Admin Edit-
We are not going to even try and stop discussion of this virus. We know it is obviously going to affect, if not dominate our lives in the weeks/months to come.
So, that is what we will discuss- The Virus, and its affect on our lives.
We won't suspend our rules, so the banned topics are still banned.
So, we will discus it WITHOUT political or religious discussion. Period.
If that is too difficult for any of you, move along to another board where you will be happier.

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original post:


They started it.................

so why are they not getting a shot or medicine to stop it !!

With a population that is so HUGE, probably 15 times the number of people able to seek a cure than our US medicine people..........

What gives ?? !!

As I see it, the Chicom murdering dictators could care less about their people. If 1,000,000 of them died from this that would be that many they don't need to feed or employ. Communism sucks big time.

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No baby we aint

Who says they're not doing anything? Vaccines take a while to develop, especially for a bug that isn't fully understood. It's not like the flu where there is an established procedure and the vaccine is fine tuned each year for small mutations, by science or guesswork depending on which story you believe.

Virology is not a "fixed because we requested it" undertaking. We've known about Ebola for a long time compared to COVID-19, but still no vaccine.

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Release the Kraken

Takes time to develop an effective vaccine. I lived in Asia during the 2003 SARS epidemic...scary stuff. I believe the Administration is doing a good job.

Nevada Ed, someone in Washoe County was diagnosed with CoVID-19 today, I heard over Reno radio. Be safe up there.

I think Israel has some promising research going on.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

PLEASE, read what I'm writing . I apologize if I will write a lot of language mistakes, I'm an Italian doctor but my English is basic.
As most of you know, here in Italy the epidemia is the second in the world, just after China.
The ONLY (I REPEAT, THE ONLY) way to slow the spreading of the virus is something similar to war status, a Martial Law. People HAS TO STAY HOME.
Today , mars 10th, we have 11,000 infected persons, 463 deaths. ùAs I said, I'm a surgeon. Well, I resume here the situation:
Virus began his spread in GERMANY, but the first person affected traveled in several countries, and here in Lombardy infected an Italian coworker. Suddenly we observed an abrupt increase of atypical and severe pneumonias. The whole North Italy , the "engine" of national industries, is on the ground. Since this morning ALL people in ALL cities are confined at home. No way to exit. Roads are desert.
Operating rooms in hospitals are converted to Rianimation units, new walls are done to create temporary rooms , ordinary surgical activity is suspended, no medical or specialistic visits .
People in reanimation units is intubated, in pharmacological coma, but there no more places for new entries. For this reason triage, as in war times, is mandatory . Older and more severely ill persons are NOT accepted, and they are dying .
please, DON'T UNDERESTIMATE THE SEVERITY of this virus: it is NOT, I repeat, NOT, a different kind of flu.

Given the old maxim "I read it on the internet so it must be true"................ can we confirm "deicideicimi" is whom he's claiming to be???

Looks like he's been around for a while.....unless he is a sleeper planted many years ago for just this purpose.....I wouldn't put it past the internet.

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Forum consigliere

or a Russian Bot

Maybe I misunderstood....are you doubting what I wrote? If you want, I can truly confirm I exist.....
Maybe you cannot read what is happening here, in a little big Country, but we are literally desperate. Every day things are changing. Today the Government thinks to order the absolute closure of every activity. Until now shops were allowed to be open for not postponed needs. No face mask are more available. I have to visit patients with surgical paper masks, but we know they are not useful against the viral spread. Several colleagues and nurses are now positive to COVID-19.
What Authorities don't say to citizens is that we are triaging patients: older people and hopeless patients are not accepted to ER. For THIS reason Government says that COVID kills only elderly: younger patients are intubated , in coma, but still alive. For now.... This is generating a false opinion, and some idiots don't obey to impositions and exit home, but they are deluded.
Here a screenshot of the situation, and my little translation of the summary below.
First line is my region , Lombardy.....where epidemia began. It is spreading all around....
EDIT: my fault in translation. 8514 are 2599 infected at home, 5038 sick hospitalized, 877 in intensive care.
Source: Covid-19 - Situazione in Italia

Why am I writing that news from a Country so far? Because it is important to learn from errors! Isolation is the key! we learned it too late from China.

