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Old 07-30-2020, 06:18 PM
S&W59 S&W59 is offline
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Do you ever find yourself at a gunshow and when you see a firearm that has a nefarious past by association, do you pause or give it extra consideration? By that I would point to a Nazi marked P08 or P38 or a 91/38 6.5 Carcano the type that shot Kennedy or the David Berkowitz Bulldog 44, "Son of Sam," revolver. Does a dark past make a something more or less interesting to you?
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Old 07-30-2020, 06:35 PM
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Not more interesting or more valuable to me, but some really appreciate the Waffenamt on a pistol or the Party Leader Nazi grips on a Walther PPK. I am pretty sure that a firearm that once belonged to a famous criminal like John Dilinger or Clyde Barrow would be more valuable, but I would be more interested in something once owned by a good guy like Frank Hamer or Clint Peoples.
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Old 07-30-2020, 07:03 PM
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To me, those are historical artifacts. "Dubious heritage" ? To me those are guns for whom claims of provenance are made with no real evidence to back them up. Or a firearm with a poor design or from a long gone manufacturer and no source of replacement parts.
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Old 07-30-2020, 07:10 PM
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Well I bought the PPK used by John Wilkes Booth to assassinate Lincoln. Didn't bother me none
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Old 07-30-2020, 07:11 PM
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Well I bought the PPK used by John Wilkes Booth to assassinate Lincoln. Didn't bother me none

Soooooooooooo YOU WERE THE ONE!!!
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Old 07-30-2020, 07:27 PM
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Keep it period at least-you bought the Remington Derringer he used.
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Old 07-30-2020, 07:33 PM
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Guns with a historic connection do in fact interest me. WWII in particular. So yes it could make me stop and look closer if I saw a waffenstampf(?).
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Old 07-30-2020, 07:36 PM
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I knew a girl once of dubious heritage.
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Old 07-30-2020, 07:40 PM
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Waffenamt-German for "Weapons Office", usually abbreviated WaA. Those letters and the Eagle and Swastika showed a weapon had been officially adopted by the Wehrmacht.
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Old 07-30-2020, 07:41 PM
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It doesnt bother me. It’s not the gun’s fault.
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Old 07-30-2020, 08:03 PM
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I had a couple of Russian Capture K98s that had a "nefarious" past.

One was SS deathshead marked WW1 rework and the other was a BNZ with a single SS rune.

Who knows what stories of those two were. Like the saying goes, "If they could only talk".

I forget which one, but one had shrapnel still embedded in the stock - or that might have been another RC K98 I had...
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Old 07-30-2020, 08:04 PM
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I collect guns with a history, mostly WWII but crime related guns interest me too.
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Old 07-30-2020, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by CAJUNLAWYER View Post
Well I bought the PPK used by John Wilkes Booth to assassinate Lincoln. Didn't bother me none
Does it have pearl stocks?
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Old 07-30-2020, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by CAJUNLAWYER View Post
Well I bought the PPK used by John Wilkes Booth to assassinate Lincoln. Didn't bother me none
Dang! If you have one also, that means there was a second one I was not told about.
😳😳
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Old 07-30-2020, 08:44 PM
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I knew a girl once of dubious heritage.
Did she carry 38s or 44s?
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Old 07-30-2020, 08:53 PM
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The markings may peak my interest just from a historical perspective, but it is not something I seek out or pursue. Not sure I would pay more for the markings or not, never really thought about it. As far as guns that are the same model used in famous crimes, no additional interest at all. Just my .02. FWIW
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Old 07-30-2020, 09:09 PM
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Bat Masterson "authenticated" several of his guns, though in the 1960s one collector received the Colt factory that authenticated the revolver he bought.
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Old 07-30-2020, 09:15 PM
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Well I bought the PPK used by John Wilkes Booth to assassinate Lincoln. Didn't bother me none
PM sent.
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Old 07-30-2020, 09:17 PM
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I seek out Russian arms with Finnish capture marks. I don't consider them of dubious heritage. I look at them as historical relics of the courage of the Finns.
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Old 07-30-2020, 09:32 PM
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While I wasn't really looking for one, I ran across a Kentucky State Police stamped 1076 a few years back. Turns out the fellow behind the counter knew the gun, and where it came from (meaning which officer), as he was a Trooper serving at the same time and at the same Post.

