The torch and pitchfork crowd here has changed my way of thinking.

I believe the world would be a much better place if Bill Jordan had been fired from the Border Patrol in 1956 and prosecuted for involuntary manslaughter for playing quick draw with the very first Combat Magnum and killing his boss, John A. Rector. A stretch in the pen, followed by a career bagging groceries and an ignoble death in a flophouse would be much better than long service as a lawman and a successful stint as a gunwriter and ambassador for the shooting sports! After all, he MEANT to pull the trigger.

Thanks, fellas!

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

I know you're exaggerating to make a point, but I didn't say that, did I? I don't wish the guy any physical harm at all.

Unfortunate, yes. Wonder how "unfortunate" it would be if the other guy had been killed?

No, you don't. That's the point. And before I go on, review the other thread where I rip on Special Agent Clownshoes relentlessly, because he deserves it.

Go ahead and check the rulebooks for--oh, every action pistol sport ever. In each one that felt compelled to document the "dropped gun" procedure, you'll find that the standard is always "shooter steps back, RSO picks up the gun".

Why? Because dropping a gun and picking it up is dangerous, and people are prone to ****ing it up. That means you, me, and everyone else. The Booger Hook Chuckle and Holy Prayer of the Four Rules are the talismans we use to convince ourselves that it can't happen to us. Literally, the absolute worst, most disgustingly dangerous and reckless gun handling I've ever seen has come from "instructors" and Safety Sallies, because they think It Can't Happen To Them.

Christ, I saw a buffoon "demonstrate" the one-handed slide rack via belt--with a loaded, live pistol. In the 35 seconds it took this rube to get a round in the chamber, I beat feet. This same buffoon teaches some hopped-up IDPA safety course.

Everyone knows the standard for dropping a gun, round, magazine, what have you, ON THE RANGE. Yep, ya leave it there 'til the range is declared 'safe.'

What was the S/A supposed to do? Leave his gun lying on the dance floor? He surely did make a realllllllllly bad mistake...one that has truly complicated his life with criminal charges pending adjudication. AND LEFT A BYSTANDER INJURED, YES.

Though the victim doesn't want him fired and has no plans to sue, some of you folks want him jailed, fired, sued, and Lord knows what else.

I posted herein that years ago my M60 fell out of my upside down shoulder holster whilst I was in Peirce Street Annex in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida. My gun went cartwheeling across the floor before tumbling down a couple steps and coming to rest under a table. What was I supposed to do...leave it there?

I DID retrieve it...rather swiftly, in fact. Didn't fire it whilst doing so. Did not make a MISTAKE.

Goodness, so many folks here want to make an 'example' out of this S/A. He was DANCING and made a terrible error!!!

I hope it never happens again...to anyone...though it surely will. Cannot wait to see what some of you want to see as punishment for one who is NOT a government employee.

Be safe.

It'll be pled to a misdemeanor.
Disturbing his piece.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I had a post in the early thread. I did not make any demands that the agent be fired and his life forever ruined, nor do I condemn the entire FBI for one individual's mistake. That is simply absurd.

I just said that he should be treated the same under the law as any other honest citizen in a similar situation. I don't think that is unfair.

If this agent is being treated too harshly under the law for an unintentional mistake, granted with a serious result, perhaps we need to rethink this zero-tolerance self-righteous society, and the harshness of laws that has resulted. I wonder how many people would like to be judged to the same level of perfection they expect from everyone else.

I wasn't there, but apparently the victim isn't holding a grudge.

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Common sense isn't so common.

Here ... lemme show you where the car is parked in relation to the law of the land upon which he stood, courtesy of CaptB

next issue he may face is possession while intoxicated.
Given his conduct and the venue in which he conducted ... probability favors this getting tacked on later.

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it just needs more voltage

His day in Denver Jail, in a suit he wore, is not DOC (department of corrections) custody. That was a day in jail. DOC is for convicts.

Yes, I will take the $100 bet. Because there is no way they are going to send him to prison.

My point remains that he has and will continue to get special treatment. If that was John q public, he would have been arrested and booked that night. Not two weeks later, in a suit and a negotiated date and time.

