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09-16-2017, 02:35 PM
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When did the Gun Biz go from making quality to just making
I been around guns since the early '60's. Seemed like for a long time the "big" manufacturers took pride in turning out good, serviceable firearms (SW Model 10's, Remington BDL's) that pleased the eye and were a source of pride for the owner. Once in awhile they'd make a dog but nobody would buy one and they went away (Remember the "electronic ignition" rifles about 25 years ago?). Nowadays every company is trying to put out a 17 shot plastic and conduit "New" gun for $38.75. I musta been born into a different world, one where we'd fix something if it broke instead of trashing it and getting another. And don't get me started about electronics. Joe
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09-16-2017, 05:59 PM
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My thinking is there have always been sorry guns and knives at cheap prices and good guns and knives at high prices. Good stuff is still being made but it is expensive. I well remember when S&W went to 4 screw and then 3 screw and many people said the new guns were junk. Now many people think they are good guns and the MIM guns are junk. Larry
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09-16-2017, 06:15 PM
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I like to think everyone has been turning out junk since day one. You just didn't hear about it as much before the internet.
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09-16-2017, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray1970
I like to think everyone has been turning out junk since day one. You just didn't hear about it as much before the internet.
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And gun sales have soared.
In the past 30 years US population has increased around 20%. Gun manufacturing has risen about 300%. Then like you say give everyone a world wide platform to gripe...
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09-16-2017, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil
And gun sales have soared.
In the past 30 years US population has increased around 20%. Gun manufacturing has risen about 300%. Then like you say give everyone a world wide platform to gripe...
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Exactly. You can even find negative comments and problems with the Glock platform if you search hard enough.
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09-16-2017, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil
And gun sales have soared.
In the past 30 years US population has increased around 20%. Gun manufacturing has risen about 300%. Then like you say give everyone a world wide platform to gripe...
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^^^This for sure.
Now add the advances in manufacturing and design that allow you to build simple and reliable semis and you get where we are today.
I can think of one example to show this is nothing new. The early Thompson sub-machinegun is admired for its deep bluing and wood stocks. It was largely replaced by the Grease Gun, a masterpiece of minimalist engineering.
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09-16-2017, 07:29 PM
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We became a "disposable society" following WW II. As stated the Thompson vs Grease gun was the beginning of the end of quality and pride in craftsmanship. Prior to this when a hammer for instance, was purchased it was the only hammer a man would ever own and it was to be passed down at least 2 more generations. I have my wife's grandfathers half hatchet that was used on the farm, then it was passed to her father as a young man and he used it extensively camping and timber work. At his passing I have used it for over 30 years and look at passing it to my grandsons. It is still an excellent tool and in great condition. Now if you need a hatchet you end up at one of the big box stores and the only thing that can be found are China imports, cast made of recycled scrap metal. To be used a few times and left to rust in a corner and be sold for a buck at a yard sale. The same goes for everything from guns to cookware, sad to say. There are exceptions if you are willing to go the extra mile.
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09-16-2017, 07:52 PM
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The current electronic age of expedient planned obsolescence has been applied to the firearm business model. Couple that with cheap Chinese clones and similar and folks who ONLY buy something based on price, and you have makers responding to what the consumer wants. Now, what was standard, all seem to come from a company's custom shop or performance center where getting it done right the first time now costs you more.
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09-16-2017, 07:56 PM
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Folks forget that firearms manufacturing followed the same arc as other commodities during the industrial revolution.
Manufacturing moved from hand built everything to interchangeable parts, assembly lines and more recently Plastics, CNC, less expensive and faster production systems.
The firearms industry actually contributed to those industrial changes.
Remember that Sam Colt's contribution was in modernizing manufacturing.
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09-16-2017, 09:13 PM
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If you sit down and think about it, most of us older guys are still buying a gun here or there. But we don't buy new junk, we seek out and purchase the items we feel are quality. Every few months I review my meager collection of worthy guns, looking for a dog to sell off. Been doing that for decades now. Almost all the bad ones are long gone. What's left are mostly prewar Winchesters, Smith and Wessons that extend into the early post war. To my detriment, I've accumulated a few recent examples, mostly the ultra light models. Not good shooters or well build that will last forever, but light guns that are easy to carry. And if I shoot them, they're dirty and don't clean up like the old standbys.
