Nope, not gonna say it. Joe

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Wisdom chases me; I'm faster

Unless it’s somehow a political issue to you, I don’t see why we can’t discuss sources. With pretty much unlimited world media at your finger tips, most of it available in English, your ability to arrive at your own conclusions is only limited by yourself.

Here’s a link to Russia’s official voice abroad:

RT - Breaking news, shows, podcasts

For me the question is, what does Russia really gain by invading/ conquering the Ukraine? "What am I missing here? What resources does Putin pick up that make it worth the risk? Forgive my ignorance.

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Robert
SWCA #2906, SWHF #760

Do you know how many countries in the world would be happy to see that happen? It's a lot, and you might be very surprised to learn who some of them are.

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Release the Kraken

What's motivating Ukraine is they were working slowly, steadily on EU accession (to join the EU requires that you meet difficult standards) and likely would have made it in 10 years. That was their goal when they gave up old Soviet nukes at our, the UK's, and Russians' request in 1994. We (the US) were helping them get modernized and to clean up corruption in small ways, as was the EU. Russia doesn't want that, so they invaded a country that had been independent over 31 years.

It's really that simple.

If you don't believe the US based media, then look at the English language output from the overseas sources.

You seem to have missed other events that clearly demonstrate what a monster Putin is. He does not tolerate defiance, by individuals or by countries he believes should be under the Russian thumb.

One guy was poisoned with polonium, and another Russian critic and his daughter were poisoned by Novichok nerve agent smeared on their front door in England. UK doctors saved those two, but the delivery system was a perfume spray recovered by a female dumpster diver. She is now dead, and her partner barely survived. Others have also been tagged with Novichok.

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Release the Kraken

Besides what Biku has just stated
in Post #107,
add to it Putin's dream to restore
Russia to its former glory as an
empire and his hatred of NATO
which was and is a force
against Russian expansionism.

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Ubi Est Mea

This is what Russia does. This is how Ukrainian patriots respond.


Defiant final words as all Ukrainian soldiers on Zmiinyi Island are killed – BalkansTimes

Ukrainian border guards protecting Snake Island reportedly refused to surrender to Russian attackers and were all killed.

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has confirmed that Zmiinyi Island – also known as Snake Island – has fallen to Russian forces, with all defenders killed in the desperate battle.

The tiny island, located in the Black Sea in the Odessa region, plays an important role in delimiting Ukrainian territorial waters.


Audio reportedly captured shortly before the bloody attack shows Ukrainian soldiers remained defiant despite the overwhelming odds against them.

According to a translation shared by BuzzFeed correspondent Christopher Miller, who spent 11 years based in Ukraine and eastern Europe, Russians forces ordered the defenders to surrender.

“This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed and unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you’ll be bombed,” the Russians said.

The Ukrainian response was simple, and powerful: “Russian warship, go **** yourself”.

Defiant final words as all Ukrainian soldiers on Zmiinyi Island are killed | news.com.au — Australia’s leading news site

I saw the story about Snake Island earlier and my blood ran cold. A dastardly act.

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Music/Sports/Beer fan

No sanctions on Russian oil and gas exports?

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Sure you did

Gee, “ Those that forget History are doomed to repeat” is all I’ll say.

Pffffttt. The news never has body.

The day that it was announced that Putin was "preparing", you know what made the entire front page of the daily news?

"Wah wah wah cry cry wimper wimper, the football team lost the playoffs."

Here's some neutral Ukraine news: Russian forces said to lose tanks, troops as Ukraine pushes back | The Times of Israel Ukraine claims it killed or captured 800 Russian troops, destroyed 30 tanks & downed 7 jets on 1st day of invasion

Photo from earlier this week
purportedly showed two
Russian soldiers who were
young looking.

In the Isreal Times photos,
the purported Russian POWs
were much older and even
a bit paunchy.

I am always a bit skeptical
of such photos that they are
set-ups and not totally honest.

But no doubt the Russians have
taken some punishment
regardless of the authenticity
of the photos.

An aerial blast over Kyiv last
night definitely had to
be a Russian plane or rocket
being destroyed.

On Colbert last night, Russian
expert Julia Ioffe mentioned that
the U.S. has provided Ukraine training
in insurgency, the very type of
insurgency used against allied
forces in Iraq (and possibly
Afghanistan).

