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Old 11-10-2018, 10:32 PM
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Default I hope there was a very good reason.....

I hope there was a very good reason for the Ferndale, MD police to confiscate a gun from a man on a 'red flag' order. When they confronted him, he put the gun down, but when they tried to take it, he tried to shoot and they ended up killing him. The reason for the 'red flag' order wasn't given.

This may be something that people on this board are interested in. Debate: 'red flag' law, method of carrying out confiscation, did the man have to die?

It seems that if police tell you to put down your gun, you need to do it, or else. Is it different if their only intent is to TAKE your gun? Still foolish to resist. I suppose the 'American way' is to take it up with the courts. But how long do you have to be without a gun? What were the reasons for the order in the first place? Were they justified? It seems that the 'procedure' for confiscation puts the citizen in a great position to get killed.

I guess in the history of law enforcement, the police have been charged with disarming citizens for no other reason than to disarm them. So surely they have the legal authority to do so. What it somebody that just 'didn't like guns' called the police on this guy. This sounds like the same bill that was proposed in Utah to take guns from citizens that other reported as risky.
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Old 11-10-2018, 10:48 PM
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Whatever the reason, LE officer tells you to put it down, it be best you do it, then go from there. They have to enforce the law. Sad situation but this is all I have to say.
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Old 11-10-2018, 11:04 PM
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If the original post represented the Maryland statute at all fairly, which is unlikely, then there is little similarity to the failed Utah statute!

As filed the Utah bill contained numerous safeguards favoring the citizen. An allegation by anyone not directly connected to the individual could not prevail in having that persons guns seized. It really appeared to be very logical and well thought out legislation!

Your first point is exactly correct! In the vast majority of cases if an individual confronted by police would simply COMPLY! You might not like it, but if the officer is wrong you do have recourse, as long as you cooperated! And any case where a citizen has ended up dead, the vast majority have taken actions themselves which caused this outcome!
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Old 11-10-2018, 11:07 PM
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It’s hard telling what the reason was for the order, and equally hard telling if the killing could have been avoided. Maybe serving the order on the man when he was out in public, away from his guns? Maybe a little “tactical creativity” might have saved his life?

Whatever the case may be, he shouldn’t have resisted the cops with a gun in his hand and instead just let a lawyer handle it for him. He put himself in a no-win situation.
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Old 11-10-2018, 11:13 PM
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Ya don't mess with a LEO when it comes to guns.

Long story cut short... Back when I was married I came home one day to find the usual ambulance, fire truck, and multi police cars in front of my house. Fire truck had the driveway blocked so I pulled my Jeep thru the yard into the driveway.

Instantly surrounded by extremely irate police officers. They asked me who I was, and what I thought I was doing. Not in those word thou. Told them I lived here, and they said why are we supposed to believe that. Asked them if I could get my wallet, to show them my ID.

Handed them my licence. and carry permit. They got real serious then, one opened the Jeep door and told me to get out. Then he asked me to hand him my weapon. I put my hands on the back of my head and told him it was on my right hip, and he was welcome to take it.

No way in the world I was gonna reach for my gun surrounded by them. I'm sure I would have been ventilated if I had.

The cop that took my Glock. cleared it and put it down the front of his belt. After everyone settled down they were pretty cool to me.
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Old 11-10-2018, 11:14 PM
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An officer is only doing his job so he can go home to his family every night. Whatever the reason, always comply with an officer. Your beef is not with him, but with those above him. You will have your day in court. No gun is worth losing your life over and depriving a family of their father.
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Old 11-10-2018, 11:17 PM
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Either put it down or start shooting. The choice is yours, along with the consequences.
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Old 11-10-2018, 11:24 PM
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Appears as though the deceased sealed his own fate when .... as you said .... "he tried to shoot".

If the red flag reason was mental instability ..... would confiscation be better handled by asking him to bring a gun to court or the police department? Yeah ..... NO ..... someone needs to go GET the gun.

Regardless, loss of life is always sad.
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Old 11-10-2018, 11:30 PM
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From what I can find on the Internet, the deceased (Gary Willis) did not comply with the court order when served, and struggled with one of two LEOs when the officer tried to disarm Willis. Willis reportedly fired a shot, whereupon the second officer shot and killed Willis.

