If a cop tells you to put a gun down, you're a nanosecond away from being shot. Not a wise move to spend that nanosecond saying "yes sir" or putting the gun down - you drop the gun quicker than you'd drop a red hot rock. Then you might say "Yes sir, right away, sir".

Within your rights to, bang babang bang, ARGHH. Having a gun in hand when cops show up increases the odds of you being shot. Refusing their commands in a situation like this practically garrantees it. WITHIN HIS RIGHTS AND DEAD???

I would be very angry at having my firearms confiscated, but I will not be shooting it out with the police or military. No such law in Texas yet. As mentioned above, not knowing the facts as to whether he actually complied, I know nothing about this case.

What you and Muss described as probable outcomes should scare everybody.

I see this as a very bad law, putting LEO's in increased danger and jeopardizing their safety even further, not to mention law abiding citizens as well. Bottom line is now and always has been, when an officer tells you to put your weapon down it is a good idea to do so. Greatly increases your chances to have breakfast at Waffle House tomorrow!

you guys can be critical all you want but the fact stands that gary willis was a martyr.
.

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susie

I've had a horrible thought. I've been raving how great it is to have businesses and factories going up all over the place and bringing people to the area as well as retirees. A great many of them are from 'other' states, possibly changing the demographics. Is this going to backfire on us like it did in Austin and in Colorado? All I need is for my state to be awash in gun grabbers. I'm only saying this in the context of gun laws. This thread will be locked or gone if we start talking the 'p' word. For some reason that happens to my threads a lot so let's be careful. PLEASE!

PS: Though our employment and everything here is doing so well, the TRAFFIC in the area is horrendous. Somebody 'built' a ready-made town between us and Summerville called 'Nexton' and people are moving in like crazy. They just put in a corridor from the interstate to the 'industrial' area on highway 176 around Caine Bay. Anybody familiar with the area would know it as the road to St. Stephens.

PPS: The same thing is happening above Mt. Pleasant, right next door to Charleston. The place is full of money and the traffic is swear word producing.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

This should put to rest the idea that cops "would never enforce something as unconstitutional as gun confiscation."

Only it won't be "confiscation." It will be "getting guns away from people deemed dangerous."

Pretty sure nobody here knows Gary Willis's actual mental health state at the time of the incident, and certainly nobody here knows whether or not he actually committed a felony before the police showed up to enforce the order of the court. That doesn't make him a martyr . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Yep, what’s the red line you cross to be deemed dangerous? Argument with a family member, posting or visiting certain websites, ???

Wow. Good discussion. A lot that hadn't entered my mind.

PS Maybe he will be a martyr, but as of now, we don't know anything about him at all outside of the fact that he was red flagged and subsequently killed. He'll have to meet my guidelines as to what comprises a good martyr, beside the fact that the only good martyr is a dead martyr.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I HOPE there is no wife/family left behind to appreciate his martyrdom.

what we know is that gary willis fought n died defending his right to bear arms.
a noble act.

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susie

I think that the actual introduction of a gun confiscation act in a State is worthy of discussion. The reason it is 'simplistic' is that we don't know anything.

My 'worry' is that this can be the wedge in the crack that opens further restrictions. And I've been around too many rabidly anti gun people to know that they'll keep chipping away at the 2A and I want to stop them. So far we (collectively) have held most of their proposals off.

Now your last sentence I wholeheartedly agree with.

PS: The post that I made a week or so ago came out as the result of a 'sensible discussion' with a gun grabber. I told him that it was well thought out, but still stepped on the 2A in two ways. He then asked me to clarify something, which I did. He deleted my post, with his reply worded in such a way that said I didn't answer his question, then he blocked me from answering. These are the people that 'worry' me.


NRA membership is encouraged on this forum so I believe that it is a pertinent issue here.

MODERATORS: Since this thread has turned into a discussion on actual instead of proposed legislation, should it be moved to the 2A board??? Thanks.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

DO WHAT HE SAY, DO WHAT HE SAY. A martyr without all the virgins just stinks. JK, hold the flame throwers.

so, under what conditions is it right to refuse to give up your guns?
is it never, just because the state has overwhelming force?