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Ubi Est Mea

I just read that 2000 Russian citizens have been arrested for protesting putins war and spreading disinformation. I wonder if he enlisted twitter and facebook to help him fight disinformation?

Raising the price at the pump only helps Putin's economy, we need to work on lowering the price of oil. This is about the only reason we need any relationship with the Saudis or am I being naive?

Given the fact that most electronic media are still operational, I have been a bit surprised by the paucity of actual material.

All day there was footage of the same couple of explosions, some distant flashes in the night, and the same damaged apartment in Kyiv, apparently from a wayward missile strike.

And in international media, no Russian military propaganda footage; if things were going well, you’d think there’d be at least the usual imagery of advancing tanks with waving soldiers and some artillery firing.

But nothing. Whatever the Russians are managing to pull off, this isn‘t “shock and awe”.

The most ominous talk from
Putin is the not so veiled
threat of using nuclear arms.

Julia Ioffe, whom I mentioned
earlier, commented today
about Putin's hatred of the U.S.
which has been growing
and festering for the last
35 years.

I personally see him as a sore
loser and if things don't work
out his way in Ukraine, he's
capable of upping the ante.
Like many dictators, he doesn't
care about his people, only
his own ego.

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Ubi Est Mea

Yes, but did you see what they said to the Russians before they blew them up?
PRICELESS!

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How many guns are too many?

When you broadcast fear and indecision in Afghanistan you have to expect the wolves to make their move. Question is what does China get for their support of this? Russia's support for their invasion of Taiwan? This is only act 1 of a long scripted and thought out play we are only slowly beginning to understand. We have for practical purposes washed our hands of Ukraine, but if no one stops him now, he will keep going. He is following Hitler's lead and thinking he is too smart to make the same mistakes. We are obviously following Neville Chamberlains playbook and have no idea what we are doing other than lip service and hoping Putin goes away on his own.

I thought for sure that China was going to invade Taiwan at the same time Russia invaded Ukraine. It can still happen though.

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How many guns are too many?

The Chamberlain analysis only works if there was a written agreement to hand over the Donbas. Hitler got nothing in the way of sanctions, nor did anyone continue to arm, advise, and share intel with the Czechs.

I think you are probably right. But, I really, really, really, hope you and I are wrong.

Why don't we just turn on the Keystone pipeline instead of using strategic petroleum reserves????

The Keystone was always oversold by both supporters and opponents. It was a symbolic football. All the Canadian oil it would have carried is getting where it needs to go by the existing pipelines, rail and ship. It’s not a magic spigot that gives us more oil.

An observation and question. Watching these event over the last few days I have noticed the Russians forces seem to be missing two abilities needed in modern war, air power and the ability to operate at night.

One would expect real air power domination. The type of shock and awe we demonstrated in Iraq. Haven’t seen that yet.

Second it seems like the operations, including ground troops, stand down every night, could it be a weakness, can’t operate at night?

Now they maybe just being cautious but that isn’t what we have always been told how the Russians operate. One would expect a more aggressive and dominant operation. Haven’t really seen that. One would think that a force of 150K should be able take Kyiv rather quickly, even with the awesome defense put up by the Ukrainian resistance. Maybe the Russian military is really isn’t on board with this operation?

A lot a vets here. What you all think of the Russians military operations, strictly from a military strategy view point?

One thing for sure. Our military is getting a lot of intelligence on what the real world Russian military capabilities and methods are.

MANPADs (the Ukrainian air force is basically non-existent) make close air support bloody. In addition, Russia has never had the quantity of night vision devices we have had for individual soldiers since the early 2000s.

My guess is worth what you paid for it.

I’ll answer my own question. Europe, and America are dependent on Russian energy.

Why Sanctions on Russia Aren'''t Targeting Oil and Gas | Time

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Sure you did

I've been thinking about this whole situation. To me, it seems hypocritical to condemn a country for doing what our government has been doing for decades. I mean, Russia is attempting to do what the US has done - invade a country/conduct military ops, kill a bunch folks with the seemingly ultimate goal of installing a friendly government.

US ops off the top of my head:

Operation Farm Gate
Operation Ranch Hand
Operation 34a
I don't know what/if there's an operational name for Vietnam
Operation Power Pack
Operation Urgent Fury
Operation Just Cause
Operation Restore Hope
Operation Uphold Democracy
Operation Allied Force
Operation Enduring Freedom
Operation Infinite Justice - Iraqi Freedom
Operation Odyssey Dawn
Operation Inherent Resolve

I'm sure there's many more ops, ongoing ones we don't know about, other actions, like, rigging elections and such, but, I think you all get the point. I'm not justifying nor condemning, actions, I'm simply making an observation.

