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  #251  
Old 11-30-2021, 12:16 AM
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It says here the verdict was disgraceful. The punk came to Kenosha to do some killing. He got what he wanted. At no time was his life seriously in danger. His second two victims were trying to disarm an active shooter who had already killed once.
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  #252  
Old 11-30-2021, 01:26 AM
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It says here the verdict was disgraceful. The punk came to Kenosha to do some killing. He got what he wanted. At no time was his life seriously in danger. His second two victims were trying to disarm an active shooter who had already killed once.
Did you forget to insert a link?
You say "it says here.."
Where is "here"?

Not that it really matters. He was pronounced not guilty by a 12 person jury of his peers who saw ALL the evidence (vs. a clip or two of video and someone's opinion).

So what some left-leaning talking head or bird cage liner says is of absolutely zero consequence.
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Old 11-30-2021, 03:18 AM
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Or maybe the civil authorities in Kenosha should have done their jobs, and maintained order in the first place..
Not to say it was a wise decision to be there but when civil authorities refuse to do there duty to protect life and property then what is the recourse? To bury you head in the sand? I watched most of the trial and there was a lot of videos shown. The level of total carnage and lack of any type of civilized behavior is appalling. So what are you going to do when it's your neighborhood?
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Old 11-30-2021, 03:19 AM
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It says here the verdict was disgraceful. The punk came to Kenosha to do some killing. He got what he wanted. At no time was his life seriously in danger. His second two victims were trying to disarm an active shooter who had already killed once.
Yup, and what do you think his attackers were there for??
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Old 11-30-2021, 04:16 AM
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Not to say it was a wise decision to be there but when civil authorities refuse to do there duty to protect life and property then what is the recourse? To bury you head in the sand? I watched most of the trial and there was a lot of videos shown. The level of total carnage and lack of any type of civilized behavior is appalling. So what are you going to do when it's your neighborhood?
When it's my neighborhood? Certainly I'll defend it. And when the dust settles, I'll demand answers from the craven politicians and police chiefs who wouldn't do their sworn duty and enforce the law.

But it wasn't Rittenhouse's neighborhood. He didn't live in the immediate vicinity, and he didn't own a business that was being threatened. And he was underage! (As I said earlier here: I raised two sons, and if either of them had come to me at age 17, and told me he was heading off to a riot with a rifle in hand, I would have planted my foot you-know-where.)

There are two separate issues here. Was Rittenhouse acting within the law? Yes, according to the jury, and I fully accept that. Should he have been there? Absolutely not, in my opinion.

(I note that not one person on this thread -- not a single one -- who defends Rittenhouse has said he or she would let his own son do what Rittenhouse did.)
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  #256  
Old 11-30-2021, 05:07 PM
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A lot of the civil rioting was not only tolerated but supported by people above their local police. Seattle has been under what a reasonable person could believe was a knowingly fabricated "consent decree" for a decade or so. The City Attorney, who admits hating the police, rolled over instead of doing his job.

The popular version of the death of George Floyd is mostly a fabrication, claiming a non-lethal technique killed him. He became a hero to people who have some other legitimate grievances as a result. In the resulting riots, Seattle PD and the State Patrol allowed streets and I-5 to be blocked unlawfully, for which their command staff should have been charged with multiple counts of "unlawful imprisonment" as accomplices (1 for each person blocked or restrained). Rather than risk injuring criminals who were acting like criminals, they allowed innocent if ill-advised persons to be injured. There have been no consequences, although there is civil litigation going on.

Our legislature has passed laws they call "police reform", which are not reform, but pandering to the BS claims of apologists for the criminally feral. Since those laws took effect this summer, we see the impact in de-policing; de-prosecution, and increases of all sorts of misconduct. What I refer to as "spoiled brat culture" is taking over. Victimization is climbing. Accountability is a fantasy.
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Old 11-30-2021, 08:03 PM
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A lot of the civil rioting was not only tolerated but supported by people above their local police. Seattle has been under what a reasonable person could believe was a knowingly fabricated "consent decree" for a decade or so. The City Attorney, who admits hating the police, rolled over instead of doing his job.

The popular version of the death of George Floyd is mostly a fabrication, claiming a non-lethal technique killed him. He became a hero to people who have some other legitimate grievances as a result. In the resulting riots, Seattle PD and the State Patrol allowed streets and I-5 to be blocked unlawfully, for which their command staff should have been charged with multiple counts of "unlawful imprisonment" as accomplices (1 for each person blocked or restrained). Rather than risk injuring criminals who were acting like criminals, they allowed innocent if ill-advised persons to be injured. There have been no consequences, although there is civil litigation going on.