"playing quick draw with his very first Combat Magnum"

Way back in the mid 70's, we were all getting the new model 66s.

A trooper that I knew back then was demonstrating his quick draw for a few gals in the radio room.

OOPS, he let one go, right into a brand-new radio console.

Wasn't much said about it, he just faded away without any fanfare.



* I truly hate an innocent party caught a bullet in this clausal goat roping.
And I hope this ex-agent finds a suitable career that'll fit his pistol a little better.

.

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

DOC will give him credit for that day, because he was in custody and couldn't leave, thus making a sentence of "time served" possible . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Life lessons are best learned at a young age. They become SO MUCH more expensive when older.

JMO LEOSA is most useful to retired officers because it is a piece of Federal legislation providing a ready avenue to federal courts to prevent overreaching State officials from creatively interpreting laws in an overly restrictive fashion. As they are able to do with the rest of the citizenry. (Better stop here before we cross the politics threshold.)

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Certified Curmudgeon

I what to know what his BAC was. He deserves NO special treatment! Do stupid things, win stupid prizes.

Seems to be the trend for what was once one of the most respected agencies.

Yes it is,
as a state firearms instructor, I've qualified many retired officers for their annual re-qualifications.


.

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

The dress code has changed too.

His blood alcohol level isn’t relevant to the crime with which he is currently charged. I understand it could lead to an additional minor charge, which someone above said is classified as a misdemeanor.

I’m more interested in knowing if he consented to having his blood drawn, or if they had to wake up a judge at 2:00 a.m. to get a warrant.

Regardless, it certainly doesn’t appear that he is receiving any special treatment.

LEOSA was in response to the attacks of the world trade center. Oddly I don't think LEO, or RLEO can carry on a commercial flight while not engaged in official duty armed.

It only covers concealed carry, and I open carry. For my backup I find the five year renewal of a permit that is open to all law abiding citizens more palatable.

I also find that LEOSA is an attack on the right of the people to keep, and bear arms. It was supported by an anti gun senator, and that should tell ya a lot. It is gun control, it limits carry in those states that make carry difficult to ONLY LEO, and RLEO exactly who(no offense) the threat the second amendment was put in place for. In Colonial America the British Army was the police.

I appreciate the value of LEOSA to the officers that make use of it. But if a state does not allow me to carry as a citizen I will not go there. For me personally I will never use it, it goes against my support of the 2A.

My last words on LEOSA it is not relevant to this case IMO.

I think one thing we can all be pretty sure of is this - he’s NOT going to actually go to prison. I think that’s a given, and even though I don’t think he needs to keep his gun-toting FBI job, I wouldn’t want to see him sent to prison. We already send way too many people to prison in cases where it serves no purpose. No reason to send another one.

I personally am glad they are charging this goofball with second-degree assault. And I really don't hope that he spends lots of time in the crossbar hotel, but I personally don't want this person carrying a firearm around in public. If he is dumb (or drunk and dumb) enough to throw his booger hook inside the trigger guard when picking the weapon up, he doesn't need to be carrying a firearm. My Dad taught me to not put a finger on the trigger until you are ready to fire the weapon and picking up a gun isn't a time to be putting a finger inside the trigger guard.

This guy might not have a job in law enforcement after this episode, but it shouldn't "ruin his life". He's young enough to learn another profession or go into something else relating to law enforcement that doesn't require him to handle guns for the job. Even though he has probably learned his lesson after this stupidity, I still don't trust him as far as I could throw him to not pull yet another dumb move.

I'm going to repost this in case someone misses it ... this is some of the most useful content of the thread

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it just needs more voltage

I always get interviewed by the pilot and have to show my letter. Really hard to do flying on retired credentials. . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Ah, the joys of alcohol.

And ya get to board first


Oh, and no drinkin er dancing allowed




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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Are you being intentionally obtuse or do you just not know how to politely ask a question?

You made precisely the same error that Clownshoes did: you tried to pick it up quickly. Failing to clip Old Lady Carmody isn't proof what you did was right.