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susie

That is a decision that everyone must make for him/herself . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

As much as I hate to bring this up, Mr. Gary Willis was not a Martyr, he was a hot headed fool who chose to pick a fight and threw down on two cops. He made his play, knowing what the outcome would be. I'm sorry that the man died, but he brought it on himself.

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Always Stay Strong!

Are you willing to give up your life to make a political statement?
I always believed that a wise person chose their battles carefully, and generally only started a fight they believed they could win.

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Always Stay Strong!

Then live (or die) with the consequences. This guy made a poor choice IMO. Did he leave the cops an alternative?

If you really think the dotGov is coming to take your guns away from you, then you should already know that they don't need a law to kill you.

Midlothian police officer who fatally shot security guard Jemel Roberson placed on administrative leave, officials say - Daily Southtown

IMHO these "red flag" laws are meant to short circuit due process, the 2A, they're the equivalent of "protective custody" in the Third Reich and they're meant to create a Surveillance and Snitch society.

Mr. Willis was 1302'ed (MD's Red Flag Law) by his Sister over a dispute over the care of their mother. Complaint was filed approx. 2300 hrs. Police show up at 0500 the next day to serve. Mr. Willis answered the door with a handgun (after Daylight savings time, it's dark), initially put the handgun down, was informed of the purpose of the visit, and picked up the gun. One of the officer's was struggling with Mr. Willis and the gun discharged, at that time the backup officer fired killing Mr. Willis.

1. Poor decision on Mr. Willis' part to pick up the gun. Don't know the intent or if the shot was intentional. But didn't give the backup officer much choice.

2. Extremely poor tactics on the officer's part not to control the known weapon before proceeding with service.

3. Alcohol was probably involved, police had been to the residence earlier the night before over the family dispute (alcohol was noted) about the mother's care, and this action (1302) was probably suggested by the police to the sister then.

BTW - In the MD law, the reporting party is protected from civil/criminal legal action as long as they claim "Good Faith". I.e you can lie your ... off, as long as you say "that's what I believed at the time"

While Mr. Willis's actions brought on his own fate, this law is rife for misuse by teed off family members and soon to be ex's!! Who not only don't face any repercussions, they are specifically protected from them.

Considering how easy it is to get a restraining order [he said she said only be the first one to file] and the permanence of the order it follows a red Flag order should not take much to acquire. Does one have the right to read the order, ask for his attorney before such is served? As to the person that said "What guns" I believe the house would have been reduced to an un-livable state if a search for guns was performed. They will do more than check under the bed and in the desk drawer.

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Front sight and squeeze

That's not what Good Faith means.

And here's the lesson: pick the people you are close with with care, treat them humanely and calmly, don't drink, and when the police say, "hello, I'm here to secure your weapons" don't reach for a gun, get a lawyer.

Anything somebody decides to come up with.

...than this being help up as a victory for gun controls.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Yeah right, try to prove that's not what it means "beyond a reasonable doubt" against a statute that grants immunity for just "good faith"

Sent from my LG-G710 using Tapatalk

Regardless of the situation, if LEO's tell you to put your gun down, do it!! Comply, comply, comply...if you feel you have been mistreated, there are many procedures in place for redress.

This will only get worse.

He was confronted early in the morning. Anyone would be on their guard. He had no criminal history and didn't have a diagnosed mental issue. In my opinion, they were attempting to seize his property without a legal warrant.

Here we have armed "authorities" trying to seize property from a person who has done no harm and committed no crime. It's that what the 2nd and 4th amendments are for? Isn't it his right to defend his person and property?

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Freedom isn't free.

i repeat. gary willis was a martyr n hero.
he died defending his second amendment rights.
the seizure was unconstitutional n he was within his rights.
his only fault is that he didn;t practice enow.