Guns were examples of American quality. No more. OK, and I even have a few foreign guns. Not Chinese junk, but SIGs from Switzerland, not Germany.
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09-16-2017, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pharmer
I been around guns since the early '60's. Seemed like for a long time the "big" manufacturers took pride in turning out good, serviceable firearms (SW Model 10's, Remington BDL's) that pleased the eye and were a source of pride for the owner. Once in awhile they'd make a dog but nobody would buy one and they went away (Remember the "electronic ignition" rifles about 25 years ago?). Nowadays every company is trying to put out a 17 shot plastic and conduit "New" gun for $38.75. I musta been born into a different world, one where we'd fix something if it broke instead of trashing it and getting another. And don't get me started about electronics. Joe
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When we collectively stopped paying for quality and decided that usually good enough Glock clones is good enough for our money.
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09-16-2017, 10:03 PM
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When they realized how profitable it can be.
Just look at Harley Davidson, and Nike to name just a few.
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09-16-2017, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pharmer
I been around guns since the early '60's. Seemed like for a long time the "big" manufacturers took pride in turning out good, serviceable firearms (SW Model 10's, Remington BDL's) that pleased the eye and were a source of pride for the owner. Once in awhile they'd make a dog but nobody would buy one and they went away (Remember the "electronic ignition" rifles about 25 years ago?). Nowadays every company is trying to put out a 17 shot plastic and conduit "New" gun for $38.75. I musta been born into a different world, one where we'd fix something if it broke instead of trashing it and getting another. And don't get me started about electronics. Joe
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Not all Company's quality went down. Not that I am a Ruger fan (don't own a one), but their guns have actually increased in quality in my opinion.
Colt is operating with 6 ball and chains around their necks, but the few guns they manage to turn out are excellent quality and from what I've seen over the last few years, their QC is better than ever!
Of course Ed Brown, Les Behr, Wilson Combat and some of the other boutique makers also produce very high end quality - but for the most part that's normal for them.
Smith & Wesson has gone down the preverbal toilet as far as quality is concerned and Browning, while still nice is not the same as when Browning was Browning. Remington, Marlin, Winchester have all taken the downward slide too I'm afraid.
It's not just guns........ go buy furniture, clothing, luggage, electronics, tools (with a few exceptions) all gone down hill.
It's all about $$$$$$$$$. Company's want as much profit as they can get and don't want to produce heirloom goods anymore. they want repeat business!
Actually one exception to this (IMO) is the American Automotive Industry. I think they are making American cars better than ever now. Safer, better QC, better reliability, better paint, better handling, and much much more longevity!
Unfortunately, the younger people getting into our hobby don't really know what true quality is as far as guns are concerned because it's been a long time since its been around in abundance. They think a plastic Glock or Sig is great quality. NOT saying they aren't good reliable working guns, but not many here (even owners of them) can truly say they are high quality and beautiful guns made with pride - as the Smiths use to be. Again, they are reliable, safe and functional for their purposes, but NOT pass-down heirloom quality IMO.
Welcome to the 21st Century!
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09-16-2017, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 30-30remchester
We became a "disposable society" following WW II. As stated the Thompson vs Grease gun was the beginning of the end of quality and pride in craftsmanship. Prior to this when a hammer for instance, was purchased it was the only hammer a man would ever own and it was to be passed down at least 2 more generations. I have my wife's grandfathers half hatchet that was used on the farm, then it was passed to her father as a young man and he used it extensively camping and timber work. At his passing I have used it for over 30 years and look at passing it to my grandsons. It is still an excellent tool and in great condition. Now if you need a hatchet you end up at one of the big box stores and the only thing that can be found are China imports, cast made of recycled scrap metal. To be used a few times and left to rust in a corner and be sold for a buck at a yard sale. The same goes for everything from guns to cookware, sad to say. There are exceptions if you are willing to go the extra mile.
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Ain't that the truth. I still have an ax that my great grandfather used. Been through several handles, of course, and had to replace the head once or twice, but it still cuts as good as it ever did. They just don't make stuff like they used to.
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09-16-2017, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 30-30remchester
... Now if you need a hatchet you end up at one of the big box stores and the only thing that can be found are China imports, cast made of recycled scrap metal. To be used a few times and left to rust in a corner and be sold for a buck at a yard sale. ...
