Just started looking on an auction site that has letters
"GB", and saw some weird activity on an even newer
member.

Guy sold a used pistol with "Buy Now", then relisted
a few days later--and same buyer bought it,
again.

Neither left feedback for each other, either time
(seller has "NR").

Another used pistol, ended with "Buy Now"--and
now seller has that pistol relisted, for
sale. Again, seller left no feedback on buyer, and
buyer left no feedback on seller...

Am I reading too much into this, or does it sound
like shill bidding? Is shill bidding a known "thing",
on auction sites?

The guy is also a "Paypal, USPS money order,
money order" payment only...

Edit: for clarification, both of those pistols
were being sold by same guy (each time, ha).

I have bought guns sight unseen from CDNN, The other sites I can pass on. CDNN has been very very good to me.

Location, Abuja?

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Sure you did

There is a LOT of FRAUD Sellers on GB right now...I have found and reported five in the last two weeks...three today. Almost all of the guns pictured come off the other auction sites and are really easy to find.

One Fraudster took 22 Buyers to the cleaners and got away with over $20K before he was reported and banned.

If a Seller has a NR and it looks too good to be true it probably is...

Bob

It’s the new Armslist.

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Sure you did

He accepts PayPal for a pistol ? That flag is as red as it gets


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I've seen similar activity on cars.com and autotrader with exotic and semi-exotic cars. Haven't seen somebody get a run that long, though.

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Release the Kraken

Yeah, PayPal won't allow any guns or accessories with their service is what I've read. They'll close your account and keep whatever money's in it.

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Dave Ramsey Cultist

I bought a handgun from a dealer in eastern PA. He sent me a PayPal invoice, clearly noting that it was for a firearm. I paid using PayPal. They must allow this for businesses that have accounts with them.

Robert

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Robert
SWCA #2906, SWHF #760

There's really nothing you could do about shill bidding. Someone could just as easily do this at a live auction too.

The key at any auction is to simply bid what you're willing to pay and no more. If you win, great, if you don't, also great.

No loss either way.

Also, the seller has to pay the Gunbroker fees if he has "shill" bid and then has to sell the gun again anyway. It's kind of counter-productive for him to keep doing that.

From what OP described it looks like building up a "reputation" - pump up a number of successful transactions. I'm curious why there were no positive feedback though.

That was my thinking also. Probably being smart and waiting to leave feedback. You know, the gun has to get "shipped" and "received"

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_______________
Super Snooper

These were not "shills" they were scammers...

A new GB member will copy the auctions from another site at usually a really good buy. Usually to make it worth it they will put out 4-5 auctions and by the time everyone realizes that no guns came for the money sent the scammer simply disappears and then is closed down by GB.

One scammer I saw had 22 "F"s for feedback for people who he had taken to the cleaners before discovered. He sold one SIG Nightmare three times and no one caught on in the month he operated.

One telltale sign is that none of the pictures in the auctions have the same background. I go right over to the other auction sites and usually within a few minutes have located the real auction.

I think this an organized ring. I've been writing down the names of the non-rated bidders on their auctions and all of them have registered since last fall...sleepers.

Also notice all of them have the Verification Checkmark next to their name meaning they have been vetted by GB...not good...

Bob

They have not caught your transaction yet or missed it. There are no provisions in the PayPal User Agreement that allow the purchase of firearms or ammunition.

Prohibited Activities
You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:

violate any law, statute, ordinance or regulation.
relate to transactions involving (a) narcotics, steroids, certain controlled substances or other products that present a risk to consumer safety, (b) drug paraphernalia, (c) cigarettes, (d) items that encourage, promote, facilitate or instruct others to engage in illegal activity, (e) stolen goods including digital and virtual goods, (f) the promotion of hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory or the financial exploitation of a crime, (g) items that are considered obscene, (h) items that infringe or violate any copyright, trademark, right of publicity or privacy or any other proprietary right under the laws of any jurisdiction, (i) certain sexually oriented materials or services, (j) ammunition, firearms, or certain firearm parts or accessories, or (k) certain weapons or knives regulated under applicable law.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I know several people who have been caught and their accounts frozen...

Found four more scammers today...three have been reported and removed by GB. Had a hard time finding where the last guy got his pictures but finally he posted a G19 that showed up on Armslist with a little searching...he should be gone shortly...

I've done 400+ transactions on ebay/paypal for firearms related items - mostly sights, barrels and grips with only one problem. The one problem was with 9mm mags. They were not high capacity but I didn't feel like arguing so I just took them down.
Ebay was not unpleasant or ugly about it. They just said something about the magazines not fitting the items they allowed for sale.
I've had more of a problem with "buyers remorse" on higher priced items where people are clearly lying about the reason for return.

My number one Gun Buying Rule - #1: If I can not Handle and
thoroughly inspect a Firearm, I won't even consider buying it,
for this reason alone I will not buy from a Web Site.

There is no reason that I need a Firearm that bad, that I have
to Buy off the Internet!

If I can not look the Seller in the eye and shake hands I don't
want the Gun.