If you don't trust me: Coronavirus UK: outbreak trajectory 'same as Italy' says expert | Daily Mail Online

As one would expect, countries with nationalized health care systems will do the suffering. We will be fine, we treat everyone, we have private insurers with vast reserves.

[QUOTE=diecidecimi;140695362]Maybe I misunderstood....are you doubting what I wrote? If you want, I can truly confirm I exist.....


Yes and No.

I appreciate any new information you can provide..... but this is the internet and anyone can write anything.

So I follow a basic rule............................

"Trust but verify"

I'm not sure you are serious. First, I don't believe all American citizens have a health insurance. At the contrary, tests are so expensive that will not be performed as prevention devices.
Second, the main issue is the availability of so many intensive care pulmonary ventilators. The peak of infection is so steep that hospital capacity is shortly saturated . Money will not help.

I’m trying to figure out whether you’re trying to be sarcastic. If not, your sunny disposition might take some hits soon.

US hospitals are frequently triaging even in the normal course of doing business. Our local hospital, with which I am (unfortunately and not by choice) quite familiar, has to re-route ambulances to neighboring towns frequently.

Capacities, number of beds, doctors and nurses on duty are staffed based on the normal expected number of cases plus a margin of safety; any more empty beds or idle employees, and it gets too expensive. And a hospital can’t just be magically enlarged and qualified personnel hired from the unemployment line.

So it doesn’t take a lethal plague to knock us out. That’s what all the ill-informed anti-alarmists don’t get. This may be no worse than the flu, but if twice as many patients with serious symptoms show up at the hospital at the same time than during the ordinary flu season, chaos will ensue.

And if you can’t re-route patients elsewhere because every hospital has the same problem, it doesn’t matter one bit who pays the bill, the government or private insurers.

In the US anyone who presents at an ER will get seen and triaged

Thank you...and you are 100% correct. Good grief I feel like I stepped into an apocalypse B movie. This may be the norm in Italy, but this will not happen here:

"older people and hopeless patients are not accepted to ER."

The doctor from Italy is claiming that due to limited resources, the young are being treated at the expense of the elderly, that's nationalized healthcare. In this country, an 85 year old with a laundry list of health problems will get the same level of care as an 8 year old. If anybody thinks that Italy's resource rationing, treating the young and abandoning the old could happen here then please let me know...I have some ocean front property in Kansas I'll sell you real cheap.

You and a number of others on this forum are missing a critical point.
We have a certain number of hospitals that stay fairly full and a lot of those have flu,it is flu season after all.We have a new virus that infects people at an exponential rate which means the number of cases doubles very very quickly. We don’t have anything to really treat this with yet and the serious cases devolve into a virulent type of pneumonia that’s quite lethal. Our hospitals,if we can’t drastically slow the infection rate ,will become overwhelmed just as they have in Italy.We DONT have some super duper health care system. That is the news coming from the healthcare industry and the fake news you goofs deride.

It will ultimately be a simple numbers game.

If you run a hospital that normally needs five respirators, and has two extras at hand for emergencies, but suddenly five extra patients are brought in who need one, you hit the wall. It doesn't matter that your ER "sees" every patient and how well insured they are.

The naysayers who buy the all-is-ducky propaganda like to play the wrong numbers game. "This is no worse than the flu." It may actually turn out to be less lethal than the flu for most people. But even if it only leads to half as many serious complications as the flu, if four times as many people catch it, you still smack into the capacity issue when it comes to dealing with it.

They’ll be triaged, but if the hospital is full and the ER is full, they may only be stabilized until they can be transported to another hospital. That’s gonna be a big problem if all the hospitals in an area are full.

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Vegan by proxy.

CA hospitals are already setting up "surge tents" outside to handle virus pts - no way do we have enough ICU beds or especially ventilators to handle the predicted influx of seriously ill

Having worked in an ER I can tell you 2 serious car accidents, at the same time, with 10+ serious pts -will overwhelm most ERs that are not trauma centers

Now think of 50 - 100 new cases arriving every day!!!!!

