Admin Edit:
I deleted 26/50 posts.
The topic is changes in being a cop.
If you can discuss that without going into politics, racial issues, your toilet habits, and plumbing history, have at it.


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original post-





For as long as I can recall (1992) the offical qualification target for N Z Police has been a life-sized photograph of one of the tactical firearms trainers wearing a balaclava and carrying a sawn off shotgun with scoring zones superimposed. The passs rate is 80% of shots fired as hits within the incapacitation areas, roughly the centre of mass.

About a month ago I attended my annual tactical options certification training (empty hand, handcuffs, ASP batton, O/C Spray, taser and firearms practical malfunction drills). During the day we were told that the qualification target is to be changed to a plain white with a black silhouette and scoring zones.

The reason for this change? New (millennial) graduates at the police college are objecting at shooting a real gun at the photograph of a human being!

This comes on the heels of a number of stories of recent graduates refusing to carry out supervisors instructions. This includes standing on a cordon, conducting searches at "unpleasant" sites such as rubbish tips, and even refusing to get out of a vehicle at an urgent call (domestic) until backup arrives because their tactical assessment says that it is unsafe to respond.

Now my instruction group was made up of experienced street cops, and when we heard about the change of targets we fell over laughing. If someone is refusing to shoot at a photograph of a human what will they do when they are confronted by the real thing?

Personally I am surprised the department response was to replace the photo with a silhouette. Several years ago there was a political furore over the humanoid IPSC targets which had to be changed to a, roughly, diamond shape with the same size scoring zones but no B (head) zone.

I wonder how long before we will be shooting at the B 17 target or similar with an actual score to qualify?

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View from down under

Political correctness will be the death of western civilization/culture.

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Thread Killer.

So are these issues related to excessive "sensitivity training" or is there a union in place that prevents any disciplinary action for junior employees refusing to comply with supervisors' instructions?

Maybe we need to see LEO training targets with more pronounced arms and legs so that we can practice to just wing 'em.

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- Change it back -

Range I once belonged to banned the use of any target showing bank robbers with pistols pointed at the heads of hostages, and pictured targets showing the human form and charging soldier targets. Frank

Either that, or we'll lose. As it stands now, this "fake PC culture" is getting more and more real and institutionalized, and I'd give us no better than a 60/40 chance at snapping out of it in time to win a real hardship war. And by that, I mean a war that could actually impact the USA, not something fought entirely off shore.

Having survived three deadly confrontations in my 30 years I find this VERY troublesome. If these new officers are reluctant to shoot at a human photo target they might hesitate on the street and get themselves or someone else killed. The streets are tough and unforgiving, I’m surprised that upper management is caving into them.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

Them youngin's needs a dose of simunitions training with a couple of ol troopers.


Gees...................kids these days.






.

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

I have been retired for the past thirteen years so I am sure that some things have changed since I left. However, a few years before I retired I served a few years as one of our firearms instructors. During a period of annual firearms qualification I was the shotgun instructor. I told my classes that a womans greater body mass was below the waist so the women shooters should use their legs to help deal with recoil. I told the male shooters that their greater body mass was above the waist and that they should use their arms and shoulders to help mitigate recoil. This seemed to work and everyone (almost?) was happy. After a couple of weeks I was called into the office of our civilian, no law enforcement experience or training, director. She ordered me to shut the office door and then told me that there was absolutely NO difference in men and women and I would stop creating this false difference in my instruction methods. What a dull life she must have lead.

Geeze...what a bunch of namby pambys, as William Shatner would say. It’s the internet I say! How else would your millennials learn to become as lazy as Our millennials?

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USS Brewton FF1086
SWCA#3597

You guys want, I can come over.

• Enjoys standing around, especially when it's called something tactical like "cordon"
• Does not mind "rubbish tips", has lived in New Jersey
• Will drive extra slow, thus ensuring backup will have already arrived whilst conserving fuel and avoiding vehicle damage

Domestics and mentally ill persons are some of the highest risk calls a cop can get.

It’s amazing the number of abused spouses who live their abuser so much that they will attack someone coming to their aid.

The last mentally ill person, threatening to hang himself, I attended I drew the taser and had the camera recording as I walked down the driveway. Fortunately it wasn’t needed.

12 months ago in tactical training we were presented with a domestic scenario. I said take a Glock in due to the nature of the unknown factors. Others, including supervisors dismissed my comments. During the debrief the trainers mphasised the option of taking a firearm into the dwelling.

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View from down under

I think I have solve the problem! A new will be passed requiring all criminals to wear shirts which will have a round bull-eye target on them. Then the new office will be shooting a target they are familiar with.

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Bill

Sir,

I'm interested in how you responded, both to her nonsensical assertion and to her demand. Had it been me, I might have invited her to visit the nearest clothing store to try on the men's stuff and see how she liked the fit.

Regards,
Andy

All is not lost. My old PD has had 5 OIS so far this year: 2 by old timers and three by the kids we are talking about in this thread. They came through in the clutch. Good training, and a short rein their first year turns lots of the Millennials into good cops. They have better tools, they are better educated than most of us were, have fewer prejudices, and are less likely to see force as an acceptable first response.