While I'm not convinced the news reports are complete, in general, 'tis a bad idea to resist, and moreso in MD. If that seems a bit much, the linked article cites the Anne Arundel police chief as expanding their storage space for the increased number of weapons they anticipate seizing. Mr Willis lived in Anne Arundel county.

The same article states that MD's red flag law is the broadest in the nation in who can petition for an order.

Not gonna get into the "was this necessary" discussion, but I don't miss MD one bit.

https://www.capital-gazette.com/news...824-story.html
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Old 11-11-2018, 12:20 AM
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Put the gun down and do what the nice officers tell you to do. Plenty of time to argue the matter peacefully in front of a judge later on.
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Old 11-11-2018, 12:43 AM
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once the police have the gun, it would be lots cheaper to buy a new one, hiring a lawyer would cost as much as a dozen guns.
i'm not practicing now but i think a fee of $3000 would be acceotable, unless it was just an administrative hearing.
the guy was a poor marksman, but i feel sympathy for him.
many of us might resist if the govt came to disarm us.
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Old 11-11-2018, 01:35 AM
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I'm old and tired and cranky, but not suicidal. If I did want to off myself, suicide by cop is unreliable. If I am ordered to put down or hand over a gun, it will be "Yes sir, right away, sir."

I fear Mr. Willis could not have been in his right mind.
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Old 11-11-2018, 02:07 AM
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i guess ''take my gun from my cold dead hands'' isn't rea;?
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Old 11-11-2018, 08:48 AM
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What it somebody that just 'didn't like guns' called the police on this guy.
The instructor of my concealed weapons class said a number of times: don't tell anyone, not even your "best" friend that you carry, nor what kind of gun you carry. It takes one phone call from that former "best" friend to the police, telling them that you pulled your "S&W snubnose model 36 with the fancy grips from the concealment pocket of his jacket," and threatened her, for you to end up in jail trying to deny the whole thing.

Or, like this case, shot dead for thinking too much of yourself when the police come knocking.
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Old 11-11-2018, 08:55 AM
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i guess ''take my gun from my cold dead hands'' isn't real?
Only to a patriot.
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Old 11-11-2018, 08:59 AM
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i guess ''take my gun from my cold dead hands'' isn't rea;?
Pretty sure that's what happened here. Seems real . . .
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Old 11-11-2018, 10:05 AM
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i guess ''take my gun from my cold dead hands'' isn't rea;?
Only if you want to be cold and dead for real.

As a very wise man told me, years ago. “you can do anything you want to do, as long as you are willing to pay the price for doing it.” In this case the deceased paid just about the highest price someone can pay.
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Old 11-11-2018, 10:22 AM
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It sounds like the order to remove the firearms was correct in this case. He confronted the officers with a firearm and then refused to comply with orders to surrender the firearm and even fired a round. As an attorney, I believe this person, or any person, would not have his firearms returned after confronting the officers and firing a shot. The shooter would have proven the necessity to prevent him from owning firearms. Had he cooperated and not armed himself, perhaps he would get the firearms back. This is not a situation where all the people were being disarmed. That would be a horse of a different color.
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Old 11-11-2018, 11:00 AM
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His actions proved that whoever reported him was right. Sad.

Yet, This could have been someone who just didn't like guns reporting one of us.

I can't speak for all here but I dang sure wouldn't try to resist the police. Those guys and gals want to go home after their shift, most have family at home. I put myself in their shoes and he woulda been shot too. Sad.
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Old 11-11-2018, 12:08 PM
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from original post:
"When they confronted him, he put the gun down, but when they tried to take it, he tried to shoot and they ended up killing him."

