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10-24-2018, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rags
If you had to ask you wouldn't understand the answer.
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The DOJ has a 2-5 year (sometimes longer or shorter depending on the judge) reeducation program to help with that understanding. They are also happy to help one understand wire and mail fraud and I bet they would LOVE to pick up some firearms cases as well. I suspect that would open up a whole new set of laws to help them educate the public.
Former Owner Of Mastro Auctions Sentenced To 20 Months In Federal Prison In Shill-Bidding Scam | USAO-NDIL | Department of Justice
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Last edited by 6518John; 10-24-2018 at 07:54 AM.
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10-24-2018, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rags
If you had to ask you wouldn't understand the answer.
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Or accept the answer.
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10-25-2018, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rags
If you had to ask you wouldn't understand the answer.
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Some think I want to do something immoral or that I do not know right from wrong. Not true. I know shill bidding or other price manipulation is wrong. However, I thought that maybe if an item was on consignment it is considered part of the deal that the original owner is allowed to bid on the item.
From the above responses it is clear that bidding on one's own item put up for consignment auction is not considered okay by anybody.
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10-26-2018, 01:02 AM
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I was raised that a laborer or service was worth the wage or price. The auction house is doing you a service so, pay for it. If you're afraid the product will sell for less than what you want, set a reserve price.
An actual auction house will often let you remove the reserve if the bid is not going to get over it. This way you can change your mind and accept a lower bid. On line, the reserve is fixed and not usually removable.
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10-26-2018, 01:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e3mrk
Like everything else,Its legal until you get caught.
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I've heard a lot of people say stuff like this and it's just wrong. The legality of an action is not dependent on whether the perpetrator gets caught.
This type of thinking is why we have a lot of crime these days. Too many think it's OK as long as they don't get caught. If people just respected each other's rights to their own property, we wouldn't need locks. And, no, it's not "keeping honest people honest." If they were honest, they wouldn't need to be kept honest.
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10-26-2018, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bushmaster1313
I know shill bidding or other price manipulation is wrong. However, I thought that maybe if an item was on consignment it is considered part of the deal that the original owner is allowed to bid on the item.
.
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Have you, by chance, ever argued about "what the meaning of
is, is"???
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10-26-2018, 10:43 AM
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I would not do it, just doesn't seem right. Got to let your conscience be your guide I guess. That darn mirror I have to look into every day keeps me from that sort of thing.
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10-26-2018, 11:17 AM
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“Consignors are not allowed to bid on their own merchandise nor have any agent bid on their behalf. If the Auctioneer recognizes such bidding or is advised of the same, he may withdraw any or all lots consigned by the offender and will publicly recognize that consignor.”
I watch and sometimes participate in auctions. I see this sort of disclaimer often
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10-26-2018, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bushmaster1313
Some think I want to do something immoral or that I do not know right from wrong. Not true. I know shill bidding or other price manipulation is wrong. However, I thought that maybe if an item was on consignment it is considered part of the deal that the original owner is allowed to bid on the item.
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I think you've received the answer to your question, but I have one; why did you think this auction is different from others? It's a serious question and the answer may help some of us down the road. I mean, if you already knew that price manipulation was frowned on, what is it about this particular auction that made you think it was different?
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10-26-2018, 11:38 AM
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I recently went through the same dilemma. Sent a very nice revolver to a great dealer to list on G.B. for me. This dealer did an EXCELLENT job, but the gun went for $100.00 less than I paid for it. I was tempted to make a “proxy” bid. I DID Not do so, as it would be unethical. I’m at the age, I understand money can be replaced, but my reputation can never be replaced.
Gentlemen Don't get involved in shill bidding.
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10-26-2018, 03:48 PM
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The online auctions have hyped the process. The top bid in any auction is called winning bid. The statement " I won this gun on
Xx online" makes buyer feel like he was a " winner". He may have
paid double, but he's still a winner. In laymans trems you didn't win anything, you were the guy willing to pay the most for the item.
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10-26-2018, 04:47 PM
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I would have to say it is OK, only if you win the bid.
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10-26-2018, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bushmaster1313
I was wondering if maybe the rule against shill bidding did not apply to items on consignment.
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14. CONSIGNORS: Consignors are not permitted to bid on their own items. This is called "shill bidding" and is illegal by Florida Auction Law standards. By placing your item up for auction, you have agreed to sell by the terms of the consignment agreement.
This is about as clear as it can be stated!! Be Safe,
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10-27-2018, 10:46 AM
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Not much more to say is there?
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10-27-2018, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve912
Have you, by chance, ever argued about "what the meaning of
is, is"???
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No
I was wondering if because it is on consignment the dynamic is different and the original owner has the right to "buy it back" if the price is too low.
I could be mistaken, but isn't it the case that when a bank forecloses it can bid at the forced sale if the price is too low?
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10-27-2018, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bushmaster1313
No
I was wondering if because it is on consignment the dynamic is different and the original owner has the right to "buy it back" if the price is too low.
I could be mistaken, but isn't it the case that when a bank forecloses it can bid at the forced sale if the price is too low?
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At least with deeds of trust in Maryland, at the foreclosure sale the bidding starts at the amount owed to the lender/noteholder. The overwhelming majority of the sales ended up with the lender/noteholder acquiring the property, as the professional bidders were looking for bargains. I was a substitute trustee for purposes of foreclosure on a boatload of defaulted deeds of trust, and since I was the low man on the totem pole I went out on most of the sales with the auctioneer.
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10-27-2018, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercs
“Consignors are not allowed to bid on their own merchandise nor have any agent bid on their behalf. If the Auctioneer recognizes such bidding or is advised of the same, he may withdraw any or all lots consigned by the offender and will publicly recognize that consignor.”
I watch and sometimes participate in auctions. I see this sort of disclaimer often
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All of the above posts appreciated
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10-31-2018, 12:25 PM
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I was at a recent auction and had positioned myself directly in front of the auctioneer with a clear line of sight but in the back of the room so I could see everyone. I had made several purchases and failed on several. The auctioneer made frequent eye contact to see what my intent was. It was getting to the latter part of the auction and there was one lot left that I was interested in. When the auctioneer made eye contact, I raised my hand and he took my bid. One of his "ring men" off to the right of the room yelled that he also had a bid, the auctioneer came back to me and I repeated by raising my hand. The "ring man" again yelled almost immediately and I could not determine who was bidding against me. The auctioneer again came back to me and I declined to bid. He ended the auction and asked the "ring man" who he had. The "ring man" pointed to me. I looked at the auctioneer and asked if he made it common practice to have someone bid against themselves. He apologized immediately and asked if I would like to purchase the item at the lower bid. I declined and left the auction after paying for what I had purchased. I made a mental note to never attend another of their auctions. Even if it was un-intentional, it showed a level of incompetence that I am willing to forgive given the $$$ involved.
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10-31-2018, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublesharp
Not the same but similar. When my parents personal property was auctioned online by Everything but the House I was the executor. I also bid and bought items from the sale, as did other family members. The auctioneer received the usual commission and the items were paid for in full at auction's close. This kept things clean among family and I don't consider it unethical but it is kind of apple to oranges comparing to bidding up one's own merchandise.
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Totally different scenario. Your example is totally legitimate in my opinion. You aren't trying to hose someone. You actually want the item you're bidding on. That's cool.
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