Our legislature has passed laws they call "police reform", which are not reform, but pandering to the BS claims of apologists for the criminally feral. Since those laws took effect this summer, we see the impact in de-policing; de-prosecution, and increases of all sorts of misconduct. What I refer to as "spoiled brat culture" is taking over. Victimization is climbing. Accountability is a fantasy.
It amounts collusion of city and state officials with organizations whose purpose is to effect change through violence (a.k.a. terrorist organizations). When decent folks take a stand, they are called vigilantes, unacceptable, knuckleheads, etc. And that's just in this thread. The media is even worse.

The officials need to either do their job or resign and make room for those who will. If they continue to support terrorist organizations against law abiding citizens, they may find out those citizens can restore order themselves.
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Old 11-30-2021, 09:32 PM
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...

(I note that not one person on this thread -- not a single one -- who defends Rittenhouse has said he or she would let his own son do what Rittenhouse did.)
I and several thousands of others went to South Vietnam to defend a nation, a member of SEATO, against similar riotous forces. We were all sons of someone.
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Old 11-30-2021, 09:47 PM
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It says here the verdict was disgraceful. The punk came to Kenosha to do some killing. He got what he wanted. At no time was his life seriously in danger. His second two victims were trying to disarm an active shooter who had already killed once.
Thatís not the way 12 of his peers saw it.

Are any of the others being prosecuted, the guy who pointed a gun at him, high kick man? We know Kyleís reason for being in Kenosha, what altruistic reasons do the other angels have for being there?

Lessons learned:
Donít chase someone while threatening to kill him and then try to take his means of defense

Never bring a skateboard to a gunfight

Donít point a gun at someone with a gun and not expect to get shot

Stay home
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Old 11-30-2021, 11:42 PM
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Uh..guys... I think you can stop beating now. That horse is dead.
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Old 12-01-2021, 08:55 PM
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When it's my neighborhood? Certainly I'll defend it. And when the dust settles, I'll demand answers from the craven politicians and police chiefs who wouldn't do their sworn duty and enforce the law.

But it wasn't Rittenhouse's neighborhood. He didn't live in the immediate vicinity, and he didn't own a business that was being threatened. And he was underage! (As I said earlier here: I raised two sons, and if either of them had come to me at age 17, and told me he was heading off to a riot with a rifle in hand, I would have planted my foot you-know-where.)


There are two separate issues here. Was Rittenhouse acting within the law? Yes, according to the jury, and I fully accept that. Should he have been there? Absolutely not, in my opinion.

(I note that not one person on this thread -- not a single one -- who defends Rittenhouse has said he or she would let his own son do what Rittenhouse did.)
Rittenhouse had strong family ties (his father lived here) and social ties (he worked here) to Kenosha. But hey, after all, who would want to get into "a quarrel in a faraway land between people of which we know nothing."

For the record, while we are all debating whether or not he should have been there, it should be noted that one 17 year old with a rifle, in a short time, accomplished what hundreds of law officers and National Guardsman were unable to do- bring the expletives-deleted to heel and send them packing.
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Old 12-01-2021, 08:58 PM
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Thatís not the way 12 of his peers saw it.

Are any of the others being prosecuted, the guy who pointed a gun at him, high kick man? We know Kyleís reason for being in Kenosha, what altruistic reasons were the other angels have for being there?

Lessons learned:
Donít chase someone while threatening to kill him and then try to take his means of defense

Never bring a skateboard to a gunfight

Donít point a gun at someone with a gun and not expect to get shot

Stay home
"Never bring a skateboard to a gunfight" I absolutely love it!
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Old 12-01-2021, 09:23 PM
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They bring a skateboard, you bring a gun. That's the Kenosha way!
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Old 12-02-2021, 11:42 AM
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Not the first time a violent criminal with a skateboard has been shot. And a very well respected doctor and ballistics researcher (you can guess who if you think about it) with some experience as a skateboarder told point blank with regard to an assault on a cop in Western WA that is pretty easy to kill someone with a skateboard.

My wife, small, not all that strong and with a bad back is pretty sure she could do enough with a skateboard to qualify as death/GBH. And she is not a use of force or firearms person; she's a retired college professor with a background in the traditional liberal arts.

The claims being made about the criminals shot by Rittenhouse that assert they were peaceful protestors and did not present a potentially lethal threat are so complete and utter drivel from people who are not even arguably qualified to opine. They have the right to their opinion, but they are simply wrong.
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Old 12-02-2021, 12:22 PM
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Not the first time a violent criminal with a skateboard has been shot. And a very well respected doctor and ballistics researcher (you can guess who if you think about it) with some experience as a skateboarder told point blank with regard to an assault on a cop in Western WA that is pretty easy to kill someone with a skateboard.