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susie

I will say this. The supposedly Republican Governor of Maryland pushed for this law, and signed it literally surrounded by The Moms who Get No Action. With a smile on his face.
In the first month there have been 114 Red Flag orders applied for, in Maryland, a small state. No one has reported on how many have been granted.
Like reported above, the cops came, and interacted with the deceased the previous night, and left without incident. At 5:17 AM, the cops were banging at his door. I would answer my door armed at that hour as well.
Remember this. This man had not been accused of a crime, and the police were not there to arrest him. They were there to seize his property with no trace of due process what so ever. Seems to me that this is blatantly unconstitutional.
I do not blame the cops really. Governor Hogan and the anti gun MGA are entirely to blame here. They do have blood on their hands.

Not sure what ‘he didn;t practice enow.’ means but I truly hope it’s not what I think.

I’ll probably take some flak for this, but...
It all comes down to making a choice between your guns or your family. If I was put in a similar situation as Mr. Willis, there is no way in hell I’m going to throw my life away and go down in a blaze of glory in a gunfight with LEOs over something that can be fought out in a court of law. Just remember that you’re not just throwing your life away, you’re bringing extreme hardship on your family, not to mention the families of any officers that you may have killed. Can you imagine how your wife and kids would be treated after you did something like that? My kids go to school with many LEOs kids, they have birthday parties and sleep overs with them. Several officers have known my wife since they went to school together. I’ll say it again: the officers are not there on their own volition trying to take your guns, they are just the messengers and enforcers. Your fight is at a later date with the courts. And so they damage your guns! So what! Guns are just inanimate objects that can be replaced. I would rather lose my guns than bring that on my family. My opinion of Mr. Willis was that he did a very foolish thing and did not help further our cause at all; conversely he may have damaged it.

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USS Brewton FF1086
SWCA#3597

Public and internet polls are purposely posing the questions in way that would suggest we are all in favor of these red flag enforcements. "For their own safety" appears to be justification around here. That can mean literally anything, and when police actually come to your door people overreact easily, making themselves fit the description. We have a menacing law, and a neighbor could easily bring the police down on you.

This case and MD red flag law is discussed at length in the 2nd Amendment sub-forum.

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John 1:17
NRA Life Benefactor

i see most of you would surrender your arms without a fight.
looks like it will be easy to disarm this country when they decide to do so.

sad.

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susie

Yes, very sad isn't it? That's how we got where we are now.

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Freedom isn't free.

Below find Mr. Willis's obituary. Hopefully, he has found peace. Interestingly (only to me, maybe), it makes no mention of a traditional job, unless his playing guitar amounted to an actual career, which it generally doesn't. It further contains what I think to be more than one clue to the investigation of this incident.

Obituary for Gary Jay Willis | Fink Funeral Home

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I guess what has me the most curious is the emphasis on confiscation the guns of (assumingly) law abiding citizens in the overall mix.

Shouldn’t a name on the list of known gang members be an automatic red flag order? If so, there are no news reports that I’m aware of about police having gone to conduct any confiscations among them.

To be a martyr requires sacrifice. This guy sacrificed nothing, will be unremembered except as a bad memory for the poor LEO that has to live with defending his life by killing someone that was trying to kill him.

If you are suggesting that killing LEOs is preferable to court fights, then you should be disarmed. We are a nation of laws, not of terrorism.

I live in a rural area, all of my closest neighbors are well armed, I may have firearms as well (barring an unfortunate boating accident). This seems to be a good thing for our immediate area, as burglary incidents are relatively rare compared similarly situated areas in our county. That being said ones 2a rights only extend to the point where they present a clear danger to another’s safety (a very important right).

Just as people abdicate their right to freedom by certain acts or behaviors so may their 2a rights be suspended when they violate the rights of others.

I am glad that I don’t have to be the one who decides when that line is crossed , but there cases where action must be taken.

We may never know all the factors in the Gary Willis case, so I will neither judge him a martyr or fool.

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Jim in Iowa

I find that interesting as well. Usually one’s career figures prominently in their obituary.

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USS Brewton FF1086
SWCA#3597