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Be careful about those Made in China tools you buy these days. A friend in the home remodeling business had one that shattered (he said "exploded") when he was driving a nail with it. He said he was darned lucky a fragment(s) did not hit him in the eye(s). I have been fortunate to find about a half dozen old American-made hammers at yard sales, usually for 50 cents to a couple of bucks each. So I am set for life in the hammer department.
Regarding S&W. I would bet that when they went from the HE 1 (Triple Lock) to the HE 2 (when was that, 1916?), a lot of folks screamed that the company had betrayed them, dumped craftsmanship for a quick buck, etc. But today, we cherish the revolvers they made in the 20s, 30s, ... well, just name your favorite decade. Yet this wailing and hand wringing goes on and on to this day. You have to realize, S&W has to keep up with modern manufacturing techniques, materials, and market conditions, not to mention the constantly changing whims of our political leaders. I hate to be the one to point this out, but if S&W reverted to only making Triple Lock-class handguns today, they would be out of business before the end of the year.
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09-16-2017, 10:27 PM
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mid 1960's
I believe it was a gradual downward spiral. BUT the manufacturers tend to cater to consumer demands. How many posts do you see asking for cheap/inexpensive what evers? You want it cheap and plastic, they will be happy to oblige. If we stood our ground on quality, didn't cave in and buy IT, they would stop making IT. YES it would cost more. Many people get by just fine with lower cost stuff. TEHO.
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09-16-2017, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Model520Fan
Ain't that the truth. I still have an ax that my great grandfather used. Been through several handles, of course, and had to replace the head once or twice, but it still cuts as good as it ever did. They just don't make stuff like they used to.
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Go to your room, young man. And wipe that possum grin off your face
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09-16-2017, 10:46 PM
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Forgot to mention this, but one other major difference is that back in the day, most manufacturing company's were owned by people who were "into" the product they were producing and really believed in it.
Today, many Manufacturing Company's are owned and operated by pencil pushing investors that don't really give a hoot about the actual product they make. All they want is to capitalize on the Co's. past history and reputation and make as much money as fast as they can!
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09-16-2017, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shouldazagged
Go to your room, young man. And wipe that possum grin off your face
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Wasn't much of a post, but a cute signature.
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09-16-2017, 11:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chief38
Forgot to mention this, but one other major difference is that back in the day, most manufacturing company's were owned by people who were "into" the product they were producing and really believed in it.
Today, many Manufacturing Company's are owned and operated by pencil pushing investors that don't really give a hoot about the actual product they make. All they want is to capitalize on the Co's. past history and reputation and make as much money as fast as they can!
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A business only stays in business by making a profit. When US companies have to compete with cheap foreign labor, costs have to be cut in every conceivable manner. Newer methods and materials is one way, but not the only one. And those old time owners were trying to make it better,faster,cheaper even back in the day.
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09-16-2017, 11:22 PM
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i have to agree that ruger is making solid products
they are sturdy.
of course, you have to spend time n money to fix the trigger. but, once you do that, you have a good gun.
ruger guns aren't pretty, but they work.
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09-16-2017, 11:30 PM
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I remember my late wife's mother, a feisty little woman with a permanent twinkle, except for one area of consideration:
She believed nothing had been any damn good since 1945.
She was wrong, of course, but that was her conviction.
I guess we all develop some of that as we get old--I certainly see a bit of it in myself as I rapidly sneak up on eighty.
I just remind myself that things aren't quite that simple, and that change isn't always a bad thing.
Sure, the world has left me and my preferences behind in a lot of areas--manners, culture, durability of goods, and others.
'Twas ever thus. My latest unborn great-granddaughter will grumble in her turn.
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09-16-2017, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Model520Fan
Wasn't much of a post, but a cute signature.
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Glad you liked at least part of it.
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09-17-2017, 12:26 AM
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As demand increases supply expands. As supple expands prices drop. As prices drop the makers cheapen their products to maintain profitability.
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09-17-2017, 12:31 AM
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It all started in about 1965.........
