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Old 07-21-2018, 05:42 AM
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Default New weapon for military: shoot like a tank!

New rifle is lighter and hits farther and harder. It is designed to penetrate better body armor troops have been coming against.
I'd like to know what you vets think of it.
Thanks!
Army's new machine gun will blast like battle tanks | Fox News
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Old 07-21-2018, 06:00 AM
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What would the U.S.'s response be if the Chinese fielded something laser based, something beyond inhumane that takes out the eyes of a whole battlefield enemy soldiers? At some point some country is going to field something horrific that leverages today's technology, and other countries will have to follow suit lest they stand zero chance on the battle field. Maybe at that point battle will be forced to become battle between competing swarms of autonomous drones because it'd too horrific to put people out there. I can envision the days of small kinetic weapons waning.
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Old 07-21-2018, 06:48 AM
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There is no telling what they have and we have that no one talks about. The true cutting edge weaponry technology you won't see on the news. I was told about planes that fly without pilots by a newly retired navy officer back in the 70s ,I thought he was just shooting bull .Planes without pilots in combat ,cameras that can take pictures in the dark clear enough to read a license plate ! Come on back in the 70s think about it our military had developed that technology back then or were at least developing and refining but it wasn't on the local news .
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Old 07-21-2018, 07:56 AM
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No matter the innovative weapons it will always take a grunt to possess and hold a critical area of the battlefield. Vietnam and Afghanistan both illustrated that high tech is not the only way to fight a war. We have weapons that will end the world now. I am much more afraid of biological weapons that could decimate large parts of the population before they were countered. If it ever gets to WW3 I don’t think there will be a winner.
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Old 07-21-2018, 08:01 AM
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many years ago i heard that actual technology was a minimum 15-20 years ahead of what they actually tell us. as fast as technology has advanced in recent years there's no telling what capabilities are available now or on the horizon.
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Old 07-21-2018, 09:22 AM
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Any weapon we develop to kill the enemy faster, furthest and more gruesomely is good.
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Old 07-21-2018, 10:02 AM
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If you actually read the article, there is much less than the headline would lead you to think there is. The Army is looking to replace the existing M249 with a different caliber. They want something with a higher velocity round, that also has more bullet mass. The 5.56 has velocity, but not enough mass. The 7.62 has mass, but not enough velocity.

The "new" gun is in early development and there isn't even a round for it yet.

The article also said the new gun will be capable of firing 60 rounds... a minute.

I'm not at all impressed with the "defense analyst" who wrote the article.
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Old 07-21-2018, 10:03 AM
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Any weapon we develop to kill the enemy faster, furthest and more gruesomely is good.
The problem is - they only have to capture one, then they can copy it.
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Old 07-21-2018, 11:10 AM
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All that stuff said is somewhat confusing. The laws of physics still apply in some way. Beam weapons...Lasers ...sonics..ok...something new. Lighter faster Much more devastating? Makes for a good headline...something like the old thing about the "new" 5.56....tumbling bullets tearing your arms off.
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Old 07-21-2018, 12:31 PM
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What would the U.S.'s response be if the Chinese fielded something laser based, something beyond inhumane that takes out the eyes of a whole battlefield enemy soldiers? .
Hang disco balls from the bayonet lugs.
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Old 07-21-2018, 04:32 PM
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Which is why we aren't likely to see any sort of handheld energy weapon in the near future. The Air Force had an airplane based laser that was used to shoot down a satellite in a test.

It was housed in a 747 as I recall, because it needed that much energy to power it.

I think we're going to see firearms more or less as we know them for quite some time. Even caseless ammunition, which was the next big thing about 30 years ago never became popular.



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All that stuff said is somewhat confusing. The laws of physics still apply in some way. Beam weapons...Lasers ...sonics..ok...something new. Lighter faster Much more devastating? Makes for a good headline...something like the old thing about the "new" 5.56....tumbling bullets tearing your arms off.
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Old 07-21-2018, 04:52 PM
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Which is why we aren't likely to see any sort of handheld energy weapon in the near future. The Air Force had an airplane based laser that was used to shoot down a satellite in a test.

It was housed in a 747 as I recall, because it needed that much energy to power it.

