a brand new tank over to one of their distributors locally and I picked it up free of charge! The tanks price was #2,700.00 retail but cost me zero How's that for an extended warranty?

I know they now have tankless water heaters and have a friend who just installed one about 2 years ago. He swears by it but was required to install a whole house water filtration system. So far he likes it very much. He says it's efficient and it does take up very little space. The longevity is still an open book however.

PEX seems like the standard now days and Copper does have draw-backs. Just hope the PEX doesn't disappoint all of us in the years to come!

chief, do you see your type of water heater at this site?

HTP - Indirect Water Heating

In my first house, I had a tankless gas fired w/h. We were on a well and the tankless would only get the water up to about 110 degrees. I installed a small 30 gallon electric tank water heater to feed the tankless and disconnected one of the elements and turned the thermostat as low as it would go. Then I installed one of those heat recovery systems on the a/c and circulating through the tank. This preheated the water using very little electricity and allowed the tankless to put out up to 150 degree water for the dishwasher and washing machine. I think tankless water heaters are great and we saved a ton on our electric bill. But I agree if you go tankless, go gas.

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USS Brewton FF1086
SWCA#3597

I have installed a few of the $500 variety tankless and owners
we're not happy. These were 220v/ 30amp and require dual
220 circuts to run. They ended up going back to conventional
electric tanks. There are models that will do the job but they
cost much more and run on 400amp service. The ones that run
on natural gas are cheaper to operate but maintenance on the
electric makes up for it. Personally I prefer conventional electric
tank. Depending on your water supply they usually average
8-10yrs and at $400 for a 50gal of dependable service that's
hard to beat.

The liability exposure associated with these little wonders is astounding especially on the service side for the non installing contractor-the exposure for the gas/propane units to me is incomprehensible.

To even begin to provide some protection for yourself you would have to literally re install the unit verifying all oem recommendations were followed, including the usually required water quality testing-no customer would pay for this and no customer would pay for the at least yearly required service.

Can't explain the popularity of these things, then again I can't understand why anyone would want to sleep either under/or in the same room that has an evaporator coil in it. Yes I know that a window unit is kinda-sorta the same as a mini in this regard but at least with a window job you can take it out and properly/thoroughly clean it-quite unlike a mini.

water coolers and ice machines anyone?-its amazing what I have seen inside these things-scary really.

Every wonder just why that Keurig coffee coming out of that water bottle via the pump is so tasty??

Had to go to training on this product, it was fascinating:

Antimicrobial Copper Suppliers | CuVerro