I was already set on buying it when he told me "Well, since you're buying it I can tell you some history on that pistol, if you're interested." Well I was then for sure!

He arrived on the scene where that particular Trooper had called for back-up, and the short version is he saw that 1076 save the other Trooper's life. The now deceased suspect was shot once with that 10mm, and didn't live long enough for the ambulance to arrive.

I cherish that gun for saving the officer's life. I don't look upon it as nefarious as I might a Nazi stamped piece. But like Justin T said, it's not the guns fault a Nazi had it or may have used it.

My particular 1076 was sold to another Trooper when they were retired, and he had just traded it in that day. I feel fortunate to have arrived when I did, and actually bought from another Trooper that was working the counter. So to answer the original question, I do find it's past very interesting. I suppose I should ask Mark to document the story, but like him, I wouldn't use it to sell the gun for more money, that just wouldn't feel right to me.

Oh well, I'm taking it with me when I go anyway.
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Old 07-30-2020, 11:34 PM
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I own three types of gun that could be considered as nefarious.

1) Remington R51, a post recall/re-engineered model. The debacle of the R51 introduction and recall is well known.

2) Steyr GB. Some people still equate them to the disaster known as the Rogak. The big difference is that the GB works.

3) Pakistani Enfield No.4 Mk2. Mine came via India, no doubt captured by the Indian army during a border skirmish. It has an Indian Army property mark. This rifle might be considered nefarious because of the long standing unpleasantness between those two countries.

However, it is strongly rumored that there is an even more unhappy chapter in the history of these particular rifles. New Year 1980 the Soviet Union unwisely invaded Afghanistan. In short order the US sold a bunch of modern arms to Pakistan to bolster its defences. Here is where things get fishy. The Pakistani Army now used M4s, and their Enfields "disappeared". Word is they were snagged by the CIA for distribution to the Mujahedin to harass the Sovs. About that time a factory in Canada received a large order for .303 British ammo. Hmmm. Fast forward to 2001 and afterwards and guess what? Many of what we used to call the Muj were now the Taliban, and what is one of the rifles they like to use for sniping from distance? Yep, the Enfield No4, courtesy of Uncle Sam.

Oh, and the Brits aren't blameless. They gave Pakistan the old Fazakerley plant in about 1958 that built those particular No4s.
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Old 07-30-2020, 11:59 PM
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I guess it would depend on whether you attribute the evil men do to one another, on an inanimate object. I don't.

I don't go out of my way hunting down these types of guns, but own several. I feel no differently about them, as I would any other gun.
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Old 07-31-2020, 12:02 AM
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I own a Mosin used in WWII that some would consider a dubious heritage because of what happened to the Soviet Union after the war. I don't personally, it has a long storied history. It was fired in the general location of Nazis at the very least and then 70 years later a groundhog that was eating my cucumbers

Like others have said, it's not the gun's fault. It's what attracts it to YOU that you should be worried about. If you want a WaA Luger or something for a collector's item, that's one thing. If you want it because your heroes used it, then you've got a problem.
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Old 07-31-2020, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
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Soooooooooooo YOU WERE THE ONE!!!
Heck, I sold it to him.
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Old 07-31-2020, 09:31 AM
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a gun is just the tool ,it's the actor that makes it bad
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Old 07-31-2020, 09:53 AM
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Some years ago, I saw a Army 1860 revolver with a historical letter stating it was once owned by Jesse James and serial number 666 along with a pencil drawing of his favorite horse. I was amused anyways.
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Old 07-31-2020, 10:01 AM
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Most of my interest in firearms is related to my interest in WWII.