I think we're going to see firearms more or less as we know them for quite some time. Even caseless ammunition, which was the next big thing about 30 years ago never became popular.
True. While the "Brown Bess" was state of the art in its day, so are our weapons today. I see what the progression will be eventually and yet there will still be similarities. While I do not see "Capt Kirk's phaser" any time in our future, small arms are evolutionary like everything else. The next step up will be caseless, but not in the way caseless has been presented in the past. The calibers will be smaller, velocity and ranges higher, and the bullets will be like micro versions of a guided missile; they will lock on and follow specifics targets including over and around obstacles. The weapons will be made of polymers and ceramics, not metal. They will be smaller, lighter, and more ergonomic and similar to operate or make mission specific. Less than a rifle, but more than a pistol, and usable in all enviroments from underwater to out in space with no modifications. Because of this, infantry units will be much smaller than those of today and the tactics will change to accomodate. Down the road, caseless will be obsolete and replaced by railgun technology firing little more than polymer needles at such velocity that even machine guns will be gone and the basic infantryman will be a threat to everything up to and including small ships.

Until that comes to pass, anything the military will field (note that I didn't say "has") to the troops will be merely another look to systems that have been around in some form for over a century.

Like adapting a pistol...when was the last time a battle was won using one?
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Old 07-21-2018, 05:35 PM
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The article is total BS. A SAW machingun that hits like a Abrams Tank? I don't think so. If they are just wanting a little more velocity and mass to penetrate armor, maybe something with ballistics like a .240 Weatherby Magnum?
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Old 07-21-2018, 05:45 PM
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What would the U.S.'s response be if the Chinese fielded something laser based, something beyond inhumane that takes out the eyes of a whole battlefield enemy soldiers?

See "Laser Dazzle Sight" from 1982 as fitted to Royal Navy warships.
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Old 07-21-2018, 05:47 PM
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Remember those Starlight scopes? So High-tech we were issued Thermite Grenades to destroy them if we had to leave them behind.
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Old 07-21-2018, 05:55 PM
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Other articles I'm reading on this new weapon suggest chamber pressures anything from 60 to 80 kpsi. The phrase "throat erosion" springs to mind unless somebody has come up with some sexy cool burning propellant. Then there is the issue of locking the bolt to the barrel safely and how the gun handles gas in the event of a case failure.
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Old 07-21-2018, 06:54 PM
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I think Tesla left a few nuggets they are still figuring out.
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Old 07-21-2018, 08:43 PM
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So the Army says it needs a new infantry weapon to kill bad guys at 2000 yards. I guess someone forgot we already have mortars that do this. But then, my Army was one with the "why take out a point target when you can take out a whole grid square?" approach to indirect fire. indirect fire has always been the biggest killer on the battlefield.

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Old 07-21-2018, 09:09 PM
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Jim Goodall speaking of Ben Rich who was the second director of Lockheed's Skunkworks Projects (there has only been 3 directors since it's inception)---- "About ten days before he died, I was speaking to Ben on the telephone at the USC Medical Center in LA. And he said, ‘Jim, we have things out in the desert that are fifty years beyond what you can comprehend. "
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Old 07-22-2018, 10:19 AM
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Remember the XM29 OICW (20mm and 5.56mm combination)? That was supposed to be the end-all and be-all of personal ground combat weapons for the rest of the 21st century. The Army poured many millions into its development amid tons of publicity. But what happened? Nothing. And it's doubtful the OICW will ever be resurrected. Most of us who knew anything about the OICW also suspected it was doomed from the start, just based upon cost alone. I used to keep a large glossy Army publicity poster about it tacked on the wall over my desk just to remind me how screwed up the Army was. I wish I had kept that poster.

I believe that variants of the basic M16/M4/M249 designs will remain the principal small arms weapons in U. S. combat use when we are all in our graves.

"Like adapting a pistol...when was the last time a battle was won using one?"
Exactly. The only purpose of having a handgun in combat is to provide something to use if you have nothing better to hold off the enemy with until someone with a rifle shows up to rescue you.

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Old 07-22-2018, 02:25 PM
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The Army's always looking for a technology solution for a training problem.
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Old 07-23-2018, 01:26 AM
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Think the USS Zumwalt originally was supposed to be more than one ship in it's class. Nope the bean counters ended up only doing the one ship. Cost projections based on the ships naval guns and more than one ship escalated after it was detirmined only one ship in it's class. So now they are spending even more $$$ to develop laser guns to replace the now useless guns. How about the close in littoral combat ships??. Obvious defects in the ships engines and why was this not caught during shakedown cruises?. The newest aircraft carrier the Ford also has its share of problems. Think our gov't is depending too much on technology and its $$$ costs to solve a raft of problems. Also the Navy has done cost studies on life extension programs figuring out how much it will cost to do overhauls and refitting on existing ships because the costs and performance on the new ones is being tied in sea trials and repairs. Even giving serious thoughts to resurecting at least two older carriers in mothballs and older frigates. Bring back the battleships, keep the 16" guns although we no longer have the long lost technology to make the barrels, best thing is that they all have an armor belt to protect all the engineering spaces. When my ship was overhauled in the 50's some idiot decided to take off the armor belt off all 3200 tons of it. Survivalbility just went down the tubes. I can tell you for a fact that a 500 lb bomb makes one heck of a racket underwater and literally shakes the heck out of things. One experience I definitely do not want to experience again. OK will stop the rant for now. Just ticks me off to see so much time,money and effort to develop the newest end all be all and having it fall on its face. Being an old retired fart with too much time on his hands I read a lot. Thanks for putting up with me. I'll be a good boy and go for now. Frank
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Old 07-23-2018, 02:08 AM
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Holy hell, this is six different kinds of stupid. I mean, either that, or I need to go enlist in the 45th Airborne Troll Division.