I remember when we changed to a qual target of a bad guy pointing a gun. Scores went down, because so many people shot at the gun and not the guy.

Our qualification targets look fairly close to this...

I think you have just reinforced my point. 60% of your shootings are by those I am concerned about, yet you say as a group millennials are less likely to use force? In most cases millennials have some difficulty with face to face communications due to livimg their lives on social media.

And if scores dropped when going to a “gun toting” target because shooters were aiming for the weapon, a natural response, what happens on the street when, not used to shooting at a target carrying a weapon, a cop is confronted by such?

The answer is obvious. Without the training in ignoring the weapon and aiming at stopping the offender they will shoot at the weapon. This results in missing the offender and in dangers to the public.

True story. One of the “new generation” cops was assigned an enquiry file where they had to interview as a suspect someone with extensive previous history. The cop planned a full raid with the full group (sergeant plus 6) with the addition of dog handlers and others.

The sergeant was asked to approve the operation and his dirstbreaponse was to ask if an attempt had been made to speak to the suspect at all. He was told it was considered too dangerous after an initial assessment.

The sergeant put the young cop in his car, drove to the address and knocked on the door which was answered by the suspect who then invited both cops in, offered them a cup of coffee before sitting down and giving a statement.

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View from down under

Question, because I iz not a cop and don't even play one on TV.

If you're being presented with that "bad guy with a gun pointed" target, isn't the correct response to move and get to cover? I mean, shooting him is great and all, but not getting shot is even better.

KiwiCop, those were all good shoots by anyone's standards, including your's or mine. I think they do better de-escalating things like domestics and disorderlys than the last couple generations of cops. They can talk, and fight, mostly the old guys fought, and then talked. They will be fine once they learn they won't get a ribbon for participation the first time they get into a bar fight and get their butts handed to them.
That target I referenced was from back in the 1990's, sorry if I was unclear.
I'm long off the streets you are still on, but I started raising police officers well over two generations ago, and we were saying the same things then that you are saying now. I guess the long view is we get the young candidates we deserve ,because they mirror the greater society, and it's up to good academies and FTOs to make cops out of them

Are you saying that there are times when you are NOT armed?

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Do you think you can move to safety FASTER than the bad guy with the drawn gun can pull the trigger?

What kind of flowers would you like me to send to your funeral?

__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

I lied. Here is our qualification target, except our “lines “ are drawn differently on his body. I call the target “mustache Mike”.

A lot of us train to shoot on the move. Also when I draw my gun it is engraved in my head to a step to the left or right while doing so. It sounds funny but th slightest movements can throw off a bad guy, especially since most of them don’t go to the shooting range to practice. With the exception of close contact shots, I think most people who get shot by bad guys are hit because the bad guy was just lucky or missed his intended target and hit someone else by mistake.

I deleted 26/50 posts.
The topic is changes in being a cop.
If you can discuss that without going into politics, racial issues, your toilet habits, and plumbing history, have at it.


from the rules-
The following topics are BANNED on this Board:
Abortion
Religion
Racial issues
Gay rights/homosexuality
General LEO bashing
Political Discussion and Comment
Do NOT participate in discussion of banned topics.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Disrupt their I-Phone service ..... they will quickly become disorientated..... and curl up on the ground in a fetal position.......

slap them on the butt with a rolled up newspaper (if you can still find one)and give them a "time out".




Philly Patriot...don't shoot.. you target is "one of us"...... he's got a revolver and it looks to be a 3" 65.....

All these millennials everyone complains about were raised by us (or by parents who were raised by us). They didn't give themselves participation trophies or decide on their own it was too scary to walk to school alone.

I do backgrounds for a local medium sized police department. I am always amazed at the quality of the applicants we get, and surprised that anyone would even want to be a cop these days. We have the luxury to be very selective, and frankly the guys and gals we get are better than a lot of my contemporaries were.

I do miss seeing cops with hair. The shaved head thing is strange to me.






Once your hair fell out, you could join the plaid coat club.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

Well, it works for guys who are losing their hair or have already gone bald. Plus, it's all part of the paramilitary look that's become so popular in police departments across the country. The shaved head, the buzz cut, the shaved/buzzed cut on sidewalls and back of the head, leaving only hair on top...it's all part of the look. Goes along with the bulked out gym rat look, enhanced by the uniform shirt tailored to fit tightly over the shoulders and biceps. It's a look designed to intimidate people.

And you could moonlight as a used car salesman after hours and on off days. Check out the guy with the plaid tie and plaid pants! Bet that tie took at least eight hours to recharge.

Or I have a buzz cut because I have had one my whole life and don’t like the feeling of hair touching my ears, I don’t feel like spending the time to do/comb my hair, and I hate sweating while having longer hair.

It’s always good to stay in shape so I don’t understand why you criticize LEOs who go to the gym. A lot more of us should go to the gym, but between work, family, and a house it’s difficult to make time. That being said we should be in reasonable shape not only because of our duties, but shift work, lack of sleep, poor eating habits, and stress beat up our bodies and overall health.