FWIW, A buddy of mine, a retired Army Colonel, who just joined a major medical provider, told me the same thing.

If just 2 percent get this virus, that's 7 million people. If just 1 per die that's "only" 70,000 people. Twice as many as the flu. MEDICAL experts who are not making an extra dime, not politicians, or the stock market are saying it is 10 times as deadly as the flu. The low figure of 1% mortality is skewed by 10% mortality of those over 65. Now the US population over 65 is 16% Those people are going to get hit hard. You can stick your head in the sand, but I think this could be bad for the elderly if if really starts to spread.
I am not a DR. But, I do listen to them.

Thank you diecidecmi as someone who has worked as a firefighter emt and police officer,Red Cross volunteer security at Katrina and several hurricanes and tornadoes I agree it doesn’t take much to overload our system.And I was taught at major scenes to triage that means which ones have better chance of living and concentrate on them the others live or die on their own.Thank you for your insight on what is happening in your country.

Having the money reserves means nothing. It's about doctors, nurses and vital equipment. Should the overload reach a tipping point, I would not be too surprised to find that treatment decisions are made based on one or more of the following factors:

1) Age and underlying health of the patient, the British NHS model with which I am familiar.

2) Is the patient insured? (A consideration that could go away if the Federal Government steps in with guarantees, but good luck tracking all the fraud that would undoubtedly occur)

3) The size of the firearm presented to the doctor by an irate relative.

To say that it is impossible to overwhelm the US health system is an error of judgement or conceit the scope of which I find difficult to comprehend. For sure it indicates you've never seen how health care is provided in this state.

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Release the Kraken

I'm a once a year for a physical type medical consumer except for the rare unforseen injuries. Doctor's offices are where sick people are. My lifelong pal and pcp just retired. Replacement is a woman who wants my blood sugar down from 160 blah blah blah. I agreed to a 4 month trial period on a new wonder drug called Jardiance so I must return. Jury is not in yet whether I stay with them. Hate to leave a practice I have 60 year history with but none of the orig docs or their sons are left. Just another part of the hospital feeder system now.

Sometimes I think I'd be better off to toss the meds and stay away from doctors. Good plan until you need one. With my dogs there are 2 top notch emergency vets that work for cash when they can. I'd like to find a doc for myslf like that. I trust the vet, maybe I'll ask next time

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God spelled backwards is dog.

Coronavirus: 'We must choose who to treat,' says Italian doctor

Same info different source for the flat earthers - Maybe more of these stories will convince the "it's just the flu" crowd

To say that you do not die from the coronavirus is a lie that fills me with bitterness,” said Dr. Christian Salaroli, an anaesthetist, in an interview with the Italian daily Il Corriere della Sera on Monday.

Salaroli said that the emergency is so big in Italy that he and his colleagues must now select the patients who will or will not be able to access mechanical resuscitation (by intubation) from among the most seriously ill. Patients with viral pneumonia, and are in acute respiratory failure, are first placed on non-invasive ventilation (NIV), using an oxygen mask.

“It’s a first step, but after a few days, we have to choose. Since there is, unfortunately, a disproportion between hospital resources, resuscitation beds and critically ill patients, not everyone can be intubated,” Salaroli said. “We decide based on age and state of health,” he added.

“If a person between 80 and 95 years old has severe respiratory failure, it’s likely we will not go ahead. If they have multi-organ failure, with more than two or three vital organs, it means that their mortality rate is 100%,” he added.

Asked about the Italian government’s decision to quarantine more than 15 million people in northern Italy in an attempt to contain the epidemic, Salaroli said it was “fair but a week late.”

What matters now, he said, is to “stay at home, stay at home. I keep repeating it over and over again. I see too many people on the street, you have no idea what is happening,” he said.

The Brussels Time

For all who are predicting doom and gloom, what are you all, personally going to do about it? How are you going to stop the spread, when we can't control the actions of others?

