Let's rename the Missouri river for where she originates; conceived from the clear head waters formed by the Gallatin, Madisen and Jefferson rivers in South Western Montana, all named by Lewis and Clark, the "Great Western Montana River", not some cheese knock off from Missouri.

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"The Dude abides"

Well that was random.

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Freedom isn't free.

Okie-Dokie ?

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John

Well, like most things, the people who were here before us named it . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I used to fish Three Forks, the head waters of the Missouri, nice area.

Sent from my LGL52VL using Tapatalk

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Don

Somebody didn't sleep well yesterday. Hope today's a good one for you.

The Great Western Montana River flows into the Mississippi River at West Alton, Missouri just doesn't sound right.

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LIVE FROM THE DAWGHOUSE

What I never understood, being a furriner, is. How do you really know wich one is really the afluent, the Mississipi or the Missouri.

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Expect the unexpected

I grew up on the Missouri and live on the Mississippi .
I'm pretty happy with the way things are.

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I like Ike.

200 miles longer than ol' Muddy which if following suit should be named the Louisiana River...

It was called the Missouri well before the head waters were even found by Europeans. Here's some history on the subject;

Missouri got its name from a Sioux Tribe called the Missouria who lived along the Missouri River and have a rich history in the river valley.

The mighty MO stretches 2,341 miles, which is just 20 miles longer than the Mississippi. Even though it is longer by just a little bit, the Missouri is considered the tributary to the Mississippi.

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"The Dude abides"

That much I know. I just don't know why.

Well, I do have a theory. Both names are native names. Given by the people who lived by the river (rivers) but didn't really knew where the river came from or where it was going to. The first Europeans there got the names from the natives, it was only much later they found out the full lenght of those bodies of water. And by then the names were already accepted.

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Expect the unexpected

profound Gulfecho, ur thinking moves us all....morning...hope ur PM goes better than ur AM.....

The most logical reason I can give you is that at the confluence the Mississippi has a significantly higher flow rate, and is significantly wider than the Missouri. The "smaller" river is usually considered as being "tributary" to the larger river.


The same argument could be made for the Ohio at it's confluence with the Mississippi just below Cairo, IL, except the Ohio is the larger of the two rivers at that point and logically the river should have been the Ohio from that point downstream.


FWIW I have always felt that the Missouri is the name the Mississippi should have had, although the Ohio probably has a stronger argument in it's favor.

You may be overthinking this

Geographers have always considered a tributary to be the river that terminated by flowing into another river.

Regardless of the names, looking at a picture of the confluence of the two rivers, it would have been obvious, even back then without the benefit of aerial photography, which river flowed into which and was the tributary here.

Attached Images

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Considering "Old Muddy" is not exactly a "straight arrow". I wouldn't be so sure.

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Expect the unexpected

I think there's a Canadian River which flows through Oklahoma and Texas IIRC. Somebody could complain about the name of that one...too.

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Smith. And Wesson. And Me!

...muddy Mississippi left...busy Ohio right...we have spent the night in our camper in the campground at the confluence a couple of times...



At the confluence the the Ohio river is considerably bigger than the Mississippi (volume flow rate 7,960 m³/s vs 5,897 m³/s), indeed it appears as the larger river. This evidence led us to the first question: why is the river called Mississippi even though the Ohio tributary has a larger outflow at the confluence? Despite being the mass/volume flow rate one of the criteria that could be used to define a main stream and a tributary in this case the Mississippi is longer than the Ohio river at the confluence (2,000 km vs 1,579 km), so this is probably one of the reason why the main river is still considered the Mississippi. The river length is indeed one of the main criteria used to define a main steam, together with the drainage basin area.

Anyway, going upstream the Mississippi flow, we face the reverse situation reaching another critical point of this river system: the confluence with the Missouri river in St Louis (Missouri State). The Mississippi looks bigger in terms of flow rate (5,796 m³/s vs 2,445 m³/s) whereas the Missouri is longer than the Mississippi itself (3,767 km vs almost 2000 km). That’s the opposite of the Cairo’s case where the Ohio played the part of the richer but shorter river.

Then the question: why is the Mississippi considered the main river despite the Missouri is longer than the first one and so having a drainage water basin three times larger? Length, mass, drainage area, distance from the sea, angle of impact are all criteria used to define a main stream, with the first one as the common used. But cultural and historical traditions are dominant over geographical theory and this could be the case. Indeed Mississippi is very deep-rooted in many histories and legends of the american and Indian native culture since the first settlements and explorations. When the first cartographers and explorers reached the confluence the Missouri’s source was probably still unknown and hided in the Far West, just like its major length and its right to be considered the main stream of the river system.

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A Country Boy Can Survive

I do believe the naming is entirely cultural/historical.

All the comparative information given so far pertaining to accurate length, drainage area, water flow etc. was not available for some centuries after the Spanish in the 1500s and then the French in the 1600s first explored the Mississippi and established it as a known geographical feature for Europeans, long before the Missouri, so I don’t think there was ever a chance for anyone to sit down and say “Well, let’s look at all the data and decide which river REALLY deserves to be top dog.”