The gun isn't going to magically fire sitting there. Stop, take a breath, take control of the area (in some locales, yes--that might mean standing on your gun), and then take your time. Maybe there's a safe direction you can point it. Maybe there's someone in the immediate vicinity that would move if you asked nicely.

Guns go off because fingers squeeze triggers. And fingers squeeze triggers when people act hastily.

If anything, you are proof of my point: "See, I dropped my gun, and I didn't shoot anybody! All you have to do is not make a mistake!" That's pretty Clownshoes.

Dude. I’ve been involved in dozens of dynamic entries where a gun hit the deck. Your first reaction is always to get control quickly . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Ain't it the truth......^^^^^^^^^^




That's why I had a lanyard on mine.


If I drop'd it, I could jest reel er in by the cord.



No trigger pullin needed.





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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

I concur.

big d, you surprise me.
it is absolutely possible to pick up a gun without touching the trigger.
keeping y finger out of the trigger guard has been drilled into me to the point that there would be no thinking involved.
i simply would automatically never touch the trigger.
he was not being shot at, after all.

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susie

I'm going to give this thread about 10-12 more posts before the lock.

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Un-Reconstructed Southerner

....you might have confused me with someone else.

I did pick up my gun without touching the trigger.

Be safe.

Do you think I vaulted the railing, did a tactical roll, and then dove under the table?

In fact, had I not collected my gun swiftly it is altogether possible others might have claimed it.

FTR, like most professional LEO’s I did NOT panic; that’s likely due to the fact I have experienced myriad very serious interactions...in person...not behind a keyboard.

Be safe.

oh, big d, i wasn't impugning your skills.
i was commenting on your defense of defendant's sloppy
gun handling.
since no one was shooting at him, there was no excuse for touching that trigger.

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susie

So, whatta y’all think about that raccoon scaled the skyscraper in St. Paul a coupla days back?

Just ambitious or plain loco?

It may very well be that as we get older and law enforcement personal get younger that more incidents like this will occur simply because in this day and age the consequences of actions are seldom considered by the "young". A "modern" phenomena?

Was he actually wearing a holster? If so was it approved, or had he been watching too much TV and carrying in his waist band?

Many years ago I was based in a station where the main car was authorised to carry firearms 24/7. In practice this only occurred at night. One afternoon an armed incident occurred and everyone rushed to the station safe to arm up. (This was early-mid 90's when issue firearms were S&W model 10's and Remmington Model 7 .223 rifles).

I had just finished loading my rifle when I turned to my right. The young cop beside me swung (ouch, too much TV) the cylinder of his model 10 closed then turned towards me with his finger inside the trigger guard of the revolver.

I slapped that pistol down and away so fast everyone else wondered what had happened. The protestations of "My finger wasn't on the trigger" meant nothing.

A few years later I did my Glock transition training with this young cop, who was now a detective (defective??) and made sure to tell the story in a group session without naming the person involved. The instructors went ballistic about how stupid he was and he should not have been in the job. His fellow cops said my reaction was mild to what theirs would have been.

I understand the NYPD has a zero alcohol while carrying off duty policy (along with a 24 hr requirement to carry). Can someone in the know advise what the FBI policy is?

Near where I am now several years ago a sole charge officer an hour from he nearest city and 45 minutes from the nearest town, was off duty playing golf on a Sunday. He visited the 19th hole afterwards.. When he got home (police house next to the station) he carried on drinking with his mates. A crash occurred 10 minutes away and as his patrol car contained the emergency oxygen supply he decided to put himself on duty and attend. A highway patrol officer spoke to him, noted his alcohol intake and took the appropriate actions.

The judge discharge the cop without a conviction due to the circumstances. He kept his job but was transferred out of his position and we now have strict off duty guidelines. We are witnesses first, cops only when absolutely necessary, and any alcohol consumed means it is never absolutely necessary.

About 10 years ago there was a hostage situation in a beachside hotel that went on for almost 24 hours. Our Armed Offenders Squad (SWAT team) responded, as did AOS squads from another two cities. One of those squads was not on call. Several members had had a small amount of alcohol that afternoon/evening at a barbecue. Although not on call they responded because they thought they should.

