MY condo is about 12 or 13 years old, and we've lived here 3 and a half years. I had gone for a 25 mile bike ride Saturday morning, so I fell asleep in my easy chair right after dinner. At 10:30 I woke up and the wife was in the sewing room and mentions the A/C isn't cooling like it should. I looked out side and the Condenser unit isn't running at all so I put the thermostat to off and the fan to on and let it rest overnight.

After church Sunday I pull out my tools and start checking all the "usual suspects"; broken or burnt wire and contacts. Everything looked beautiful, In fact it didn't look like anyone had been inside the A/C since installation! That is always a good sign! So I turned the thermostat to cool and went back out to look at it. The fan wasn't running and the compressor was not starting but going straight into "reset". I shut down the disconnect switch, next to the A/C and got out the multi meter. My ohms area is dead, so I put a new AA battery in and it is still dead. I tell the wife I need to run to Lowe's to buy a new cheap multi tester; would she like to ride along and we can celebrate National Ice Cream Day while we are out. She had just written checks for the early month bill so after the Post Office we stopped at Whit's Frozen Custard, She got the flavor of the week, Mint Cookies & Cream, I got the standby Chocolate. Off to Lowe's like a herd of turtles! I but the least expensive meter they have $12.99 ( I used to get them for $7.99, the time are a changin')!

Back Home I pull the combo start capacitor and fan. The fan motor test good on all the legs, the capacitor is dead on both the 5uf and 35uf legs, so there is my culprit! I leave the house at 6:45 this morning and after a pit stop at MICKY D's I'm at the parts house 2 minutes before they open at 7:30 I have the offending part and model number and lie and say it is for my companies cash account ( that company has been defunct for 10 years!) They sell to me, but I pay dealer list instead of wholesale, still 20% less than retail! $6.68 +2% for charge card (14 cents) + 50 cents sales tax for a total of $7.32.

I am going the opposite of rush hour traffic and get home in 20 minutes. I had returned everything I could last night so it took maybe 5 minutes to install the capacitor. BUT I forgot the exact wiring and the schematic was unclear on 1 wire. I drove around the condo complex looking until I found an empty unit, I removed the A/C access panel and took 3 photos of the wiring and closed it back up. I went back to my unit corrected the wire I had wrong, turned the thermostat to cool and fan to auto. I turned on the disconnect switch and everything powered up fine. The fan had the mild roar they are suppose to make and the compressor had the proper underlying hum. It was throwing of heat in about 20 seconds, so I returned the access cover and closed the windows and drapes. I called the wife at work and gave her the good news.

It took an actual time of 2 1/2 hours including buying a multi-meter and travel. The cost was just over $20 with the meter. I am out of practice and have no parts in stock, my tool are no longer organized for A/C service. Back in the day (sold in 2006) my brother would have charged about $75 for the call and actual price for the parts! On the worst day of the year we had same day service. We had very few customers (only people we sold the building to) and they loved us, most often mailing a check before our bill arrived!

Nobody else I know does business like that! They could but nobody wants to be good AND affordable! Just rude AND expensive!

Ivan

I never got into knowing how to work with electricity and hate myself for it.
I just carry an extra water pump and correct size fan belt for my old cooler.

You are right about prices going up !!

From here on in to the last part of September, is no time for the A/C to break down.

Stay cool, man.

You have done very well. Most of us don't have your knowledge or expertise, so we are at the mercy of tradesmen for our repairs. I always tell people that when they find a contractor who is straightforward and honest they should hold him close to their hearts and spread the word to family and friends.

Unfortunately, there are plenty of contractors who look at each service call as an opportunity to sell a new unit. The guys with the slick, professional half-page newspaper ads and yellow pages ads are best avoided, in my experience, especially when they advertise "low cost financing available". The companies whose "estimators" are actually commissioned sales people are also best avoided.