Take in contrast the Nile. There is no simple “Nile” above the confluence of the White Nile and the Blue Nile at Khartoum; both are considered tributaries which join together co-equal to form the Nile that flows on through Egypt. The reason is almost certainly that both were explored about the same time in the 19th century and neither had a “historical advantage”.

While comparisons are being made with other major river systems let's say that historical precedent has little to do with it. a good example is the Colorado River of the West (as opposed to the Texas river of the same name).

Until 1921 the river from its point of origin to the confluence with the Green River in Southern Utah was known as the Grand River. It gave its name to both Grand Valley in Colorado and Grand County Utah. In 1921 the decision, for political reasons, was made by Congress to re-name the Grand River the Colorado for its entire length.

My point is that there is historic precedent for re-naming a major river, though there would unlikely be any rational reason for doing so in the Ohio, Mississippi, Missouri venue.

One word to the original poster: "Decaf"

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Music/Sports/Beer fan

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A Country Boy Can Survive

Did you know:

Each of the suits on a deck of cards represents the four major pillars of the economy in the middle ages: heart represented the Church, spades represented the military, clubs represented agriculture, and diamonds represented the merchant class.

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Un-Reconstructed Southerner

I don't know much about rivers, never understand the interest in the hula hoop and I still wear cargo pants. I do know that Almond Joy got nuts, Mounds don't. That's about the extent of my worldly knowledge.

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"The Dude abides"

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Music/Sports/Beer fan

Good one Rusty

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USS Brewton FF1086
SWCA#3597

A penny doubling every day for 30 days turns into over 5 million.

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Music/Sports/Beer fan

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A Country Boy Can Survive

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Music/Sports/Beer fan

Since this turned to music.

There's always two sides to a story.
YouTube

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Expect the unexpected

NW Arkansas has an Illinois River which flows into Oklahoma and
then empties into the Arkansas River.
Oh, Oklahoma named a section of the N. Canadian River the
Oklahoma River as it flows through OK. City. Like anyone
cares.

Sure. Go ahead and do it.

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Foster Positivity.

OP is struggling with what is referred to as a "First World" problem.

I felt compelled:

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Music/Sports/Beer fan

The Arkansas River flows through where I live. The locals pronounce it Ar"kansas" as opposed to "Arkansaw". Then to top it off there is a Little Arkansas River which merges with the Arkansas River in downtown Wichita, Ks. and then, I assume, becomes the Arkansas River again and flows into the Mississippi River.
If I wasn't confused before I am now.

Could this possibly rival “ thread drift”?

Upstream from Pueblo, CO the Arkansas is a fast flowing mountain river.
When you cross it on I-25 in Pueblo, it’s already out on the flat land and laid now.
Upstream like between Buena Vista and Salida, it’s a fast flowing stream with lots of river running boaters.
I strongly encourage you down stream folks to go up there and experience your Arkansas in a fast flowing state.
Down river, near La Junta, CO they raise world class cantaloupes.

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NRA LIFE MEMBER

There seems to be some debate about the Mississippi's length.

Anyway I've been to the Mississippi's headwaters at Lake Itasca State Park in Minnesota. You an actually walk across the Mississippi there which will get you called a liar in my home town of Memphis where it's a mile wide.

Attached Images

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LIVE FROM THE DAWGHOUSE

Believe it or not, I gave up caffeine years ago!

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"The Dude abides"

I don’t know whether I’ve watched The Godfather or The Outlaw Joisey Wales more.

only four of the great lakes boarder Michigan.

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Carpriver.

Come on, guys, this is serious stuff. I know, because I have a degree in geography. I am outraged because the Arkansas River heads not too far from here. Its a real river. Probably should be the Colorado. Oh, wait, there's already a Colorado River heading in Colorado. Uh oh, Dad grew up on the Colorado River in Texas. I am so confused. Drifting off ...

Edit to add: its too late for caffeine, but not JD. And really, I'm an expert.

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Some collect art; I shoot it!

Does anybody know where Choccolocco Creek is?

Have a blessed day,

Leon

No sir! Tain't fair.

Ownership of the Ohio River - Ohio History Central

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Music/Sports/Beer fan

Every few years someone in the Legislature wants to rename the Missouri the Montana from its' confluence at Three Forks to the Yellowstone at the MT/ND border. A bottle gets passed around and they move on. I doubt it will happen in my lifetime.

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Front sight and squeeze

The Chocolate Creek, as I recall, runs through The Big Rock Candy Mountains:

"Where all the jails are made of tin
And you can walk right out again,
As soon as you are in
There ain't no short-handled shovels,
No axes, saws or picks,
I'ma goin' to stay
Where you sleep all day,
Where they hung the Turk
That invented work
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains

I'll see you all this coming Fall
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains"

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"The Dude abides"