Seems to say it all, regardless of why they confronted him to begin with.
It will be interesting to learn the "rest of the story"
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Old 11-11-2018, 12:53 PM
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I agree that you should not resist a cop. But once they take your guns, getting them back is neither simple or cheap. From what I am reading the man only had one gun. Suppose he was like many on this forum and had several. They might need a truck to take all of them. I had a co-worker that had his guns confiscated in Maryland. It was totally unjustified and it took him several years and thousands of dollars to get them back. He told me how the police handcuffed him and made him watch while they searched his house and threw all of his guns on the sidewalk in front of his house. Laughing at him the whole time. He said they were all damaged and rusted when he got them back. I do not remember all of the details but I know it started when his father got sick and he called an ambulance. One of the fireman saw a box on his porch. It was an old army surplus grenade box. It was missing the lid and his father had been using it for storage. He was sitting in the hospital with his father when the police came for him. He is dead now, but his view of the police was never the same. Just something to think about when your neighbor sends the police to your door and you watch them throw your registered magnum out the window. That is one reason why I moved out of Maryland.
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Old 11-11-2018, 01:01 PM
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eventually, confiscation will be tried in many places.
i'm real sorry now that i open carry.
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Old 11-11-2018, 01:22 PM
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A year or so back, in Reno Nev., there was a call placed to thePD
that a man was causing a disturbance.

When they got to the scene, a man in camo was standing on the sidewalk
with a shotgun in his hands with folks and small children all around.

I have no idea what the call was about or what he did, but I remember
the tv news stating that the officers asked him to put down the shotgun and he refused.
He was hit by 19 bullets.

Not all people can think straight or act normal, 100% of the time.
Red Flags mean that a yellow one is not good enough............
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Old 11-11-2018, 01:35 PM
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Note that the "Red Flag" laws can hold many pitfalls for an otherwise innocent gun owner. They basically suspend one's constitutional rights without due process.
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Old 11-11-2018, 03:47 PM
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The guy should not have come to door in this case with a gun. He should have hide them and say .Guns what Guns. Sad but may have still been breathing
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Old 11-11-2018, 03:57 PM
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Not knowing the exact circumstances in the Maryland case, I can't say who was more to blame for the shooting.
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Old 11-11-2018, 04:02 PM
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Note that the "Red Flag" laws can hold many pitfalls for an otherwise innocent gun owner. They basically suspend one's constitutional rights without due process.
"The details behind the issuance of a confiscation order against Willis have not been reported. All that is known is that a niece said one of her aunts requested the order."

Pretty scary stuff. I wonder if the "details" will ever be released.

"Maryland’s red flag law took effect October 1 and law enforcement predicts over 1,300 confiscation orders will be issued by the end of the year."

That's an awful lot of confiscation orders.
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Old 11-11-2018, 04:24 PM
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LE has been put in an awful situation by those who passed these flawed laws.

Last edited by ladder13; 11-11-2018 at 04:29 PM. Reason: Poor choice of words
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Old 11-11-2018, 05:18 PM
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Note that the "Red Flag" laws can hold many pitfalls for an otherwise innocent gun owner. They basically suspend one's constitutional rights without due process.
Including due process! The whole upshot of these laws is that the person who is the object of the proceeding doesn't even know it is going on until the cops show up at his door demanding his valuable property that he supposedly has the right to possess as guaranteed by the Bill of Rights.
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Old 11-11-2018, 05:24 PM
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"All that is known is that a niece said one of her aunts requested the order."
Wouldn't that mean one of his sisters?
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Old 11-11-2018, 05:26 PM
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Including due process!
That's a question for the courts to decide. Has there been any success in challenging them in court?

Courts are where we get due process defined.
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Old 11-11-2018, 05:27 PM
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Make no mistake about what and where these “red flag” laws are about or where they’re headed. And it ain’t good.

That’s all I have to say about that.
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Old 11-11-2018, 05:39 PM
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Wouldn't that mean one of his sisters?
Or a sister-in-law.
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Old 11-11-2018, 05:58 PM
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What happens if the police show up at the door of the subject of the confiscation proceeding, and he says, "Gentlemen, I never heard anything about this. Call my lawyer at 555-555-5555, and have a good day", and then proceeds to close the door?
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Old 11-11-2018, 06:34 PM
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In the light of the recent CA club mass shooting, there is a flurry of activity going on now to promote passage very strong national "Red Flag" laws, and the NRA is taking the heat for not going along, and also opposing bans of large capacity magazines. I am not in principle opposed to some form of a "Red Flag" law, but it would have to require far more than someone's unsubstantiated opinion of sanity before the SWAT teams can show up on anyone's doorstep to confiscate his guns. And apparently that is what happened in MD. I see these "Red Flag" laws as potentially becoming the greatest and most dangerous threat to gun ownership. Let's say you and your next-door neighbor aren't getting along for some reason, and assume he knows or suspects you own a gun. All he has to do to get his revenge is pick up the phone and call the cops to make big trouble for you. And that's exactly the kind of action that the "Red Flag" laws will promote without some much stronger safeguards than the "guilt without proof" standards which appear to exist in MD.