Also unfortunately, the economy and inflation have driven up costs significantly over the past several decades. Contractors' general liability insurance premiums have gone through the roof (frequently 20 times what was common 15 or 20 years ago), workers' compensation coverage is also sky high, a $40K to $50K service truck is now required to do what a $20K truck did not very long ago, and $3-plus per gallon fuel adds another layer of expense in doing business. The small independent contractor is now dealing with health insurance costs that are 5 to 10 times what he might have paid just 10 years ago.

I predict that it won't be long before the days of free inspections and estimates are gone forever; when it costs $300 to $400 per day to pay an experienced serviceman, cover insurance, vehicle expenses, and other overhead, it is getting very challenging to send qualified people out day after day without charging the costs of providing that most basic service.

$20 per hour is actually pretty minimal pay for a trained and experienced HVAC technician. Workers' comp, unemployment insurance, liability insurance, vehicle insurance, and vehicle operating costs will quickly turn even that relatively low number into $30 or $40 (especially if there is an employer-sponsored health plan). Two hours to drive across town, perform a detailed diagnostic service, and get back to the shop turns into $60 to $80 raw cost to the company, and doing that 3 to 5 times per day means a drain on company assets to the tune of $180 to $400 per day. Somehow the contractor has to figure out a way to sell something every day that will cover that cost and add a little profit in order to stay in business.

It ain't easy being in a service-oriented business these days. There is no excuse for those who lie, cheat, or steal, but everyone else needs to be paid fairly so they will still be around next week, next month, or next year when we need them.

Best regards.

It's always great to read a story with a fantastic ending!!!

Diagnostics and troubleshooting is usually the toughest phase of repairs. Ivan nailed it, every step of the way. With the exception of a defective compressor last year, my A/C problems have usually been with either the start, or run capacitor, or the relay unit.

The relay failures were associated with ants or bugs infiltrating the unit. Now I spray insecticide from Lowes around my units every month in the summer. That potential problem has been solved.

Kudos to Ivan on this experience, especially celebrating National Ice Creme Day before starting the repairs. Rocky Road or Cookies and Creme works for me.

Bill

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That's what we do!

I don't do AC but your 2nd sentence explains why I charge what I do for refer issues.

A/C guy is here right now. Compressor was a block of ice this AM. Humidifier gauge was pinned @ 100, 83 degrees. 1 Month out on the warranty. Gotta go look for the KY.

What's the ballpark $ figure for a 5 ton Frigidaire A/C expansion valve, roughly. Thanks.

First of all it's impossible for the comp to be encased in ice. Same for condenser. Evap yes. So if this guy told you that tell him to hit the road.

It was the largest piece (compressor I thought???) under the fan in the outside unit. DEFINATELY frosted/iced up good. The hose & power nozzle (the Italian broom) got the ice off it. EDIT: swap compressor with condenser (???), my bad. I should know better having been a ship/rec cluck for Brothers heating/plumbing supplies in Denver in 82-83. Everything was just a number to me.

Ivan, I had the same thing happen to me last week. The house started getting stuffy around 11:00 PM and while I was going out to let the dog in for the night noticed that the condenser fan wasn't running, but the compressor was. I turned off the outside unit from the thermostat and let the outside unit cool down. I then decided to see if the fan would spin up if I gave it a push start with a long screwdriver and turned the unit back on. The fan did slowly spin up then, but the compressor went to immediate reset.

The next morning I called the A/C people I usually use and they got to the house by the afternoon. Sure enough, the capacitor was bad and he had the correct replacement and got me back up and running. Only problem was what cost you less than $25 ended up costing me over $150. But, I'm not an A/C person and don't know where to buy the parts. And with as hot and humid it is down here it just hurt a little bit when the bill came in. BTW, they charged $100/hr labor on the bill. I might have to shop around for a new A/C repairman I think. These folks used to be reasonable, but they look to be padding the bill quite a bit. That capacitor you paid $7.32 for; well they charged over $50 on the bill!

??? please explain.