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Thread Killer.

Putin picks up 40 million unhappy citizens to try to rule

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Too Soon Old, Too Late Schmart

Over and over again

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Too Soon Old, Too Late Schmart

If we open the pipelines and begin drilling refining etc., we not only lower the price at the pumps, the U.S. also makes income from the export sale of the oil and LNG. It only makes sense to do this.

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Too Soon Old, Too Late Schmart

Hitler planned to take over Europe as is Russia is doing. China will be eyeballing Tiawan as Japan tried to take over Asia.

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Too Soon Old, Too Late Schmart

Your observation as to our government’s behavior is quite correct.

However, every action has a context. And the context determines whether one finds that action justified or not. All the actions you’ve listed have been the subject of vigorous debate in the country, always afterwards, sometimes as in the case of Iraq even beforehand. And especially during the Cold War, we did engage in some interventions that were as perfidious as what Putin is trying today, like Iran and Guatemala in the 1950s.

But those operations had their specific historic context. This is now, and it is certainly not hypocritical to judge Putin’s actions against his justifications and international law.

It’s pretty obvious who the bad guy is. I certainly do not feel restrained from rooting for the victim rather than the perpetrator by some misapplied moral relativism.

They can get the night vision equipment from the Afghans who inherited them.

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Too Soon Old, Too Late Schmart

Um, the Russians that killed about 1.2 million Afghans? Perhaps not.

Which equipment? What systems are they integrated with? Night vision equipment has been around 70+ years. It isn't particularly useful if it doesn't work with your gear. In some cases using it in a non permissive environment can be hazardous to your health.

Tacit acceptance is an agreement. Financially sanctioning individuals who take whatever they want from half of Asia is hardly a sanction. Our weapons and advice are hardly meaningful without the trained soldiers to use them. The Ukraine will put up a fight maybe as well as the Finns in the Winter War, but we all know the outcome if NATO does not intervene. Russia can easily replace their manpower losses, and will be happy to take our weapons (but they have their own advice) from Ukraine.

We can disagree, no problem.

Added: The EUCOM Office of Defense Cooperation has a robust mission with Ukraine, and has had for many years. From the Embassy website:

U.S. European Command’s (EUCOM) Office of Defense Cooperation (ODC) partners with Ukraine’s Ministry of Defense and Armed Forces to provide military equipment, training, familiarization events, and educational opportunities in order to support the modernization of Ukraine’s military and bilateral foreign policy objectives, while engaging at the tactical, operational, and strategic levels.

Key programs administered by the ODC include Foreign Military Sales / Foreign Military Financing (FMS/ FMF) primarily for purchase or U.S. grant provision of military equipment and training; the International Military Education and Training (IMET) program, which provides educational opportunities in the U.S. for Ukrainian military personnel; and the Bilateral Military-to-Military program (Mil-Mil), consisting of annual military training and familiarization events.

Other major programs include the U.S. Ministry of Defense Advisor team, the Doctrine, Education, and Advisory team, and EUCOM’s Humanitarian Assistance Program, which provides construction and renovation assistance to schools, orphanages, and other Ukrainian essential service providers. The overarching security cooperation / assistance objective of all programs is to promote stability, democratization, military professionalism, and closer relationships with NATO, while fostering stronger military partnership ties and improved bilateral defense compatibility.

Additionally, the ODC, in conjunction with the State of California, administers the State Partnership Program (SPP), which in 2018 celebrated 25 years of partnership with Ukraine. The SPP provides the platform for a long-term California – Ukraine partnership, and directly supports both the goals of the U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine and Commander, U.S. European Command. Additionally, the Adjutant General of the California National Guard facilitates partnerships with Ukraine throughout the state and local governments in California as well as the private sector.

Then there's our Defense Attaché Office:

The Defense Attaché Office (DAO) is a Joint-Service Department of Defense office that advises the Ambassador and Country Team on all defense and security matters and provides timely, accurate information to senior leaders on defense and security issues affecting Ukraine and the region.

Comprised of representatives from all four branches of the United States military, the DAO liaises across a broad spectrum within the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine. In cooperation with their Ukrainian military counterparts, members of the DAO execute events and programs associated with both the Security Cooperation and the European Command (EUCOM) Military-to-Military contact plans that build Ukrainian Armed Forces combat capabilities and advance the Ukrainian military toward NATO interoperability.

