Did the parents provide a firearm to him, knowing that he likely had mental illness? If so, i think that could be a crime. And one that is less complex evaluate than homicide charges against them.

This will be an interesting case to watch and see what their criminal culpability turns out to be. It may be a case of our society increasing responsibilities on ourselves. The outcome will likely determine if this is a new template in mass shooting cases.

The parents were arrested in Detroit early this morning (Saturday). Police found them hiding in the basement of a commercial building after receiving a tip. The parents did not break and enter. According to police, they were given access to the basement by a third party, who could potentially face charges. I would post a link to the NY Post article, but I have become leery of posting articles, having no control of the associated content.

I trust the story will be available when you wake up on whatever source you depend upon for breaking news . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

If negligent parenting conforms to being an accessory to their child's actions, we better begin to build bigger jails..... .

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I absolutely DISAGREE!

I raised 4 children, 3 of them were great but the youngest was constantly in trouble. Ended up committing suicide in his thirty's.
And I have seen many other families that have similar stories.

I watched the press conference where the prosecutor announced the charges
and there was no comment on an arraignment having been scheduled.
The charges were announced on live tv without the lawyer OR the sherriff's dept being notified. Major screw up!

Mom texted son AFTER she heard about the shooting.

So here's another question:

Public school boards are now attempting to usurp the role of parents teaching their kids and instilling values. They assert that parents have no right to tell them what they can teach.

Does this mean the teachers also accept criminal responsibility for the actions of the students?

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Common sense isn't so common.

When I was 14 my dad bought me a shotgun for my birthday.. We were duck hunters. When he gave it to me there was a long list of do's and don't that went along with my privilege of having the gun.

Yep, interesting comment....think about that one and potential ramifications. As stated before, this is a BIG can of worms and they are very vindictive worms in that can.

Was the Sig dad’s or junior’s xmas present?

I think most of us had real guns by the time we were 12. During hunting season I had a loaded (empty chamber) 20 ga and 06 hanging in the window rack of my unlocked 63 Chevy, while parked at school. Brought em in the coaches office during away football games. Dad was chief of police.

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213th FBINA

All too frequently here in FL does a child gain access to a firearm, and the result is a dead child, sibling, playmate, or other family member. And FL does have safe-storage laws. However, charges against the parents are something of a rarity, the usual attitude being--they've suffered enough.

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I agree with billwill, a BIG can of vindictive worms is in the process of being opened.

There is something here that doesn't sit well with me. I was in the classroom for 28 years before I retired, and I'm now completing my 7th year as a school board member. I have never ever heard of a parent refusing to remove a student from the school when the school presented concerns over the student's stability. Generally, the administration would suspend the student and require proof of psychiatric evaluation and treatment before allowing the student to return. Had parents refused, the school would have been in the right to suspend/expel the student and petition the state to intercede in the student's welfare under the age old provision of "in loco parentis". Had the SRO been present, I would suspect state intervention could have been implemented easier and faster, and lives could have been saved.

Sadly, I am afraid that there is more here than meets the eyes!

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Judge control not gun control!

Saw the arraignment and bond setting and was VERY disapointed . Clear that the prosecution did everything possible to make this a media circus. VERY disapointed indeed. Bond is way disproportionate to the risk of flight and danger to the community and is very vindictive.

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Forum consigliere

I agree, we have developed a culture where too many public servants play a roll for the media for personal gain rather than do their jobs

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Live long and prosper

I call gun ownership a right, not some “privilege”? Is the Constitution and Bill of Rights a privilege?

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Sure you did

I agree with you 1,000,000 %. Some of the comments here raise Monday morning quarterbacking to a new level.

Separately, it seems the Prosecutor is allowing her personal feelings into this - a big No No. The only facts to the best of my knowledge are the cherry-picked comments from prosecution. The media (including so called conservative outlets) are all over the place from acting as if they are the police, being counselors, being school officials. More speculation that anything. It is disgusting.

For sure this is a horrible tragedy in every way and I am so sorry for the families. With that though, I plan to wait all the facts to be presented and let the jury(ies) decide.

Nothing says 'I'm not guilty' like hiding, then running, from police.