Me? As I said in an earlier thread, I'm going about my life. I'm a caregiver for my immuno-suppressed elderly mother, so I'll do what I've been doing for years; being clean and avoiding people as much as I can. It's gotten me though the last pandemic, H1N1, and annual flu seasons - it's really it's all I can do. I'm not going to worry about the things I have no control over.

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Thread Killer.

And with this virus, infect everyone else waiting in the room.

This virus, like gravity, is apolitical.

You know , dear friends, I'm afraid . NO ONE trust on the gravity of this disease until he smashes the wall. Here in Europe on TV we see all politicians , even in Bruxelles European Parliament, shaking their hands, not wearing face masks, not keeping safe distance. A really bad example for the people.
I suppose an American citizen could not care about overseas Countries. At the contrary viruses don't care about borders.
Take a look to the graphics, US related. Are they steep enough?

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Might not be able to stop it, but if people reduce their amount of contact with others, it might slow down how fast it’s spreading. That spreads out the load on hospitals and may buy time to develop a vaccine. Maybe.

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Vegan by proxy.

Thanks for the Info.
Hospitals here are having employees do a mandatory self quarantine with travel restrictions.

VA Lake Nona has screenings to anybody who is entering The hospital.
Employees, Patient, and visitors

All this with a “Spring Break”
Vacationers hitting Florida.

Hospitals are predicting a peak in admissions.


Papa

I have come around, at first being in the no big deal camp. this is to be taken seriously. Cities and town quarantined, events where people gather cancelled, the travel industry virtually screeching to a halt, churches closed, stock market tanking, restaurants and movie theaters empty, etc etc.

We see this during flu season? I can’t recall.

My old home town, New Rochelle NY, has the National Guard on the way, not for any enforcement, yet, but to help the first responders and school district which are quickly becoming overwhelmed.

Make fun, post your memes all you want. This could or could not be something big. Quite simply, you don’t know squat, fact.

If I want advice on gun smithing I’ll come here, for health issues and a possible pandemic, I’ll go to the professionals.

Godspeed to all the first responders, putting their lives in danger every day.

I’m sure in a few months we’ll hear all the “I told you so’s” chirping and preening. Until then.....

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Sure you did

My local hospital where my wife and I volunteer with our certified therapy dogs has notified us no more visits allowed.The hospital also announced a total ban on visitors to hospital including family.Hospital security is going to have its hands full.I had been planning on retiring in the next year might of waited too long. Hopefully it will all shake out to the good.Can not leave now and leave the young guys behind we are already short handed.

Today (March 11, 2020) the Congressional Physician advised staffers that it is expected that between 75M - 150M people in the US are expected to contract this virus. If the initial fatality rates hold (2% lethality) then the math works out to be a death rate of 1.5 to 3 million people in the US alone. By the way, the seasonal flu has a lethality rate of around 0.1 - 0.2% so hopefully the numbers for the current corona virus are artificially inflated due to inadequate early testing. We will have to wait and see. A "good" year for seasonal flu deaths in the US is "only" 5,000; a "bad" year is 75,000+.

Our ability to receive treatment revolves around the capacity that the system can accommodate. I live near a world class research hospital. There are times that they are simply overwhelmed by an unusual influx in the emergency room, and these are not during times of an epidemic. This country does not have a whole lot of excess capacity available. The system is set up to be quite efficient during normal circumstances. The cost associated with being ready for any contingency would be astronomical and a burden that none would be willing to financially bear. Therefore, we just do not have it. Period. Don't believe me, check your local hospitals and see what population rate they like to operate at. They like the place fairly full on a normal day.
I worked in the field of healthcare planning and readiness along side health insurers for three decades. Sick humor among those in the industry is simply 'don't get sick even if it kills you.' Those who think that all is well and our healthcare system can handle anything are sorely misinformed. Our healthcare system is the best there is, yes, but it is not a miracle factory. Triage, lets face it, is a system used to allocate a scarce commodity, such as medical care, to those capable of deriving the greatest benefit from it is best for those that are expected to survive using fewer resources than others that may require more and have a limited future contribution to society. Couple that with truly limited capacity, and some of the potential pictures that may develop are not pretty.
Stay as healthy as you can, and be smart in your actions.