I have a 1931 Mosin. I imagine it has seen some things in its life, though it probably spent 50 years in cosmoline before I cleaned it after buying it from another collector.

Similarly, one of my favorites despite being in terrible condition is a 1937 Israeli Mauser. Based on the locations of the Israeli markings, I can't prove but suspect it may have been part of the original shipments from Czechoslovakia. To me (Jewish of Ashkenazi ethic origin), there's just something amazing and triumphant about a gun that served as part of the Nazi regime then defended Jewish freedom - that has both Hebrew letters and WaAs stamped on it.

The only other Nazi relic I want is a P.38 that was my grandfather's and is now in possession of an uncle. We're not sure how it came into the family - my grandfather was a Bombardier on a B-17 in the 8th Air Force - we suspect it may have been won in a card game.

I do get creeped out by people who build collections of Nazi paraphernalia and the tables at gun shows with Nazi flags, patches, medals, and the like for sale.
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Old 07-31-2020, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S&W59 View Post
Do you ever find yourself at a gunshow and when you see a firearm that has a nefarious past by association, do you pause or give it extra consideration? By that I would point to a Nazi marked P08 or P38 or a 91/38 6.5 Carcano the type that shot Kennedy or the David Berkowitz Bulldog 44, "Son of Sam," revolver. Does a dark past make a something more or less interesting to you?
Youíve got two quite different issues here:

Guns of the TYPE that was once used nefariously, a Carcano set up like Oswaldís or a .44 Son-of-Sam Bulldog. I see nothing wrong with historical interest and have actual taken opportunities in the past to fire both your examples, pretty much for that reason.

The more problematic topic, which weíve discussed here before, are ACTUAL guns that might have been used in dark acts.

There are very specific cases, like guns known to have been used in murders. There was a big debate about the ethics several years ago when some gun or guns used by the Texas Tower shooter came up for sale somehow.

And then there are the ubiquitous Nazi-marked guns. I think everybody has to decide that for themselves. There are obviously many interesting guns for collectors. I donít have a problem with anyone who has an interest in them. And there are many rightfully treasured heirloom war bringbacks in American families.

I wonít own any as a matter of principle; that usually upsets collectors of these who accuse me of accusing them of being Nazi sympathizers, tend to get very defensive and drag out that illogical nonsense about ďblaming the gunĒ. So it does strike a nerve somewhere.
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Old 07-31-2020, 12:09 PM
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Just the other day I saw a Noble 22 Pump.
I was thinking some kind of Store Brand, but it didn’t look like any 22 I ever saw.
Googled it, Wow!
That was an actual Gun Manufacturer.
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Old 07-31-2020, 01:16 PM
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I had a Noble pump shotgun that was used in a nefarious manner. I pushed it down in the mud in a marsh when a game warder came looking for a "trespasser" hunting ducks. I was fishing out of my little 16 foot skiff when he got up the gut of that marsh. I looked for it for an hour or so...but never found it. It cost a whole 10 bucks back then....used of course! I even caught somr nice fish LOL
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Old 07-31-2020, 01:20 PM
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Most milsurp guns have never killed anyone. Military casualties are predominantly caused by crew served guns and artillery.

I have a place near me that sells old PD guns and evidence guns pretty cheap. Like the military guns, the former PD guns have probably never shot anyone. The evidence guns? Maybe. Iíve had to scrape dried blood and goo off some - most likely from a suicide.

The attraction for me is price. They are good guns (sometimes) at a low price. I donít care what was done with them.
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Old 07-31-2020, 01:32 PM
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On a couple of occasions administering decedent estates, Iíve sold handguns used by the deceased in their suicide.