The police department received a 911 call from a business owner who observed the married couple’s vehicle — a black 2021 Kia Seltos SUV — in his parking lot on Bellevue near Jefferson in Detroit early Saturday morning, McCabe said.

A woman was observed near the vehicle, McCabe said. When the business owner called 911, she fled on foot. An “extensive search” by Detroit police and K-9 units led to both of the fugitives. The two will be transported to the Oakland County Jail this morning, McCabe said.
Manhunt ends: Parents of accused Oxford school shooter arrested in Detroit - nj.com

Negligent parents where one of their kids kills a sibling.
Negligent parents where one of their kids kills a kid from another family.... maybe yours... different reality.

Boating accident with kids and no life jackets on board or worn... sad but true.

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Have Fun/Stay Safe

You are 1000% right because look at Sandy Hook. Kid got the gun from mom…after he killed her. Evil is evil.

Like another post said, there is a lot of this story we haven’t seen yet. Just like the kenosha shooting.

Our society’s problem and now our country’s problem begin with the media. It has become such a corrupt being over the last 30 years. It used to be such a great asset to our society. Until the American public hold them accountable, most will only see what they want us to see.


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I've just retired from 15 years of teaching at a Title 1 High School after a prior 40 years working for a living iin the "real world." Flame away but we have completely abandoned creating "productive, innovative citizens" for a focus on cranking out "homogenous, cooperative farm animals." These parents and their boy are the "downer cattle" of this process. Don't see that changing anytime soon. Joe

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Wisdom chases me; I'm faster

In NM a magistrate would set bond off a schedule; making the police come get you after someone calls 911 would add cost, as would the withdrawal of $4k if the prosecutor made an an issue of it. A bond hearing in District (trial) cour is where I usually saw more individualized bond re-set, but every state is difeerent, and you've surely seen a LOT more than have I.

According to the attorney they were paid so I siuspect the $4k was a retainer payment to the attorney. Anyway we shall let it play out if the court and see what happens

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Forum consigliere

Unfortunately it appears a lot of people (including prosecutors) don't know the difference between justice and vengeance.

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Common sense isn't so common.

Regarding parent responsibility....
If a child goes into the crowded theater, airport, church, etc. and yells "fire or bomb or gun" and as the crowd rushes for the exits, people are injured or stomped to death, could the parents be held responsible for failure to properly secure the child's brain or tongue? Even if the child was taught that behavior of that type was not allowed?
Similar to the post from Cajunlawyer and the automobile.
A mess all around that [U]may[U] have been prevented by intervention? This prosecution could open a very slippery slope. I hope the courts can sort this out and provide a resolution.

There is a difference in poor parenting and mental illness. My nephew has been diagnosed with Schizophrenia. I am not apologist for these parent's but want folks to understand that it is very difficult dealing with mental illness in children.

In my nephew's case he was fine until about 14 when he started acting out in school. My sister was called in to the school and worked with the counselors etc. to try to correct his behavior which continued to become more erratic as he got older ultimately resulting in his expulsion from school.

I won't go into great detail, but we learned that this illness tends to start affecting behavior in the early teen years. He was finally diagnosed, but it has been a long hard road for her and the family. Everyone seems to believe there are solutions to everything, but sometimes there are not. Mental illnesses that are chronic are a lifelong battle attempting to find medications that assist and balance those medications over time.

My sister is a dedicated involved parent who had him in private schools. provided the best health care available and continues to do everything possible to ensure his health and safety. So, it is not always external failures resulting in delinquent children.

Now, if he came over to the house would I lock up all the guns? Yes. The thing I realize is there is a window of time that parents, school officials and even medical personnel are unaware of the extent of the illness of the child. Again, not making excuses but until you have experienced it, it is really hard to have an understanding of what could have been happening.

Could it be a simple case of parental failure and their contributing to his delinquency? Might be.

The courts will have to decide. Unfortunately, the press, law enforcement the schools the parents are all looking out for their own interests or attempting to advance their own agendas.

This is a sad situation all around. It may not be mental illness, but it may be.

From the posts discussing parental responsibility laws, my interpretation is that if a child messes up badly enough the parent can be charged with 'being a bad parent'.

Those laws don't say the parent is guilty of the crime committed by the child.

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Common sense isn't so common.

What kind of parents abandon their child by running away?????