In one week us cases went from 100 to over 1000, now 1200. 33 dead. Dead count raised by nursing home. But, at the rate of 10x per week that means 1 million will have it by the end of this month. 10th-1000, 17th-10,000, 24-100,000, 31-1million.

England had 35 on the 1st and 456 today. Numbers come close to holding,
But, if it holds just 5X every week that 525x per month.

I am currently working as a general foreman in Utah and am going to have a couple hundred hands coming in from all over the country. Having morning meetings with 1/2 of them in a 100x40 lunch room, my brother who rooms with me will get the other 1/2 every evening. The lunch room also serves for several other companies with another 100 or so per shift.

I am 68 and he is 66, both ex smokers who don't want to be sick in some motel room away from home stuck. How much is the money worth? Are we worry warts?

That assumes that national hospital and medical resources will be adequate to take care of everyone who needs treatment. But the presumption falls apart if all available medical resources are overwhelmed by a tidal wave of the stricken and there is no reasonable alternative to helping only those who can be helped (and possibly not even all of those) and letting those who can't be helped (mainly the older) die.

Which is why the effort should now be focussed on slowing the spread of infection via social distancing and good hygiene practices so that while ultimately the same number, the same percent of the population, will be infected, we can avoid a surge that surpasses the capacity of our critical care health system.

The idea is to stretch out the period during which the infection spreads within our population so that our healthcare infrastructure is not overwhelmed.

Shocking that older Italian and hopeless patients are being turned away.
Actually, it is sickening.
Jim

It’s reality,their government waited too long to react.Ours is several weeks behind on this too.

Feb 22:

February 2020 Coronavirus News Updates - Worldometer

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Thread Killer.

I've personally overloaded ICUs in my patrol areas with multi-car crashes. Don't think there is adequate capacity in this country to deal with a pandemic. There's barely capacity to handle every day emergencies. Ever tried to get into an emergency room with an illness?

Good point. One thing I think people are overlooking, capacity wise, is where it is that they think they’re going to go for their heart attack or kids broken leg or car accident injury when there’s no room in ER’s and ICU’s that are filled with corona victims.

IF (big if) this gets Italy worse over the next couple weeks, it wouldn’t surprise me to see .gov deploy the military to set up portable field hospitals to increase capacity.

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Vegan by proxy.

Italy confirms nearly 200 people died from coronavirus in 24 hours: report | TheHill

As I previously said, the raise of cases is dramatic. Reading your posts, I see the same things are happening to our neighbors in Europe: they (and most of you) don't understand the topic. The issue -as correctly stated by someone of you here - is the speed of the spread. Today in Bergamo, the most involved city, the amount of cadavers is so high that they have to be located in churches. Every stranger Country says: I'm better than Italy, it will not happen to me. Every stranger Country says: my national healthcare system is better than Italian one; it will not happen to me. Well, the same was here, because every people has the illusion to be better than others. You said that your healthcare system is the best in the world: if you would be outside USA you could know that the whole World thinks the contrary. Sorry for you.
And when someone says that in US (oh yes, at the opposite to Italian peones) an old man will never let alone nor abandoned, it is obvious he has lost the crux of the matter. That arrogance will cost a lot. I know my words appear angry. Yes, I am. I'm angry because the whole World don't see what is happening under his eyes, and don't gain experience on others' mistakes. Today deaths are 1266.......a nurse said: the most sad experience is to be gazed by the patients in own eyes, and after the last phone call to their family to administer the sedative to make them fall asleep to be intubated. Maybe forever.

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Diecidecimi, thank you for your posts trying to warn us. Some of us are listening.

Not all of us have a high opinion of the US health care system. I speak as an American who has spent many years in Japan relying on their national healthcare.

I am sorry for the tragedy that your country is experiencing. I pray for you and your colleagues, and for your countrymen.

Thanks for your warning - the doubters are few but vocal and many understand that the virus needs addressing and preparation now!

Need to stay home and away from the crazies as much as the virus.

Thank you for helping us to understand the scope of this horrible problem that we must all deal with. Your comments have impressed me more than anything I have seen or heard from any other source.

Best wishes.