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SD social distanc'n since 1889

I mean, that may be fine for new guns, but what about hard to find used guns? If you are looking for something, it simply may not be available locally.

I've bought a ton of used guns online and have not had a problem yet.

GB is becoming less credible every day. They allow sellers to misrepresent the product they have listed and obviously do not care. Revolvers listed "possibly never shot" in boxes and paperwork from a different models, shooters represented as "rare" collectibles. The uninformed buyers just keep on outbidding each other with the sold price way beyond the worth of the firtearm.

There is nothing wrong with GB as long as you use common sense. I will not buy anything from a seller who does not have many ratings and I read all the ratings. I factor in that I cannot hold or operate the gun and ask many questions before I bid. There is always a chance you get stuck with a gun that is not as described, so bid accordingly! I have bought several guns there and never had a problem.

Do you really think Gunbroker has an army of workers reviewing subjective terms in auctions?

It's up to you to review for yourself, ask questions, etc. If something doesn't look right, don't bid on it.

To answer the OP's question, yes, shill bidding goes on at many auctions,
on line and live. I've had shills bidding against me at farm, estate and
industrial auctions. A couple times I have run the price up acting eager
to buy the item and then left the shill holding to bag. One of them ask
me later if I wanted the item at my last bid, nooo, not interested.
I have never bought a firearm online and don't plan on doing so.

I have purchased well over 100 guns on the auction sites and have returned exactly one. As said, a new gun is one thing...but try and find a Model 58 locally and you may be waiting for the rest of your shooting life...

Was having breakfast this morning and looking over the auctions...1911 Commander...and I come on a NIB Colt Wiley Clapp Commander Bobtail...except there is no such thing... Pulled up the auction and sure enough...a brand new NR feedback Seller. Highlighted the auction header and did a Google search...and it brought me right to the real owner on the Houston Gun Sellers page... Reported that guy to GB also...

Bob

I've had the same experience. The fact is, the VAST majority of gun people are good, honest folks. Yes, you'll get a joker once in while, but it's rare.

I've seen a few people kicked off of GB for having false auctions. If things seem too good to be true, they probably are. Review the item, review the pictures, review the feedback, look up the seller on other ratings engines.

All of these things can be done in a matter of minutes with today's technology.

Having these online auction sites is a blessing. Guns I would never have been able to purchase in the pre internet days are available at your fingertips today. All it takes is a modicum of common sense and a small amount of effort and you're 99+% likely to have a great experience.

There is dishonesty on the internet? People manipulate transactions to try to make more money? Say it ain't so! Bernie Madoff must be turning in his grave.

Earlier this week I put a minimum bid on some new in the package 30-30 brass. The minimum bid allowed was just a little higher than Midway sells for new brass. My bid was for several unopened packages of 50.

The buy-it-now price was waaaay more than that. The seller clearly determined that the biddinng would go much higher. It didn't.

With just two days remaining and no bids but my own, somebody hit the buy-it-now price.

I'm convinced it was the seller who wasn't going to let his merch go at a reasonable price.

It's taught me a lesson, though. If I ever start selling merch on Gunbroker, I'm going to include an unreasonably high buy-it-now price. And if the bidding doesn't satisfy me, I'll just do what the above mentioned seller did.

If it works for others, it should work for me.

A few years ago I came across a custom 1911 .45 on Gunbroker that was described as being worked up by an old time custom pistolsmith but lacked some of the usual obvious provenance. I'm happy to say that the seller answered every question I had and bent over backward to provide enough documentation to allow me to satisfy myself that the gun was authentic.

I bought the gun to keep for myself forever. But since we can't take it with us, I made sure to copy off all the discussions I had with the seller and put them in the dedicated envelope I created for this gun, so when my estate goes to sell it all of the provenance will be there to show to a potential buyer.

The best approach to get the most money is to have a penny start, no reserve auction. You'll create bidding activity which will naturally drive the price up to what the item is worth to the general public....many times it'll be worth more than a Buy it Now price that you can dream up.

Also, in today's market, I'll bet the person who bought it was legit. People are paying insane prices for brass today. If the seller bid on it, he still has to pay Gunbroker for the successful auction. It would be counter productive for him to do that too many times.

...have sold well over a 1000 items on GB and have never once used a penny start...I just don't have the nerve...

I start my auctions at the minimum I want for something and if no one wants it at that price then I either lower the price or just let it sit...

I look to GB for stuff I really want that I just can't find in the LGS or at a show. Nothing rare or exotic, but hard to find. As an example, I found both of my Ruger Gunsite Scout rifles, in 5.56 and .308, on GB. Not that hard to find, you say? Try finding a left hand version in flyover country.

In any event, I paid a fair price, the rifles were as described, and they were from sellers with thousands of sales. I looked at the feedback, I looked at the pictures, I found their online presences and studied them, and then I set the price I was willing to pay as my max bid. In my minor GB purchase history of less than ten firearms, I have yet to be disappointed, but I have been outbid on some guns by bidders who I believe represent the OP's topic. And in some cases, those guns are still around.