My wife, small, not all that strong and with a bad back is pretty sure she could do enough with a skateboard to qualify as death/GBH. And she is not a use of force or firearms person; she's a retired college professor with a background in the traditional liberal arts.

The claims being made about the criminals shot by Rittenhouse that assert they were peaceful protestors and did not present a potentially lethal threat are so complete and utter drivel from people who are not even arguably qualified to opine. They have the right to their opinion, but they are simply wrong.
The skateboard seems to be the weapon of choice for the "Antifa" crowd. Innocuous, seemingly innocent, yet deadly effective and fairly easy to retain control of in an attack.

Lots of video of people carrying skateboards at the riots which have happened over the last couple of years. Very little of it shows someone actually riding one.
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Old 12-03-2021, 01:31 PM
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They also allow for a potentially faster escape.
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  #267  
Old 12-03-2021, 01:34 PM
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The skateboard seems to be the weapon of choice for the "Antifa" crowd. Innocuous, seemingly innocent, yet deadly effective and fairly easy to retain control of in an attack.

Lots of video of people carrying skateboards at the riots which have happened over the last couple of years. Very little of it shows someone actually riding one.
OMG. Better ban them.
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Old 12-03-2021, 07:06 PM
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They also allow for a potentially faster escape.
A digression:

This reminds me of an event I witnessed at the Baltimore Inner Harbor when I first moved out there. The area had just been rebuilt and was a nice tourist area.

They had 'No Skateboards' signs up everywhere. Eventually we saw a kid, maybe around 12-14, zipping by as quick as he could on a skateboard. A cop in a golf cart (complete with little blue light and siren) was in hot pursuit. He was not gaining on the kid. The kid got away by going down some stairs.

The cop gave our group a dirty look when we all busted out laughing. It could have been a Road Runner/Wile Coyote cartoon.
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Old 12-04-2021, 03:00 PM
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OMG. Better ban them.
Seems a bit excessive. Maybe just register them as vehicles.
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  #270  
Old 12-04-2021, 03:15 PM
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A digression:

This reminds me of an event I witnessed at the Baltimore Inner Harbor when I first moved out there. The area had just been rebuilt and was a nice tourist area.

They had 'No Skateboards' signs up everywhere. Eventually we saw a kid, maybe around 12-14, zipping by as quick as he could on a skateboard. A cop in a golf cart (complete with little blue light and siren) was in hot pursuit. He was not gaining on the kid. The kid got away by going down some stairs.

The cop gave our group a dirty look when we all busted out laughing. It could have been a Road Runner/Wile Coyote cartoon.
A lot of folks in the Baltimore area would give anything to go back to the days when skateboarding was the biggest crime at the Inner Harbor...

NJ Family Visiting Baltimore Haunted By Teen Attack At Inner Harbor – CBS Baltimore
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Old 12-04-2021, 05:01 PM
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My candid opinion of this situation; "All of our heads should hang in shame".

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Old 12-04-2021, 05:19 PM
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My candid opinion of this situation; "All of our heads should hang in shame".

Chubbo
Really? Does that mean you are of the same mind as all the Anti-2nd Amendment, pro gun control types?

'Cause that is what THEY are always doing - blaming the actions of one person with a gun on all of us as gun owners.

If you are hanging your head in shame and guilt over this situation, then shouldn't you be destroying your guns as penance and "to do your part for reducing gun violence"...
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Old 12-04-2021, 07:22 PM
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My candid opinion of this situation; "All of our heads should hang in shame".

Chubbo
I have no reason to hang my head in shame, at least in regards to this.
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Old 12-04-2021, 07:33 PM
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The shame is for those parts of society who tolerate or even encourage the apologists for the criminal feral and the resulting anarchy and lack of respect for victims of those criminals. The shame is for those who refer to rioters as "peaceful protestors", which they were not. I have stronger words, but I will respect the Gorialla's wishes about such.
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Old 12-04-2021, 08:22 PM
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The shame is for those parts of society who tolerate or even encourage the apologists for the criminal feral and the resulting anarchy and lack of respect for victims of those criminals. The shame is for those who refer to rioters as "peaceful protestors", which they were not. I have stronger words, but I will respect the Gorialla's wishes about such.
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Old 12-04-2021, 08:35 PM
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Default Shame on us.