--OMG! 60k to 80k PSI! It must blast like a tank! Except the chamber pressure of 5.56mm is 55k-62k psi, depending on which system you go by. And besides, who cares? Pressure has no correlation with velocity, penetration, etc.

--OMG! It's going to defeat body armor at 2,000 feet! Well, considering that the Army's shiny new M855A1 5.56mm cartridge will penetrate 3/16" of hardened steel at 1150 feet, that's not much of a stretch.

The skinny is, it's an M249 SAW 2.0 that only weighs 12 pounds, as opposed to 17. That's sort of a big deal, but only if (A) they can actually do that, and (B) lowering the weight doesn't make it suck.

Although maybe I shouldn't be so hard on the author. She put in a lot of elbow grease trying to polish this yawn-**** into a story.

EDIT: What the hell, moderators? **** is censored? Alright guys, I said a word, that rhymes with "word", ya heard? As in, "a polished ****".


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Old 07-23-2018, 02:25 AM
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The article also said the new gun will be capable of firing 60 rounds... a minute.
Not the rate of fire you're thinking of, old chap.

Cyclic rate of fire is how fast it shoots. That's what most people think of when they think RoF. I believe the M249 has a cyclic RoF of 650-850 rpm.

Sustained rate of fire is what the quoted statistic refers to. It's how fast you can fire when you average in belt/magazine changes, potentially barrel swaps, and allowing time for the gun to cool. Usually, they pick some arbitrary length of time to calculate sustained RoF. Higher sustained RoFs = better at protracted "get your stupid heads down" encouragement. The M249 is quoted around 50 rpm, but obviously, this is a little operator-dependent.

Rapid rate of fire is like Sustained, but over a shorter period of time. So say, for instance, a magazine change or two, but no barrel swaps.

So you can see, a 60 rpm LMG would be a bit of an upgrade.
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Old 07-23-2018, 05:02 AM
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Frank46, I agree with what you posted. They are trying to throw new technology en masse at the new ship designs instead of rolling out incremental upgrades and it has just skyrocketed costs with much less reliability. But a small correction: they cut off the Zumwalt Class monstrosities at 3 ships, not one. You have the Zumwalt in commission, the Michael Monsoor, which is fitting out and the Lyndon B. Johnson, which is still being built. And yes, that is 2 too many in my opinion.
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Old 07-24-2018, 12:00 AM
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Muddocktor, thanks for the heads up regarding the sister ships of the Zumwalt class. Agree with you 100% regarding the latest be all end all ships that are coming on line. They should be making as you mentioned incremental changes as time and money allows. Think the number for the USS Ford was 13 Billion bucks and as far as I know we only have 13 carriers. Even though they are nuclear powered doesn't mean they can stay at sea indefinitely. Limiting factors are and always will be, food, supplies and wear and tear on both the ship and crews. At some point yard overhauls have to be scheduled. All of this costs us the tax payers some serious money. Shame to see it wasted on something that either doesn't work or ends up costing more money to correct problems that should have been taken care during the shakedown cruises. Frank
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Old 07-24-2018, 01:00 AM
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I think when Joe Stalin ordered a new weapon design, if it didn't work, the engineers were shot. That provided a good incentive to do it right the first time.
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Old 07-24-2018, 07:49 AM
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It also suppresses innovation.
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Old 07-24-2018, 09:23 AM
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I don't know if I've ever seen Allison Barrie before. Physically she's not my type (although not repulsive by any stretch), but if I close my eyes and listen to her talk guns, bullets, tanks, body armort, etc. I get aroused.
Is that wrong?
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Old 07-24-2018, 12:45 PM
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the only way to win.....DONT play the game.....
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Old 07-24-2018, 05:21 PM
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I have seen the term "Lethality Components" popping up more frequently in various military websites, instead of things like "guns" and "rockets"

For those interested in such matters, the Army has recently stood up its new "Futures Command" to be set up in Austin Texas: U.S. Army STAND-TO! | Army Futures Command Location Announcement
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