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Old 11-11-2018, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by S42N8 View Post
Not gonna get into the "was this necessary" discussion...
Good idea. The whole subject of ERPOs is being beaten to death, anyway. It's not gonna do any good trying to second guess the courts or the cops.

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Old 11-11-2018, 09:26 PM
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I guess some folks won’t be stopped from worrying about worst-case confiscation scenarios.

But this simplistic scenario about a neighbor or someone who doesn’t like you reporting you to the police and getting your guns confiscated without due process is about as realistic as those fears of people who don‘t post their full serial numbers because they think someone will call the police with that serial and report the gun stolen, and the cops will come running and confiscate their gun.

The authorized petitioners, who vary by state but are limited to family and certain people with direct contact like for example doctors, have to convince a judge and provide specific evidence for the order to be granted, and there are pretty stiff perjury penalties for the petitioners if it turns out they swore to false information.

Does that guarantee these orders can‘t be abused in certain cases? No, but any suspicions of a wider gun confiscation scheme seem overblown. If it happens, fight it in court. Nobody who resists by violence is any kind of 2A hero.

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Old 11-12-2018, 12:19 AM
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Let's consider how this process would work in a perfect world. No aspersions are being cast on the impartiality, competence, honesty, political views and/or diligence of the parties involved:

The District Attorney of the county receives a complaint that Joe Q. Gunowner, who has a small but high quality gun collection, is acting strangely and the complainant feels Joe Q. Gunowner is a danger to the community. The District Attorney promptly does his due diligence and determines that the complainant is squarely within the limited universe of persons entitled under the "Red Flag" statute to make such a complaint.

The District Attorney dutifully requests a hearing about Joe Q. Gunowner in the county court of record. Present in the courtroom are the judge, the District Attorney and the complainant, together with the court clerk, bailiff and court reporter. The District Attorney puts the complainant on the stand, the court clerk swears the complainant in, and the District Attorney proceeds to question the complainant, who states under oath that Joe Q. Gunowner is a scary person and a gunowner, therefore a danger to the community. As a courtesy to the judge, the District Attorney already has an order drafted for the judge to sign, declaring that Joe Q. Gunowner is a danger to the community and ordering all of his guns to be confiscated by the police.

Now through this whole proceeding, we have present in the courtroom the District Attorney and the judge, both employees of the state. Who is there to represent Joe Q. Gunowner? A) The Public Defender's Office - No, because there is no allegation that a crime has even been committed; B) Legal Services Corporation - No, because anybody who could afford a nice quality gun collection would have too much in assets to qualify for assistance by the Legal Services Corporation; C) a sharp, local private attorney - No, because until the police show up at his door to confiscate his guns, Joe Q. Gunowner doesn't have a clue that he has been the object of the court proceeding just described, which also apply with A & B, and needs to have a lawyer to represent his interests.

I reiterate, this is a perfect world scenario.
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Old 11-12-2018, 12:59 AM
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There is an old maxim which sort of goes like this - "Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean that somebody is not out to get you." And that is true in spades when it comes to any gun-related regulation.
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Old 11-12-2018, 01:13 AM
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Default I posted recently.....

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Originally Posted by Alk8944 View Post
If the original post represented the Maryland statute at all fairly, which is unlikely, then there is little similarity to the failed Utah statute!

As filed the Utah bill contained numerous safeguards favoring the citizen. An allegation by anyone not directly connected to the individual could not prevail in having that persons guns seized. It really appeared to be very logical and well thought out legislation!