It seems that my statement was taken completely out of context. I should have chosen my words with more care. My grammar sucks, as most of the forumís members are aware.

Regardless of my grammatical ineptitude, I wonít accept your blame, for the state our society is in.

It hurts me deeply that my fellow forum members would come to the conclusion that some of you have, and Iíll stand by my statement; We should be ashamed of our society.

I fail to see any honor, that any of you see, in our, societyís state of affairs.

Iíll assure you that none of my guns will be destroyed, or leave my home, without my approval.

I feel that the gorilla will frown on this reply, and itíll never be read, but so flops the mop.

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Old 12-05-2021, 02:56 AM
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If you said you were disgusted, or disheartened, or disturbed, or even upset at the current state of our society, I would be right there with you.

But in terms of where our society is and/or is headed, I won't be shamed for something that I have done nothing to perpetuate, and which I have actively opposed in every way that I know how.
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Old 12-05-2021, 11:25 AM
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No head-hanging here.

I live in a nice town full of decent people. We had a couple of peaceful protests, a right guaranteed by the Constitution. There were counter-protests, also peaceful. I had friends in both camps. We are still friends.

Maybe nobody remembers Watts in 1965, or what it was like in 1968. There were draft riots during the Civil War, and anarchists blowing things up in the 20s.

None of this is really new.

The people who broke the law and destroyed peopleís property and hurt their fellow citizens should be ashamed. I most definitely am not.
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Old 12-05-2021, 02:39 PM
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Default My shame

I regretfully, but understandably accept your chastisement, for my poorly stated comments.

Iíll try to clarify my meaning, My shame lies in this fact; Some members of our society, in my opinion, knowingly do evil things. Furthermore, I believe that itís shameful, that some of their constituents, feel the need to defend that evil personís evil actions, and protect their rights.

Things of this nature, create turmoil in organizations, and destroy friendships. I certainly don't want to promote that.

I hope that makes sense, if not, so be it. Iíve shown my ignorance, and ineptly said way too much already.

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Old 12-05-2021, 03:25 PM
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It seems that my statement was taken completely out of context. I should have chosen my words with more care. My grammar sucks, as most of the forumís members are aware.

Regardless of my grammatical ineptitude, I wonít accept your blame, for the state our society is in.

It hurts me deeply that my fellow forum members would come to the conclusion that some of you have, and Iíll stand by my statement; We should be ashamed of our society.

I fail to see any honor, that any of you see, in our, societyís state of affairs.

Iíll assure you that none of my guns will be destroyed, or leave my home, without my approval.

I feel that the gorilla will frown on this reply, and itíll never be read, but so flops the mop.

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I would not take things too seriously. This is the internet where some will disagree or agree both of which are fine. As long as you are pleased and happy with your life and those that are important to you are fine with you all is good in life. When you get offline and turn off the PC all online worries disappear.
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Old 12-06-2021, 03:04 AM
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If the guy with the non permitted handgun, or the guy with the skateboard had killed Rittenhause for cleaning graffiti and putting out dumpster fires, what would be the sentiments?
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Old 12-06-2021, 08:45 AM
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If the guy with the non permitted handgun, or the guy with the skateboard had killed Rittenhause for cleaning graffiti and putting out dumpster fires, what would be the sentiments?
ďHe shouldnít have been thereĒ ?
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Old 12-06-2021, 12:03 PM
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When rioters close roadway bridges is it wrong for law abiding motor traffic to be there?
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Old 12-06-2021, 12:22 PM
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When rioters close roadway bridges is it wrong for law abiding motor traffic to be there?
No, but you can't hit them and must use 'due care' to avoid collision.

"In every event, speed shall be so controlled by the driver as may be necessary:

(1) to avoid colliding with a person, vehicle or other conveyance on or entering the highway..."
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Old 12-06-2021, 12:33 PM
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No, but you can't hit them and must use 'due care' to avoid collision.

"In every event, speed shall be so controlled by the driver as may be necessary:

(1) to avoid colliding with a person, vehicle or other conveyance on or entering the highway..."
Perhaps except when you get surrounded by rioters while you are driving. Due care could be blowing your horn and moving slowly ahead. Am not aware of any law saying you must submit yourself to unlawful detention and assault. As soon as you are surrounded and not allowed to leave, the story changes, and is not the same as deliberately driving into a crowd of protesters.
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Old 12-06-2021, 12:39 PM
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When Reginald Denny was dragged from his cement truck and beaten senseless with concrete blocks, or if fire fighters are beaten and shot while responding to fires within a riot or other "Occupied" zone are they wrong to be there?
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Old 12-06-2021, 12:42 PM
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ďHe shouldnít have been thereĒ ?
Maybe someone would say that the thousands of Marines and soldiers killed and maimed on Omaha Beach and Iwo Jima ".. should not have been there".
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Old 12-06-2021, 01:04 PM
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Of course what is legal depends upon the immediate circumstances and the reasonableness of one's actions. The bad news is that often you'll be in court to find out what folks in your community see as 'reasonable.'