I taught both of my sons how to shoot when they were pre-schoolers. The Marlin Model 15YN that they used is tucked into the back of my safe.

I enrolled them both as NRA Life Members when they were kids, and they knew The Rules before they knew the alphabet.

I can't count all the summer days we spent at my rifle club, punching holes in paper...great fun, and a terrific way to hone their patience, hand-eye coordination, and sense of responsibility...

For Christmas in 2001, I gave my younger son, then 15, a beautiful Colt Commander that had been massaged by Wayne Novak. I explained to him that while it was "his" gun, it would stay in my safe unless we were going to the range, and that if he kept his nose clean, I would transfer it to him when he turned 21. (He's a federal law enforcement agent today, and that Colt is in his own safe.)

As much as I trusted my sons, I would never, ever have allowed them unsupervised access to my guns.

I am still shaking my head over the facts in this case...it makes me want to scream...

The media needs to report the news and leave their opinions in the trash can next to their desk.

I agree...the known facts in this case are bad enough.

Something has certainly changed in our beloved Republic. We all had guns and access to guns at a young age.(started shooting at 9-10) Did the thought of doing something like this EVER cross our minds??

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No baby we aint

I think the first time Dad took me shooting I was 6.

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Common sense isn't so common.

Actually, the charges filed don’t require that.

Note the little but essential word “involuntary” in the charges filed. That means they will talk about a lot of unreasonable behaviors which (unintentionally) facilitated the deaths.

The parents’ actions will be examined under the “reasonable person” angle, especially resisting the school’s effort to remove the kid from class that day and failing to mention or at least immediately check on the status of that gun after being confronted with the evidence. The mother’s “don’t get caught” message to her kid from the previous day ain’t gonna help.

So how is a $500k cash-only bond for a couple who have already failed to show up at their first arraignment on four charges of attempted manslaughter, did their best to flee justice, and evade and elude capture disproportionate to the risk of them not showing up - again?

If you can come up with another "more reasonable" method to guarantee their appearance at their SECOND arraignment short of bankrupting them and their family we would certainly be willing to listen to it.

[QUOTE

I am still shaking my head over the facts in this case...it makes me want to scream... [/QUOTE]

And just what are the facts?
You can NOT trust the media to present "facts" without some fiction.

I live 5 miles from the school where the shooting occurred. I was a member of the Oakland County Sheriffs Dept for about 23 years (been out of it for several years) I have a clue how these things go. I worked under the current sheriff, I really believe the prosecutor blind sided the OCSD by publicly announcing charges without informing them first.
Lawyer for parents also claims they were not notified either.
There are a ton of so called "facts" discussed here that may or may not be true.

Maybe we should wait and see how the case goes before we blame anybody but the finger on the trigger.

Well, the arrestee count may go up by one more...

Police are looking to charge a person who assisted in hiding the parents of the suspected Michigan school shooter.

James and Jennifer Crumbley were arrested inside a Detroit art studio at 1:30 a.m. on Saturday morning, Oakland County Sheriff Michael Bouchard told reporters at a press conference later that day. A witness called the police after seeing their car parked outside, he said, adding that someone had let them into the building.

"We believe they were assisted in that location to get there, to get in," Bouchard said, saying the prosecutors could charge the individual who allegedly assisted them with aiding and abetting or obstruction of justice. Sheriff: Police looking to charge person who allegedly helped hide parents of suspected school shooter | TheHill

The Eighth Amendment prohibits the imposition of excessive bail. Same Bill of Rights that contains the Second Amendment . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I'd bet there'll be a bond hearing with the trial court within days.

I am not a lawyer in Michigan and have not studied up on involuntary manslaughter since preparing for the bar exam in a state other than Michigan. However, IMHO there are at least three reasons why a charge of involuntary manslaughter will not pass judicial review and the parents will not be tried for involuntary manslaughter:

1) Assuming Michigan is like most other states, involuntary manslaughter requires that the act of the person charged must be the proximate cause of a person's death. Here, it is not reasonably expected that giving a 15 year old unfettered access to handgun will result in an intentional murder.

2) The act of the shooter seems to be an intervening cause that led to the homicides. Charging the 15 year old as an adult supports the defense that the 15 year old was the intervening cause, negating proximate causation by the parents.