Not familiar with the current pricing for parts. But the cost of installation will involve reclaiming all the refrigerant (commonly called Freon) major disassembly, then reassembly pressure test and then return the refrigerant.
Some companies only reclaim and recycle Freon the don't have a system for reuse (SO you pay for new!). On the outside of all A/C units and furnaces with A/C coils is a tag with lots of numbers it also includes the amount and type of Refrigerant, add those two totals and add about 19 ounces for the copper line connecting the two, There could be 5% more for filters & ect. Now you know how much you should be billed for. I have no Idea how much they charge per pound, but for R-22, it should be a FEW $ per pound. Find out up front! There is no negotiation on the price, just find someone else if you are being ripped off!

Ivan

Not to argue, but I have seen compressors covered in solid frozen condensation (aka; ice). In Ohio it usually takes days of not working right and continued running without any air coming out the vents!

Ivan

I wrote/started this thread, to show how easy some problems can be. If you are all thumbs with tools, please don't try this yourself. But if you are a little handy and can use a basic multi meter, it won't hurt to check out what you can. I haven't talked about individuals work with the refrigerant. That is a federal No-No without an EPA certificate, but you can do anything electrical, and you can add up totals on Freon! Don't be foolish, don't do anything unsafe, just be aware and beware!

Ivan

Bull, compressors run hot, no way in hell they'll gather ice.

Diagnostics. I charge $130 for the 1st 1/2 hour in the home to diagnose problem.

OK, If you had worked on them and with them you would realize, the heat comes from the compressing of the refrigerant (hence the name). When the amount of refrigerant leaks below around 55 psi on the suction side, the surface temperature of your evaporator coil drops below 32 degrees F. (blocked air flow causes this also) The "Ice" on the surface starts inside the furnace and slowly works back to the compressor, it is in fact the last thing covered. The copper lines are supposed to be covered in insulation, so you can't see the progress. (I saw it progress about 8" a minute one time! on non-insulated lines)

The "Ice" has to be completely gone before you can get the final and proper pressure/temperature readings. I always told my tenants and paying customers to shut the A/C of at the first sign of problems! Very few would listen! (They thought they knew better, like paulh!) I often had to return the next day to start repairs. And the previous nights problems took precedence!

Compared to the guys that taught me A/C repair, I'm new at it! I started in 1974, one of them started in the 50's while in college. My granddad died 9 years before I was born, Refrigeration was his trade, and his cousins owned City Fuel and Ice in Columbus. The whole area depended on their knowledge to keep the fresh food from spoiling. Some of the stories about what happened are truly unbelievable, from a text book physics point of view, but experience shows us there are things the books never took into consideration!

Ivan

OBVIOUSLY!

I may not know squat about A/C or the correct names of parts, but I DO KNOW ice/frost when I see it. "impossible" is almost as bad as saying always or never. Whether it's the compressor (1st choice) or condenser it has frozen multiple times before when Freon or R22 was low & again when the "Freon filter" was bad. Thanks for the helpful polite reply's Ivan, you are a class act.

Been working on people’s stuff for years and I really get tired of them accusing service men of being crooks. I know very few service people who have become wealthy beyond lower middle class. The biggest complainers are usually the people who make the most money. Think they give discounts to anyone? Not likely.

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Hue 68 noli me tangere

Those cheap little pocket meters work great, but are cheaply made. Early 80's the company I worked for issued me a new Fluke 75. First digital meter I ever worked with. When I left they didn't ask for it back! I still have it and it works like the day I got. It doesn't look like the day I got it though.

We "fixed" our A/C by just not having any. We do have a coupla fans that we turn on from time to time though.

I used to work as a repair tech at the RubberMaid Commercial Products. The experience helps me keep the stuff in the house working.

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Keep on Chooglin'

SWMBO and I lived in the farm house for 30-31 years. Lots of windows and 10 foot ceilings. When we bought it, it was surrounded by large walnut and maple trees. I installed ceiling fans in the dinning room, kitchen and Master BR. We never needed A/C. About 1995 we started loosing the shade trees. The last came down in an ice storm at Christmas 2003 and left us without power for 11 days. Since then the house got unbearably warm in July and August. We didn't notice the heat and cold in our 20's as we do in our 60's!