I don’t wear a traditional uniform, but if I did, I’d want to look professional. Sometimes your appearance while getting out of a car will determine the amount of respect you get even before you open your mouth.

RE: Silhouette Targets vs Realistic/Photographic Targets

I've seen the need for more realistic/scenario based training to overcome years of indoctrination. Some have never had ANY firearms exposure; some were taught NEVER to point a gun at another human (he was a hunter, grew up with toy guns but only allowed to point them at animals/objects). I remember the 1st time I looked through my scope at a real live human & could see the emotion in his eyes. It kinda took me back, but I was ready & able to take the shot. Luckily, he soon surrendered & I didn't have to.

I believe Dave Grossman talks about it in at least 2 of his books. We need to teach/learn to kill a human.

Being an old guy I grew up being taught to respect police officers. Even when they were wrong. Now days I kinda feel the shaved head paramilitary look is an intimidation technique for many police officers...and they use it as such with most citizens they have to deal with. Don't need to try to intimidate me or most people you deal with..so why do it? I'm not a cop although I did do fire investigation. Wouldn't want to be a cop 24/7. Yep dealing with the public is not an easy job. Looking(and acting) the way many cops do nowadays loses a lot of respect from law abiding people. JMHO

I'll be as brief as possible here. You see the comment I replied to above, and then you see my comments about it.

Please point out to me and any other forum member who's interested where I "criticize" anyone or where I'm being "critical" of law enforcement. Putting it as simply as I know how, you're reading something into my comment that isn't there. You're putting words in my mouth. I made no judgement on cops, whatsoever.

What I said in my reply are facts as I know them, whether you like it or agree or not.

I have five friends who are police officers in this city. It's a large city. One of them is SWAT, another is K-9. They told me more or less the same thing. I can't quote them because the language isn't acceptable on this forum. So I combined and paraphrased what they said about the haircuts and tailored uniforms. They refer to themselves as gym rats (among other things), and all agree that their appearance sometimes goes a long way to getting on top of the street punks and other hoodlums they deal with every day. Their physical appearance is imposing, and the fit of their uniforms kicks their appearance up a notch. To paraphrase one of them...he said, while pointing a finger at me, "We're the good guys to people like you. We're the bad (expletive deleted) to somebody else."

They have no reason to lie to me. That's it in a nutshell. Me being critical? No, not even in your dreams. That's all I have to say about it. Seriously.

And there is a cop smoking!!!

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Re-reading the post that I made, a bit after midnight, I was a mite too harsh. Yes, if you have enough time and it is close enough, you should seek cover or concealment.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

I do remember when most or many people smoked. Cops and firefighters both. I quit right after I retired. for the last time. 23 yrs ago. I also mostly quit carrying a gun about that time too.

When I started at the PD, I was on evening (2:45pm-10:45pm), I'd get there about 2:30 and there was one day shift officer who would usually be in the roll call room. He would be watching General Hospital, smoking a cigarette and drinking a cup of coffee.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

I did also. I had (just) enough brains to respect anyone carrying a gun and night stick.

Unless the bad guy is mentally ill I simply find it impossible to understand why people will fight with police when given an order. And then the press goes haywire when the LEO shoots the suspect.

When I was a badge toter in Alabama, there was an area nearby on the Warrior River. The good old boys that lived on the river often got into trouble. Now, it wasn't seen as a bad thing to get into trouble with the law, BUT it was considered unmanly to go peacefully. So, most of 'em would fight the po-leese.

Also, most of them that received a "donkey" whooping would not complain to the police chief about it, 'cause they felt that they had earned it.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

It already has us on life-support.

I sure can't out-draw an already drawn gun, that's for sure.

It's been proven time and again you'll perform to the level of your training. Hesitate on the range and you'll do likewise when the excrement jumps off, which could mean a good guy dies. Maybe we should have a portion of the force that mirrors the old London Bobbies, armed with a truncheon, (I jest).

As a driving instructor, firearms instructor, and speed measurement device instructor, I have been dragged on the carpet many times, for bruising the delicate feelings of new officers. The incident that stands out for me, is at my former agency we received four new hires, that had been sworn in, but had not yet attended the academy. I would as a matter of course have the new hire drive, because learning the city is instinctively easier from the drivers seat. The other three baby officers saw this, and went crying to the Lieutenant. When confronted by the Lt. about it, I told him that (1) I am the shift Sgt. and whatever happens during my shift, is my responsibility, (2) I'm a state certified driving instructor, (3) the "baby rookie" has a valid drivers license, and (4) the baby rookie has already been sworn in, so he's a cop. That didn't sit well with the Lt. and he said the Chief doesn't want me to let the new hires drive. Why didn't he just say that in the first place? The lesson that I learned about Millennial's is if one is offered an opportunity, the others will whine, and cry, until that opportunity is denied to the one, or everyone gets it, regardless of merit, or any other circumstance. They mistakenly believe that life is supposed to be about fairness, and equality of outcome, no matter the circumstances. I would have let any of the rookies drive, but they couldn't wait until the next shift. It disgusted me so badly, that I no longer spend time with rookies at all. They can learn on their own, just like I did.