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09-17-2017, 12:45 AM
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It goes to the people in charge, and their motives and expectations regarding their product. Bill Ruger comes to mind. I don't know how many times I read of him recalling guns because he wasn't pleased with them. I think about large manufacturers that have bought out other gun makers with a poor result in overall quality. Remington's purchase of Marlin is a sad recollection for me. The sad thing is, I suspect, that if the integrity and pride of product would have prevailed, even with our S&W, there would have been a loyal group ready to purchase good products that were backed by good service, performed by well trained staff. But greed seems to have one the day for now. I predict that old production guns, of all kinds, will soon be out of the reach (or comfort level) of many of us. I've got some I am going to keep a little longer, but I don;t see a lot of additions any time soon. JM2CW. Peace, Flapjack.
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09-17-2017, 02:14 AM
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On the radio Friday there was an interview with a local woman & her story about becoming a woman's clothing designer & manufacturer. She explained how she took her ideas to investors & how they loved her stuff & told her she had to do it for so & so price. She told them that she couldn't do it in America for that price & then stated she made some phones calls & got everything started implying contracting foreign companies. It's all about price/profit like earlier posts stated.
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09-17-2017, 02:55 AM
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I've got nothing at all against capitalism and was in business myself for many years. I too was interested in profit (as that is the impetus for all successful businessmen) but the highest quality and value for customers hard earned money were top priorities to me because they went hand in hand in building the business itself.
I was known for my quality and reliability - not my price. If you are going to be in business I believe you should strive for #1 in any field you are in.
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09-17-2017, 07:13 AM
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Good Old Days
And remember the good old gun shops ? I have fond memories of hanging out in Midaughs Gun Shop in my home town. Fred wore the old stained bib, and the aroma of Hoppe's and cigar smoke filled the air. Always the same group of "oldsters" hanging out at the card table in the corner discussing, what we all know now, were fine handguns, rifles, and shotguns; things change my friends; we grow older, technology moves forward, and all we have are cherished recollections of the "good ol" days. Fred Midaugh and his gun shop are no longer with us, nor are most of those fellas that coffeed at Freds place. Well, my eyes are welling up, so I'll sign of. But any of you guys over age 60 know where I'm going with this.
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09-17-2017, 08:06 AM
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The real culprit here . I use to work for a company called A&P mi was a journeyman meat cutter ,not butcher as I was when I started with them but they turned me into a professional and taught me to take pride in my work and how I served my customers .Their motto was we may not be the cheapest but we will have the very best meats,produce,ect and we will give superior customer service and that company grew and grew .Then they went public and all of a sudden the CEO had to answer to stock holders who o ly want to know one thing ( how much mo ey did you make me and when will I get my check ) so yes the downward spiral begin in the name of profit chasing those investors .Oh I know you are thinking those greedy billionaires but no you would be wrong as truthfully the investors they are chasing are at the end of the day people who are p,anning on retiring or are retired and are looking for the best returns sometimes unobtainable returns on their meager but hard earned investment .People like me or possibly some of you who for the most part will say sell that and buy this for another .5 percent or even say close the plant and move to Mexico as long as I get mine .So let's put the blame where it actually goes right squarely on our scociety where we all mostly have the attitude of( ( as long as I get mine I don't care about yours) .Yea I know there are exceptions but they are in the minority ,be honest would you take a cut in pay or in you retirement or whatever your income is so some kid could buy a really nice American made firearm he could pass down for generations.Here is what happened and it's happening right before our eyes as we speak.The head bosses said look guys we have to make cuts now do y'all want to vote to take a cut in pay or we can just lower the starting rates for younger guys and new hires going forward .Well as most of the A&P employees were 10 years plus with the company they voted to stick it to the younger guys and new hires going forward so short sighted was their decision as these younger guys in 15 years stuck it back by voteing a huge increase in the cost of retires bennifits rather than take a cut in pay lol it was so funny to hear those old retired guys trying to say how it wasn't right it just wasn't right these you g guys are all out for their selves and the almighty dollar .That happened I was there well actually I wasn't because the day they cut my pay I walked out but my friends stayed ,I was fortunate enough to get into the petroleum industry my friends who stayed rode on a very stressfull downhill spiral with cuts layoffs store closeings and yes retirement bennifits cut and cut all in the name of higher returns to attract more investors .Who did it American society and the Im getting mine attitude we have been sold but only because we wanted to be sold on it as that was the easy road.
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09-17-2017, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by culito
It all started in about 1965.........
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When the average Joe had some disposable income.... Cheap disposable products to net a smaller profit from a larger group of consumers.