We survived this break down because we installed ceiling 2 fans and have a couple box fans we push air around with! I still have a generator, but in a prolonged outage it won't power the A/C. I doubt that I'll upgrade my preparedness to include A/C in times of disaster! But SWMBO is much happier at medium temperatures!

Ivan

How do you test the capacitor?

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I am the Majority
How about u

I always had cheap multi meters, because the got stomped. dropped, electrocuted, and stolen. But my Amp meter was of good quality but lowest end. I bought a discontinued model in 1975 and it looks like 1950's technology. It is smaller than a child's hand and only 2 functions: Amps and Volts AC. It will slide right through the jumble of wires a 3 stage electric furnace contains. Some of my men had Fluke's smaller units, but they were too large to easily work on the units! The old meter still work and looks the same as when I bought it!

Ivan

The capacitor is gone. That is music to my ears.

The compressor is gone. That is NOT music to my ears.


You did great. I'd turn that job into a week at least and then end up calling the service guy.

FORTUNATELY, our are very straight up after dealing with criminals for years.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I get VOM from Harbor Freight free with any thing I buy with a coupon.
Have several laying around unopened. Work great....
And I have worked in electrical, electronics and computers for over 40 years.

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Only difference Fool/Mule-ears

The simplest way to test line voltage capacitors is:

1)Turn power off and remove the wires.

2)put a screwdriver across the terminals, so you don't shocked!

3) put the multi meter on the 100 or 1000 ohms setting and put one lead to a terminal, then briefly touch the other lead to the opposite terminal. Reverse and repeat. If the cap is good the meter will have a momentary spike (at least the second time). If bad (called "Open") it dose nothing.

This is all you really need. I bought a $5 tester in the 70's that also check for "Leaking" circuits, you may as well replace the cap. because it will "Open" soon.

Some multi function capacitors will have 3 set of terminals. There is sometimes a bleed resistor across 2 sets of terminals, I have never seen it being necessary to replace the resister if you replace the capacitor.

The are 2 types of motor capacitors: Run and Start. you have to replace them with the same type! TO tell the apart, remember this simple rule: Round is not run! (44 years after learning it, it still works and still sounds goofy!)

Lastly, there are "Hard start Kits", these are just add-on start capacitors. I went to service an A/C and it didn't sound right! It had 4 Hard start kits in series! I removed all of them and then serviced the system as normal. None were necessary! I think they are often sold just to raise the price on the bill!!

Ivan

With the help of a friend who had gone through it a month before and YouTube, I was able to diagnose that my capacitor/starter was fried. It was a 90+ degree day and about 4:00PM.

There is a plumbing supply house about ten minutes from my house. I drove there only to find out that they had none in stock that met the specs for my unit.

As it happened, there was a guy standing there getting some stuff for the next day's job. He GAVE me a capacitor/starter that would work. I didn't have any cash on me and he said he'd trust me to come back and leave the money with the counter man.

Neither the counter man nor the AC tech knew me and as far as he knew, he might have just given away a part he'd need tomorrow.

I went back home, put the starer/capacitor in a cool air started to flow. I grabbed $40.00 out of my gun cash envelope and drove back to the shop. The guy was gone, but I had his name and wrote in an envelope and put the money inside.

I still have his card and guess who I'm going to call if my AC needs real work?

I certainly lucked out that day.

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Can open, worms everywhere.

R-22 is anything from $70 to $130/lb in this city. If a repair is being made on a home warranty contract then reuse of recovered R-22 is not permitted. Oh, and the warranty company will only cover new stuff up to $10/lb. Buddy at work is going through this process right now.

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Release the Kraken

Those capacitors are nasty little critters. I'm sure my HVAC guy saved me a lot of grief this summer replacing everything on my unit.

When the honest HVAC tech comes calling...

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Release the Kraken

Ivan: Refrigeration operates on the same principles only less Freon. The only time I see frost back on the suction line into the compressor is if it's over charged.