3) I believe Michigan does not have a safe firearm storage statute. The fact that Michigan chose to not enact a crime for storing a firearm so that it could be accessed by a minor goes a long way to arguing that in this case the parents' inaction was NOT involuntary manslaughter. I am curious if Michigan ever tried to get a safe storage act passed.

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You've made a good, solid, logical assessment of the possible legal situation in this case. And you might be right...the parents might very well be found to have broken no laws.

But I don't know how they'll ever get a peaceful night's sleep again....

Here are the "facts" I was referring to...

1. Parents didn't secure the handgun they'd just bought against unauthorized use by their son.

2. The son took said gun to his school, killed four students, and wounded a number of others.

Now then...unless you think "the media" is lying about the very core of this story, I don't need to know any more than that in order to say that the parents of the shooter did something extremely irresponsible.

Did they break the law? I don't know. But I think it's evident that at the very least, they used extremely poor judgment.

I was just stating what was in the WSJ, which is there are two sides to every story (not even saying I believe it). However both the Sheriff and Deputy Sheriff were upset the DA announced on TV the charges BEFORE notifying the Sheriff's dept. I'm not trying to defend the parents but it seems maybe the DA wants to make headlines.

Item 1: In the local media the father claimed it was in a dresser drawer, another report says it was locked in the mothers nightstand.
Which one is fact, if any?

Item 2: That does appear to be a "fact".

I'll give you a 50%.

So many things done wrong on so many levels.
Plenty of blame to go around, much of it is well deserved.

My point is that $500k in this case, with the actions these defendants have already taken, is not necessarily considered "excessive" - and therefore not a violation of the 8th Amendment. The courts have an duty to protect the common good, and insuring these people show up for their next set of hearings and the trial certainly seems like the common good to me.

Since they have already shown by their own actions a willingness to flee and elude justice, then a large cash-only bond makes the raising (and potential forfeiture) of it good insurance but not absolutely impossible for average middle-class folks with extended families. Unless they were rich, $5M would have been "excessive", but not $500K...

So far the courts support this reasoning, and if someone can come up with another method other than cash bail and bond then I would certainly be willing to listen. It's apparent that additional prison time or other punishment is not much of a deterrent to those who are willing to flee in the first place.

I have no reason to doubt the timeline you mention or the reporting of the WSJ, but unless I'm mistaken the Sheriff's Department is not required to be notified before any charges are announced. That would be a courtesy only. I won't disagree that the timing of everything could be better, but so far I can't find anything actually improper, inappropriate or illegal in how things have so far progressed.

I'm not willing to get bent out of shape over what is essentially an unimportant administrative detail involving interagency courtesy. Find something actually illegal that will honestly affect the outcome of this case and I will wave the red flag with you.

I'm thinking and looking it at from the perspective of the parents of the four dead kids.... What is going through their minds....?

What do they think about the actions of the shooters parents? Before, during and after the fact?

Do the dead kids parents think that despite the Crumbley's being shown drawings of their teenage child shooting kids, and after being told this by school officials still refused to take him out of school, and that they didn't at the least... check on the whereabouts of the gun and ammo they just bought him right than and there....do the dead kids parents think it's still unfair to charge the Crumbley's with a crime?

Do they think they think that 500k is a "unreasonable" amount of bail.... because there is probably a good reason that they missed a court date, and were hiding in basement of a building really close to the Canadian border?

I wonder if they are gun owners, and if they think the Crumbley's acted like reasonable, responsible, safety conscious gun owners should?

The fact that they didn't pull that kid out of school. find and confiscate that gun, and get that kid some help infuriates me. They had a chance to stop it, and they did nothing. They ruined four innocent families lives...not to mention their own son who is going to live a nightmare for the rest of his life. I blame them as much if not more than the teenager.

I think Michigan does have a law requiring firearms to be secured from being accessible by children.

So I guess a question is did he have access to it, or was it secured somehow and he broke in?

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Common sense isn't so common.

If parents are to be held responsible for acts of an offspring charged as adult, Why can't no bail administrators, lenient judges, negligent P O's, see no evil school boards, representatives calling for violence against opponents, on and on, be held likewise?

But then we may all be locked down and made to apply for "liberty cards" as well as vax cards.

I mean nothing political or religious.

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