The offender was shot and killed. Every AOS cop at the scene was blood tested for alcohol. Those that had been drinking were never above the drink driving limits but all received employment warnings for responding after drinking and breaking the department rules.

That lit'l bandit stole the show !!!


.

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

There are some mistakes that require swift and severe action. In this case I think being fired is the correct move. Does he need to be in prison? No, I don't think so, but that will depend on the judge.

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Freedom isn't free.

Your statement is simply not true.

Be safe.

My experience (from the 70s to the 00s) was that near every Precinct House there was a bar which did a substantial amount of buisness with Police Officers. You could always find an off duty officer or three there. Those officers were armed. They likely were not drinking club soda. Everyone knew about it. People were not being accidently (or otherwise) shot.

I conclude we had better training (at home, in the academy, on the job) than the new batch.

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Certified Curmudgeon

Did you read that part where I mentioned "control the area"? Besides, this is "dropping your gun while getting a Jamba Juice", not tactical ninja nonsense.

The last refuge of the scoundrel: grr, you're a keyboard commando!

This is a direct result of taking dodge ball out of the schools.....

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James Redfield
LM #497

Duly noted . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I LOVE lanyards. Wish everything had a lanyard hole.

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Oui Chef!

Gone out of favor? I'm not sure when they came into favor, but if they did, it was after the greater part of a century of a very widespread use of revolvers with no manual safety even available.

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Formerly Model520Fan

Lots of new information here. Got his gun back, BAC results won’t be released but don’t warrant additional charge, has been offered plea deal. Discuss . . .

Dancing FBI agent, accused in backflip gunfire incident, can carry weapon again - CBS News

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

...not according to the law in Colorado...

18-3-204. Assault in the third degree
(1) A person commits the crime of assault in the third degree if:
(a) The person knowingly or recklessly causes bodily injury to another person or with criminal negligence the person causes bodily injury to another person by means of a deadly weapon; or
(b) The person, with intent to harass, annoy, threaten, or alarm another person whom the actor knows or reasonably should know to be a peace officer, a firefighter, an emergency medical care provider, or an emergency medical service provider, causes the other person to come into contact with blood, seminal fluid, urine, feces, saliva, mucus, vomit, or toxic, caustic, or hazardous material by any means, including throwing, tossing, or expelling the fluid or material.
(2) Repealed.
(3) Assault in the third degree is a class 1 misdemeanor and is an extraordinary risk crime that is subject to the modified sentencing range specified in section 18-1.3-501 (3).
(4) Repealed.

...there are no such things as "accidents". Once you know better everything is negligence.

So he will be only have to plea to a misdemeanor, no loss of the ability to carry a gun and probable no loss of job... The FBI puts a lot of money into hiring someone...if they want to keep him they will... Hopefully he'll learn from this...

Bob

No surprise here.

I still remember the FBI wrong way crash down here. The drunk (0.14% almost twice the limit.) agent got reduced charges while two young men never made it home that night/early morning.

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Dum vivo cano

Glocks have a long history of involvement in unintentional discharge incidents. It is usually blamed on inadequate firearms training and/or negligence of the owner and a fairly light trigger pull. NYPD requires that their Glocks have an 8-pound pull (or maybe it's even heavier today) instead of the normal 5.5 pound pull. Allegedly that has reduced such NYPD UD incidents but it has created other problems. I guess the FBI Glocks don't have the NY trigger.

I believe some foreign LE agencies require Glocks to have additional external thumb operated safeties. I know one local gunsmith who has modified a fairly large number of Glocks to have external safeties.

Got to disagree with you on this, completely.

There's 4 rules, learn them and live by them, or stay away from guns.

Please do not project or assume I would do what you may or may not do.

Booger hook off the bang stick until your eyes are on the sights.

Clearly, he did not abide by this rule.

Well ... 4 pages that have pretty much covered everything from Tar and Feather to Training and Stupidity..

Thank you all for your input.

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SWCA #2306
DAV in honor of POP