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09-17-2017, 09:08 AM
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This again? Yes technically marches on. I suggest to those that don't like it they can go do things the old fashioned way. No cars, no electricity, back when "really quality" was made!
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09-17-2017, 09:18 AM
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Reasons why I own guns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chief38
good reliable working guns, Again, they are reliable, safe and functional for their purposes, :
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Not interested in passing down my anything. If after my death people want to fight over my guns or dirty undies that's their problem. Sell them, melt them, toss them away..... whatever. I bought them for my needs not some future whomevers needs.
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09-17-2017, 09:22 AM
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About the same time the Walmart's and Home Depot's started expanding all over America and people abandoned their local grocers and hardware stores for cheaper prices.
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09-17-2017, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by susieqz
i have to agree that ruger is making solid products
they are sturdy.
of course, you have to spend time n money to fix the trigger. but, once you do that, you have a good gun.
ruger guns aren't pretty, but they work.
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I think my 4" Security Six is a very handsome gun.
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09-17-2017, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ladder13
About the same time the Walmart's and Home Depot's started expanding all over America and people abandoned their local grocers and hardware stores for cheaper prices.
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They were able to expand because folks were, and are, still concerned with saving money. The whole Home Depot business model of regular folks fixing and working on their homes didn't exist in urban environments back in the day. You hired a painter, plumber, carpenter or whatever skill to come fix or create something at your home. A lot of those craft skills have been lost or downgraded so only new immigrants see any value in performing them for the pay offered.
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09-17-2017, 11:43 AM
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I don't know about others, but I would rather have a few great guns than a safe full of cheap - just passable ones.
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09-17-2017, 12:25 PM
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Absolutely and I am planning on starting that very soon. It will mean replacing some, eliminating others entirely (and all the related stuff like reloading gear), but I'm becoming more of a minimalist as I age
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09-18-2017, 12:58 AM
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Prior to Obama's 1st election gun control rumors spread like wildfire. Gun manufacturers ramped up their production lines. Every crisis or shooting and they ramped up their production lines. Life for the gun manufacturers was good. Product was flowing out the doors and their bottom line looking great. Somewhere along the the line quality control took a backseat to getting as much stuff out the door as fast as possible. As a result quality control fell to the consumer who if something was wrong the firearm went back to the manufacturer. Kinda like a risk management program. If we turn out 500,000 units and cut back on quality control and 1000 units come back for repair or replacement we are still getting a good return for our money. Now because we have a pro gun President gun manufacturers are doing layoffs, possible cutting back on hours worked. Now their bottom line isn't looking as good as it used to. Will we see quality control return so as not to have the consumer return a revolver for a canted barrel, sight problems or even no rifling in the barrel of a rifle?. Only time will tell. Frank
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09-18-2017, 02:55 PM
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Sounds like the "Good Old Days" syndrome-"Back when they really made them.." People think Winchester started to go downhill in 1964-pre-64, anyone, we talk about 5 screws and pre-war S&Ws and Colts, then there were the store brand and mail order guns of the late 19th and early 20th Centuries-would anyone put Iver Johnson and Harrington and Richardson in the same category as Colt and S&W ? Then there are the controversies over MIM parts vs. machined, Ruger pioneered investment casting yet after 60+ years of Ruger, that still doesn't seem "right".
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09-18-2017, 03:28 PM
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Old Farts will point to pre/ post 1964 Winchester as the watershed turning point. And there is more than a grain of truth there . It was a very high profile move by a top level Gun Mfg with a reputation for quality products to blatently place cost cutting above all other factors . They were a major player in the firearms industry, and their very high profile move help to set the tone for the whole industry.
But as discussed above the overall price vs quality vs production cost thing has been going on since the start of the industrial revolution . In the long term big picture this has mostly been good, but there is a point of taking things too far, but no agreement where that point lays . Lots of products we now take for granted either wouldn't have existed, or were prohibabtly expensive .
Using non-firearms example , electric guitars . Adjusted for inflation, back then there were the equivalent of couple thousand $ . Today a wide variety of perfectly functional ones are under $200, with certain models approaching $99 on sale from major retailers . And for $400 range, some pretty decent electrics ( or acoustics).
Yeah , conisours and collectors will turn up their noses , but for youth or working class people looking to get started the difference between couple hundred vs couple thousand makes the difference between entry or not.
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