As with everything, do your due diligence, and don't take unnecessary risks with money you can't afford or don't want to lose . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Ther biggest reason to buy guns off the internet is that there is absolutely no record of the transaction. You send the seller the money and he ships you the gun and there is no FFL involved or anything-you can get a ghost full auto assault weapon that nobody knows you have. At least that's what I've seen on MSNBC and CNN

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Forum consigliere

It's same as buying at a gun show---no background check, no record of transaction...I heard that recently, must be TRUE!

Maybe I need to be educated, but doesn't GB expect to get their percentage / commission from a Buy It Now sale? Doesn't that make the approach you describe unprofitable?

As to the comment "I never buy any guns on-line":
Some of my nicest guns have come from this web site. Certainly it would have been unlikely and very time consuming to try to find them locally. On the other hand, I've also bought a couple that the seller "misrepresented" the gun's condition. (Really, outright lied in one case.) But I never sent one back figuring the cost of return shipping and all the hassle wasn't worth it. So on balance "I got no complaints."

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You're shy a few manners.

I'm not a GB seller, so this is purely speculative--perhaps
the commission payments are done on a monthly roll-up
basis, or within xyz days? Something that might let a
scam seller 'float' for a time, without paying commissions?

There is fraud EVERYWHERE!!! If you think all those cleaned up guns are just as they look and as they are described at gun shows, think again. I have seen more attempted fraud at gun shows than I have ever seen online. Sitting on a table with tags like rare, scarce, high condition, rare caliber, rare barrel length, and listed at way over current value. There are also shill buyers at gun shows and a friend of mine fell for this once, thinking he had bought a rare gun out from under a shill buyer by offering more money in front of the supposed buyer. Turned out to be a common model worth less than half of what he paid.

It is so easy to bash online auctions and GB, but I can only tell you that after buying dozens of guns online, I have NEVER been disappointed. Do your research, study the collector books, bid only on items with adequate number of photos and ask seller any and all questions before bidding or buying. In a way, I am happy to see how many members will never do business online because the competition is reduced that way.

I should be telling everyone I can to never buy anything online, but that would be totally inappropriate. Wait - wait - that approach may be what those posts above are aimed at!!!!!!!!

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I do like most people here, look for a lot of transactions, good feedback and ratings, but this brings to mind the question, how does an honest good guy get started? The best sellers all had to have a first transaction.

Between Thursday morning and Sunday afternoon I reported 10 scammers... Thursday noon time the four reported in the morning were removed... Nothing happened to the others till Sunday afternoon...then they started disappearing one at a time...now they are all gone...

...buy something...several things from established dealers. Once they report you made your obligations people will have a little more confidence in you as a seller...

And don't start off with guns...a set of grips, holster, reloading dies...some things under $100.00 before you try and move guns...

Bob

Shills, have ruined a lot of good auctions. Anytime money is involved you will have those running the game on you.

That is in fact a very good question. Several months ago I ran into this dilemma. My solution was to inquire about the item being sold and request pictures of the piece that otherwise, if the seller did not have it, may not be available. Several friends said 'you gotta start somewhere', and I came close to falling into the trap. A major red flag is that scammers want instant payment, and often by methods not stated in the listing.
Requesting pictures only solves one part of the puzzle. Another major piece is 'will the seller actually ship it?' I guess that is where faith and or trust comes in. I am very skeptical of new sellers with no feedback, and most often pass them by. I would suggest to a new seller that they sell several things of low value first to build some feedback which translates to a bit of assurance that they are not there for a quick scam.
Sadly the world is not improving in this area.

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NRA Endowment Member

The guy I was wondering about now has negative feedback
from several sellers--including the guy that bought the same gun
from him, on 13 and 14 April.

I saw a bunch of it going to live auctions with my dad long before the Web. We can hardly be surprised that they moved with the technology, especially as that technology offers many other ways to commit shenanigans.

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Release the Kraken

I have bought off of GB before. I do however always read feedback for the seller prior to bidding and if they want x amount for using CC or they have a low or non-existent feedback I just pass them by and look elsewhere.

I alway set my top limit on how much I will spend and will not go over it. I have seen pistols go for exorbitant amounts of money.

And as on previous poster noted PayPal for payment should have screamed fraud right off the bat.

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I Cor. 10:13 "1611KJV"

All the pros use penny start. You should try it once and I'll bet you find you get the most for what you want to sell.

Do these guys ever get prosecuted?

Yep, I walked in my LGS one day and said in a loud voice that I was there to buy a couple machine guns cause Nancy Pelosi said I could.

I doubt it... GB would have to keep careful watch on who their scammers are and then get the Feds involved as it is interstate commerce...

I have bought from GB several times with no problems. I only buy from rated sellers and most times they are gun stores and only buy with a credit card. If they don/t take a credit card I just move along.

Was just over on GB and if you happen to be looking for one of the fairly rare 3" 657s don't bid on the one that has a BuyNow of $1076...great deal isn't it..NOT...

Guy registered today and I found the pics he used were from an old GunsInternational auction.

He has been reported to GB as a scammer.