An example: There was a coal mine strike in NW New Mexico. Strikers were encamped by where the mine road met a public highway. The coal company continued operations using manasgement personnel (even as oilers on the dragline - their suits got messy) and a few 'scabs,' or workers crossing the picket line. All vehicles had to stop where the mine access met the highway (both because of the law and heavy traffic) - strikers surrounded a 'scab's' car and started beating it and screaming at the guy inside. When someone started using a chain on his windshield, he pulled his 303 Enfield off the floor, fired one round out of his driver's side window, nearly straight up. The crowd backed off posthaste.

The DA's analysis was that his use of a warning shot was close to reasonable under the circumstasnces and was not something they would prosecute. A different DA might have decided differently.

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Old 12-06-2021, 01:10 PM
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When rioters close roadway bridges is it wrong for law abiding motor traffic to be there?
*
No. It is wrong for LE to tolerate that. It did not go over well when I pointed out in writing that the actions of WSP command staff in doing so made them accomplices to the felonies committed. (I have found no legal authority that allowed them to do that.) They also did a poor job of blocking the roadway, and a motorist (motivations unknown, but pretty clearly deliberate) ran into some of the rioters and killed one.
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Old 12-06-2021, 01:15 PM
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That's just weird that a state police organization has no authority to close roads and bridges during emergencies. It's routinely necessary and has to be done.
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Old 12-06-2021, 01:20 PM
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It was not an emergency, but a choice. They did rather than make arrests, and admitted that was the reason. They do have the authority to do so for collision investigations, weather and the like. Major difference.

The legal advice they get is often abysmal, if they even seek it. They only have two AAGs for the whole agency (which has a variety of roles and a staffing level of almost 2K across all duties. My county has 5 civil attorneys for 400-ish staff and we stay busy. The legal training generally at WSP is some of the worst I have ever seen. I have referred to them as an "adhocracy" for years. Their litigation history over pretty clear misconduct at the command level is awful. The troopers are generally pretty good. Command? Ugh.
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Last edited by Doug M.; 12-08-2021 at 12:34 AM. Reason: I still can't type or proofread
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Old 12-06-2021, 01:41 PM
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Got it.

In the NMSP, I was promoted to captain and sent to HQ in Santa Fe. There I learned my worst fears about HQ were grossly inadequate. Both they and I were pleased when they 'punished' me with a field command to get me out of their odd little world.
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Old 12-06-2021, 01:49 PM
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We have a retired Assistant Chief on the Brady list. He retired the day after a trooper got a $1M jury verdict in a whistleblower retaliation lawsuit. Perjury was alleged, probably true. Incompetence is a no-brainer. He is not an outlier to me.

Know one Captain pretty well, decent guy. He has refused multiple promotion offers for reasons similar to your experience.
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Old 12-06-2021, 01:57 PM
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The real issue about incompetence in command is 'impunity.' Mostly no one sues anyone except the chief, and the folks in the exec staff are careful to have plausible deniability in each and every action and decision.

Incidentally, I found this too be pretty much true in the Philippine National Police, Indonesian National Police, Iraqi Ministry of the Interior, and nearly all of Bosnia & Herzegovina' 17 agencies, especially Republka Srpska. My hard-learned belief is that nearly all executive functions should be handled by civilian employees and be reviewed by utterly independent civilian boards with power to discipline all commissioned and civilian personnel from reprimand to termination. You'll find such results in far fewer disciplinary actions for petty rule violations and far more terminations for brutality and corruption.

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Old 12-07-2021, 11:26 PM
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No, but you can't hit them and must use 'due care' to avoid collision.

"In every event, speed shall be so controlled by the driver as may be necessary:

(1) to avoid colliding with a person, vehicle or other conveyance on or entering the highway..."
So there is a court case right now in ( I think) Austin Tx. A Military officer moonlighting as a Uber driver to make some extra dollars gets stopped on the freeway during a riot. People are trying to over turn the car, smashing this windows with bricks. A person with his face covered approaches the car with an AK-47 pointed at the driver. Drives shoots same with handgun. A year later he's charged with homicide. Even if innocent think about the trauma, bail, jail time, lawyer fees, and upcoming trial.
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