I am truly blessed as I have an honest auto mechanic, plumber and HVAC man. Honest to the point where if they tell me I need "X" than so it is. In small towns word gets around quickly about who is good and honest ans who will screw you. I've known these guys for years and they are all poor schlubs like me who just want to do an honest job for their clients/customers and get paid a fair price. QUite refreshing really.
As for me, I quit doing my own HVAC, plumbing and auto work years ago. For me it was just a time issue.
Still do my own boat work though-that's theraputic

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Forum consigliere

HOPEFULLY the diagnosis is correct, a sticking thermal expansion valve & ALL that goes along with it. A 4 wrench rating on the difficulty scale, I'll pass. R22 will no longer be available here in a year or so & ONLY licensed HVAC guys can buy it, or many parts. Currently using 410 refrigerant. 799$ out the door. 82 degrees & 90% humidity (inside) @ 10 AM, GOD BLESS AIR CONDITIONING.

In the 70's, I did a little refrigerator repair in the apartments. Lots of people stabbed their freezer instead of defrosting it!

When the US left R-12 and went to a zillion different coolants, I didn't even try to follow in repairs! They were using Propane (R-2000) for a while and that seemed to be a good place to not be!

I'm doing Environmental clean up now. So I have to follow the company speal about Ozone and CFC's & CCFC's, but personally that is all based on incomplete junk science! One good volcano eruption puts off more CFC's than mankind has made since their commercial discovery! Where is the ozone hole now? filled back in by the natural ozone factory; Lightning!

R-22 has a higher boiling temp, so it is better for household cooling (I've seen window unit from the late 60's-early 70's that were R-12 but very few!) I also know that R-22 systems operate at several time the pressure of R-12 systems. It could be worse, my mother-in-law's house had a Natural Gas powered A/C. That and the N.G. refrigerators use forms of ammonia as the refrigerant! (YUCH!!!) But extremely low pressure. That's the stuff my granddad worked with. He probably never saw a can of R-12 or 22!

By the way $130 per hour sounds like good money if you can keep busy.

Ivan

I have never worked with the R-400 series refrigerants. I was hired to keep older systems running, so the could avoid the new stuff! R-400 runs at not quite double the pressures of R22. But the compressors are the same; same technology, same part numbers sometimes! On A/C's it with take several years off the life! But the Feds say it only has to last 5 years! Around here, we have lots of heat pumps, those are pretty much year round items. Guys I talk to say 7 years is a common failure rate! Same for hot climate A/C's. R-400 is a salesman's dream come true!

R-22 will still be sold in the US. It will be recycled R-22! A customs man told me the #1 smuggled item, after drugs, in 2005 was R-22 from India, That is going to get worse!

BTW: about reusing your refrigerant that they reclaimed. The EPA regs say it can be reused only on the same property. I had 2 reclamation tanks, one for contaminated and one for reusable. That saved me some good money from 1992 to 2006. Just the cost of the tank and some filters!

Ivan

My cost for R22 was $40.00/30lb a few years ago. A 30lb keg now COSTS ME $712 wholesale, and it goes up daily. To me that's more than a few bucks per pound.
Ivan, I think that you are extremely lucky repairing your unit with two run caps. When a run cap blows, run amps double or triple, burning out a motor's run windings in a very short time.
You should buy a lottery ticket.
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I don't have Alzheimer's- My wife had me tested.

Very true!
R 410a head pressures on a 95F day are around 50% higher for a comparable R 22 unit on the same day.
Ozone Depletion Potential (ODP) is a relative measurement. If we assign R 22 an ODP of 1, the ODP of the old R 12 is 20. R 12 is 20 times more harmful to the ozone than R 22. ODP of R 410a is zero but operating pressures are VERY high.
We've had R 134a around for years, its ODP is also zero, its pressures are more in line with R 22, but for some reason we ignore it for HVAC use.

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I don't have Alzheimer's- My wife had me tested.

This thread got me motivated.

It has been unbearably hot and the AC has been laboring. We have cottonwoods here so I went out with the power washer and peeled an Alpaca sweater off the condenser fins.

If anybody has any beef they want aged, I'm your huckleberry.