Charlie Wilson's War (film - Wikipedia)

Seems historically relative, or will be soon.

Trying to equate the lead up to the current situation with Chamberlain is a futile exercise. Back then there was no satellite intel, and precious little clandestine photo recce because most gentlemen respected another gentleman's borders. ( what a concept) Besides, the Brits finally released most of their secret files from that period after 60+ years, and the information therein blurs the lines as to whether Chamberlain was an appeaser or bought time for Britain to rearm. As is often the case, the truth probably lies in between, or even a little off to the side.

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Release the Kraken

I have been following this as closely as I can from a multitude of online sources to get a layman's perspective on this madness. My takeaway is that the old adage is true: "the first casualty in war is often the truth".

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Music/Sports/Beer fan

I call it like I see it.

I'm under no illusions. Nine times out of ten, the aggressor is the bad guy, just like now. I feel for the Ukrainian people.

Invading, killing folks while overthrowing a government for political advantage is wrong - no matter who is doing it.

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Thread Killer.

I see Putin as an advanced chess player. Taking Crimea was just a move. Encircling most of Ukraine, another move. Testing the world is a move. It is more his objective: to see what with and how the world responds.

I see China as a threat to much more than most see them as. I'm thankful their leader has not lost control.

Putin is using his tanks after seeing what the A10s do to tanks. He has defense systems to shoot down most aircraft, except maybe low-flying ones that turn on a whiz. The A10 is a super tank killer.

What percentile of Putin's military strength is he using? Anyone? How would he feel about being attacked from the North? Straight to Moscow?

Only a devil would start a nuclear war, as there would be much fire and dust. Much radiation.

I would sit in the seat to end this if they would only allow it. Putin's aggression, unanswered by force, will be a world problem much sooner than we think. Ukraine is a move.

American lives have to live with themselves, too. We put Noriega in prison. We stopped the missile crisis. America can either help now or wait until he is stronger and deal with him. American lives will be lost sooner or later. It will be an endgame move.

I would hate to see America attacked with nobody that would help us. We should never show our hand, but parts of it like Putin is doing. We are not learning anything from this but about our integrity around the world.

There is a time and a place for everything under the sun. He waited to do this for 30 years. Time is up. He waited too long. Germany needs to step up and help the world, too. Kuwait was miserable, but this requires men with nerves of steel. Allow Putin to continue, and it will be like getting the taste of blood in their mouths.

Yes, money is tight now. If we think it is tight now, just wait until later.

It is time to make physical moves now. Yes, politics needs to be left out of it.

Sadly what should be a discussion of real world current events, this tread has become a ticking time bomb waiting to be locked. My prayers and support to all who defend their freedom. Huge respect to the president of Ukrainian. A true patriot and brave man. Goodnight .

Attached Images

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Previously wished for something similar to the failed Operation Valkyrie in WWII Germany. Putin has misjudged this and could very well be taken out by some internal faction who sees the handwriting on the wall.The Germans overextended in Russia without having the necessary supply chain to back them up and now Putin makes the same mistake.

To repeat myself, I still wonder
how rock solid the Russian
army is and whether its morale
is any good.

I'm wondering, also, if in finally
meeting/confronting the Ukraines,
including many civilians,
a lot of doubt has been sown
among Russian forces, that doubt
mainly being, "What the heck are
we doing here? These people
certainly don't see us as liberators
or saviours."

Totally wishful thinking on my part,
but just maybe the Russian
military will turn on Putin by at
least tempering his ambitions.
(Trouble is, from a photo I saw of
Putin with some generals, all those
dudes look like nasty Soviet era
curmudgeons.)

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Ubi Est Mea

A follow up on my comments
about the Russian army:

In looking over many photos
with Putin and soldiers, everything
is very solemn and formal, no smiles,
no spontaneity. In comparison it
seems that no matter which president
of the U.S. visits troops, there always
seems to be lots of smiles and
handshakes and selfies.


Once was asked how to tell the good
guys from the bad guys. Answer,
the bad guy's soldiers must
goosestep while the good guy's
soldiers can march like normal
human beings.

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Ubi Est Mea

Can I say this? Putin better hope he has good bodyguards. Someone may have an alternate idea on how to end this war.