Your first point is exactly correct! In the vast majority of cases if an individual confronted by police would simply COMPLY! You might not like it, but if the officer is wrong you do have recourse, as long as you cooperated! And any case where a citizen has ended up dead, the vast majority have taken actions themselves which caused this outcome!
One reason this grabbed my attention was that about 2 weeks ago I started a thread about the Utah proposal, also and thought myself that it was one of the most well thought-out proposals that I heard. But it does step on the 2A and I can see somebody making a case to 'red flag' somebody just to draw attention in the ensuing stink. I wonder if the ACLU would defend my rights?
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Old 11-12-2018, 01:22 AM
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Default That's an excellent idea...

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Originally Posted by Cardboard_killer View Post
The instructor of my concealed weapons class said a number of times: don't tell anyone, not even your "best" friend that you carry, nor what kind of gun you carry. It takes one phone call from that former "best" friend to the police, telling them that you pulled your "S&W snubnose model 36 with the fancy grips from the concealment pocket of his jacket," and threatened her, for you to end up in jail trying to deny the whole thing.

Or, like this case, shot dead for thinking too much of yourself when the police come knocking.
The only outward sign that I have any guns here is when I carry the rifle (covered, but the cases are BLACK!) to and from my car.
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Old 11-12-2018, 01:27 AM
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Default This is pretty new....

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Originally Posted by Cardboard_killer View Post
That's a question for the courts to decide. Has there been any success in challenging them in court?

Courts are where we get due process defined.
This is pretty new. And a precedent won't be set unless people stop trying to outdraw the police.

Personally, the best course for me and everybody (including you) would be to let them take it, then raise ABSOLUTE HELL. You can't argue rights when you aren't alive to do it.

Cases like this just make me think that people will take this as "Well, he shouldn't have had a gun, just like they said." So sticking around is better than going out blazing.
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Old 11-12-2018, 01:32 AM
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Default Don't be.....

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Originally Posted by susieqz View Post
eventually, confiscation will be tried in many places.
i'm real sorry now that i open carry.
For me, I don't want to open carry. But don't be put off by people trying to push the law more in their favor. That's just giving in.

As much as I read and hear about people who want to have a reason to confiscate guns or render them inert, like outlawing ammo, primers and such, I know damn well what their ultimate goal is. And any little crack that they can drive just the tip of a wedge into is victory for them.
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Old 11-12-2018, 01:39 AM
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Default But you need.....

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Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
Note that the "Red Flag" laws can hold many pitfalls for an otherwise innocent gun owner. They basically suspend one's constitutional rights without due process.
But you need to go through 'due process' (read 'expense' and 'years of time') to prove your innocence and get your guns back, all messed up like was posted before.
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Old 11-12-2018, 01:40 AM
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Default Certainly the police want to go home.....

....after a long day of prying guns out of cold, dead hands. That gets tiring after a while. (Kidding....I THINK)
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Old 11-12-2018, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Cardboard_killer View Post
Wouldn't that mean one of his sisters?
The aunt of the man's niece could be his wife. Or his brother's wife . . .
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Old 11-12-2018, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Golddollar View Post
What happens if the police show up at the door of the subject of the confiscation proceeding, and he says, "Gentlemen, I never heard anything about this. Call my lawyer at 555-555-5555, and have a good day", and then proceeds to close the door?
Since this probably comes with a confiscation order and a summons to appear, the court then authorizes a search warrant for the firearms and a body attachment warrant for the hearing (or in Missouri authorizes a 96-hour involuntary mental health evaluation commitment), and the door ceases to exist in one piece . . .
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Old 11-12-2018, 08:55 AM
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Just another reason why I'm glad I left MD when I retired 15 years ago!
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Old 11-12-2018, 10:34 AM
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Golddollar: If you close the door in the officers' faces and refuse to comply with the confiscation order, you will get a visit from S.W.A.T. You be in the news as a barricade situation. They will gain entry to your home and the firearms will be confiscated. If you are still alive, the rest of your life will be ruined. You will most likely spend time in prison, not jail, and after release not be permitted to possess firearms for the rest of your life.
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Old 11-12-2018, 10:37 AM
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I feel very fortunate to live in in S.C. Our gun laws here are very reasonable, and law abiding people can carry handguns in the glove compartment, and I believe in the center consoles of their vehicles without a permit. I've been retired 14 years and I don't think we have any law here like Maryland has. We all need to stay alert to what laws our liberal politicians will try to enact.
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