I didnít share the history of either gun in the process of selling or to the final buyer.
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Old 07-31-2020, 02:29 PM
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In my Teen years, I would sometime use an Uncle’s Remington 1148 that a guy used to kill himself.
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Old 07-31-2020, 02:59 PM
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If a firearm had been used by a lawman or a private citizen to dispatch a law breaker, a villain, an assailant, would that be any different ?
A Mauser with Waffenamt stamps later being used by Jews to establish and defend Israel-rather ironic don't you think ?
To me it's dubious provenance that makes me skeptical. In US military arms it's claiming a gun was used at the Little Bighorn, by the Rough Riders, the Marines that give it "cachet", in WWII "SS issue" fills that role.
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Old 07-31-2020, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
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I knew a girl once of dubious --------.
"morals"

Fixed it for you ...you lucky guy!

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Old 07-31-2020, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
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If a firearm had been used by a lawman or a private citizen to dispatch a law breaker, a villain, an assailant, would that be any different ?
A Mauser with Waffenamt stamps later being used by Jews to establish and defend Israel-rather ironic don't you think ?
I had read that when the modern state of Israel was established, they used any arms they could get their hands on to defend themselves.

I have a similar feeling about the Russian arms with Finnish capture marks that I have acquired. I grew up in an area with a lot of people of Finnish heritage. I started studying Finnish history and developed an admiration for the Finnish people for standing up to the Russians in the Winter War and Continuation War. I probably have all the guns I plan to acquire but if somebody came up with a Russian Tokarev pistol with Finnish capture marks I would probably be interested.

A few years ago I was at the York, PA gun show and a nickeled Colt Combat Commander got my attention. The dealer told me it belonged to a deceased State Trooper who carried it off duty. The story is he came across a robbery in progress at a convenience story and he used it to take out a crook. I don't think the story inflated the price. To me, acquiring that gun helped out the widow of a deceased LEO. The dealer was a little surprised when he received a pile of Golden Dollars to help pay for it.
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Old 07-31-2020, 08:45 PM
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I had read that when the modern state of Israel was established, they used any arms they could get their hands on to defend themselves.
From my understanding that's correct, the issue was that (by and large) no one would sell them arms other than Czechoslovakia, which had piles of leftover German materiel and factories like BRNO that had a ton of parts that could quickly be assembled and shipped to Israel.
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  #38  
Old 07-31-2020, 09:18 PM
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I shot myself in the foot with my BB gun once and my dad sold it after my wippin'.
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  #39  
Old 07-31-2020, 09:41 PM
BLACKHAWKNJ BLACKHAWKNJ is offline
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In the 1993 movie "Stalingrad" there's a scene where a new replacement sees an Eastern Front veteran carrying a PPSh M1941, he gives him a look, the latter replies:
"Better than ours-doesn't jam !"
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  #40  
Old 07-31-2020, 10:05 PM
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Always buy the gun, not the story! I worked 9 years buying and selling guns for a large operation. I sure heard some great stories and almost all had no provenance to back them up. Buyer beware!
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  #41  
Old 08-01-2020, 02:24 AM
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Default Only the gun matters to me....

I'm not likely to be able to buy some truly valuable to some historical connection, but anyway. I'm a shooter, not a collector (I can't afford to be anything else) However, GENERAL history does interest me. My 1937 Mosin MUST have seen some history or maybe it was just used by a guard at the Kremlin. Who knows? It doesn't look a lot like it's been through the Battle for Savastopol. But it was THERE and that's good for me.
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  #42  
Old 08-01-2020, 04:27 AM
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Speaking of a dubious heritage. they say there is something interesting about a man with a future or a woman with a past........
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  #43  
Old 08-01-2020, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleEd View Post
Does it have pearl stocks?
No but it has engraved "Semper fi Tryannosaurus" on it.
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  #44  
Old 08-01-2020, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
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Does it have pearl stocks?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CAJUNLAWYER View Post
No but it has engraved "Semper fi Tryannosaurus" on it.
OK, whatís a dinosaur have to do with it?😜
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  #45  
Old 08-01-2020, 01:51 PM
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I could have purchased a Colt 38 Special snub nose that a fellow that worked in the same division used to kill himself. For $125 I should have but I just couldn't do it. We had spent a lot of time together at work and his death really bothered me. My grandson bought one of his guns but he didn't know him.
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