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Music/Sports/Beer fan

Even the cheepie digital volt/ohmmeters all have a CAP measurement now. Readout in microfarads.

A run cap in a motor that's up to speed works like a supercharger for the motor. In a 240 volt unit, back EMF across the run cap will be around 270 to 340 volts. This translates to a corresponding run current reduction for the motor.
It seems like magic. Nikola Tesla was a true genius.

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I don't have Alzheimer's- My wife had me tested.

When I started in 1974, R-12 was 17 cents a pound and R-22 was 19 or 20. This was an unbrand, not genuine DuPont Freon! It has been 8 or more years since I picked any R-22 up for my company or the one I worked for after that. Last 30# jug I bought was $70, again an unbrand. My main supply house carried DuPont and it was 25 to 30% more!

I bought a lottery ticket last weekend and I'm still in the condo instead of my own privet mountain! But my A/C still works.

It has been my experience that A/C units are pretty durable. The problem is that idiots keep running them when they need repaired! They abuse it for a few weeks of fair weather, then wonder why you need to get major parts on the hottest day of the year and every supply house for 150 mile is sold out and the factory is on back-order! Although, one company I worked for had very deep pockets. They had 75 complexes in Central Ohio, the one I was at was their Flagship! It had 514 very expensive units. When I arrived in December that had a 2 car garage full of brand new compressors, fan motors, and whole units (several each of 3 to 5 ton Heat Pumps) That was the dream part of working there! The tenants were dumb enough to make house payment size rent and demanded to be treated like royalty! (Best unit was 2 huge BR, 2.5 bath, 2car garage, view of the lake from every window: 2200 Sq. Ft. = $2700 pre month! My brother had a Executive rental home business, 2200 Sq, Ft., 4 BR , 2+2 half baths, 2 car garage, but no lake + $1800 similar neighborhood & rent to own option.) The tenants had big wallets and very foul mouths. The next place I worked was a mentally ill housing company. I never got cussed out as bad by the crazies as but the over privileged!

Ivan

I'M CHILLIN! Guess where you could hang your car keys? The NE got hammered by heat pretty good this year. For FL I haven't seen 100 degrees in THE 15 years I've been here, 98 maybe. After 95 rain isn't far off. Humidity, yeah we have that.

PC has never been my strong suit! or even allowed in my vocabulary! In fact, I like guns, God, and good clean living: I'm not allowed in the PC clubhouse!

Ivan

I've also recently been a victim of a broken AC, and am about the 4th of my friends to have issues so far this summer. I came home Thursday night from a hot day at work only to find it just as hot inside as outside. Fast forward to Monday morning and the AC guy finally has the thermostat to replace the one that seems completely inoperative. I'm not sure how anyone survived in deep South Florida before the invention AC.

I say all that to say I feel your discomfort and totally understand your situation. You are blessed that you've got knowledge on how to fix it yourself. Glad you were able to get your issue resolved quickly!

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John 14:6, Luke 21:11

Great thread. I didn't know that the head on 400 was that different from 22. learned a lot. Explains why the units don't seem to last as long as they used to.When I was working in HVAC back in 75-76 we used to use 22 to blow out drain lines in a pinch I remember those green 30# canisters very well.

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Forum consigliere

Oh yeah! I use to do that too! I know a guy in the Air Force Reserve in the 70"s, When a bomb bunker got too hot they would hose the bombs down with R-12 by the semi tanker load(it was the cheapest!) to cool them down! I think that would still be better than a couple hundred 500 pound bombs cooking off!

My teachers taught me to kill wasps with R22 also! Do that now and it is a $25,000 fine! A can of Hornet and wasp spray works better anyway! I started carrying "Canned Air" (for computer keyboards) about 10 years ago to blow out clogged condensation lines. It comes in handy for a number of other things (Including reloading bench clean-up).

Those cans of canned air are actually Difluoroethane, a refrigerant (R 153 I think). Also an ODP of zero.
BTW:
If you have overheated electronics or a motor, turn that canned air can upside down so it sprays out (VERY COLD) liquid.
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I don't have Alzheimer's- My wife had me tested.