I'd say that Ed Mireles was a gun guy and "true believer". He was actually a firearms instructor later and assigned to the Firearms Training Unit for a while (not sure how long). I'm not 100% certain, but I believe he gives his talk to every new agent class that goes through Quantico and anybody there from state/local LE that's going through the National Academy can attend as it's really different hearing it from the horse's mouth. I remember him saying that at the very end it was step, step, front sight, trigger press....step, step...front sight trigger press. Someone said they took the empty gun out of his hand and he was still clicking away. I'm not sure if he was military prior to the Bureau...would be interesting to know and I'm sure it would be documented somewhere.

Most of the guys there that I know from FTU (my old boss was there for a long time) are fellow true believers. Not all of them are really gun guys in the sense of owning lots of guns and such, but I'd say they often more of the gunfighter mindset. They take their craft VERY seriously and literally tear every little thing down to the finest point to come up with the best training they can possibly give to new agents. Some are PPC champions, Olympic caliber bullseye shooters, outstanding USPSA/IDPA shooters...you name it.

I don't know if anybody has ever come up with a good reason for why Platt and Matix went bad. There's some good evidence that the two may have actually killed each other's wife shortly before the crime spree. If you look up reports on them you'll see that one of the wives "committed suicide" with a shotgun in her mouth...a little odd to say the least. Platt was actually a Ranger and not SF as far as I know. Matix was an MP.

It really would be interesting to know what caused them to switch gears so radically. I do know that bank robbers don't tend to be the most intellectual of criminals, with the exception of the really complex jobs. Often it seems they're folks pushed to the edge by other factors to the point that it suddenly makes sense. That's probably why there seems to be an uptick in bank hold ups now. Heck, I arrested a female bank robber who didn't even tell the getaway driver that she was going to rob the bank!

Now that I think about it, Dove, Grogan and Hanlon all had Smith 459s. R,

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USPSA TY23298

Thanks, Bart.

I've done some reading this afternoon on this subject on other sites, and my question is more or less about the revolvers used. I understand that the validity of the 9mm round was in question after the shootout, and that is one of the primary reasons that the 10mm round was selected and the S&W 1076 was picked as the weapon to use it in. Just what exactly was the reasoning behind replacing the Model 13 revolvers? Were they deemed insufficient as well?

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MARK

Weapon capacity/reloading issues were at least a sub-factor.

Be safe.

Hi:
During a class I was attending after this "Incident" each member was asked how He/She would have "Handled" the "Stop".
When My turn came I said that knowing that these two violent Felons would resist and was armed with high power weapons,plus would not be taken alive,I would have an unmarked unit with two Officer pull along side of the suspects' vehicle, and "Shotgun" both suspects through the windows.
This went over with the Instructor like a lead baloon.
Jimmy

One of the issues found with the revolvers was that reloading them one handed was pretty hard. One of the agents took a hit to the hand and parts of bone, skin, and muscle literally gunked up the cylinder when he tried to reload and if my memory is correct, I think he only got two rounds chambered because of it. I know that's pretty graphic, but as a learning point, I think it's worth noting.

One of the agents across the street emptied his primary gun and transitioned to his BUG (J-Frame) from his ankle. I think he took one or two shots and realized he was better off reloading his primary gun.

Today was actually our quarterly instructor shoot and I asked a couple of the senior guys about it and they directed me to a source where I can get most, if not all, of the answers but it will be mid-week next week before I can get to it. I believe it's an official source, but not restricted and was probably what was used to do the movies etc. I'm sure it'll have the breakdown of gun models by agent (and bad guys) etc....more to follow. R,

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USPSA TY23298

Interesting, if graphic, comments about one-handed revolver reloading.

I would think that similar (or worse) problems would present themselves with one-handed operation of autoloaders, especially if you had to rack the slide. As for contamination, if the slide (or the fresh mag) got gunked up with blood or tissue, seems like problems would be at least as bad as with a gunked up revolver. Am I wrong?

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You're shy a few manners.

Well, I guess the real answer is "it depends". In general I'd still say the auto is easier to reload one handed and stuff isn't as likely to get in the chamber, but anything can and will happen.

I can see scenarios both ways. Reloading an auto one handed isn't too hard normally. It should lock back, you drop the mag, wedge the gun under your armpit, into your belt/pants or wedged behind your knee, you insert the fresh mag and then either press the muzzle on something (if no solid guide rod is present) or hook the front of the rear sight on your belt, heel of your shoe or any 90* angle you can find and you're back in business. It's a lot harder to get the cylinder open with one hand, and then it wants to flop around while you're putting rounds in one at a time....it can be done, but it's more of a fine motor skill than gross motor skill and fine motor skills deteriorate very quickly under stress.

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USPSA TY23298

Loading and shooting a revolver one handed was taught long before 1986. (and it isn't that much different than loading an auto one handed either) I guess it must have been abandoned again by then. The suggestion that the outcome would have been different if the agents had semi autos is just as bad as if they had more powerful handguns. However those were two of the first things the gun "experts" jumped on after the shootout. The only new thing I can think of that came out of the FBI shootout was 'you have to have a high capacity semi auto'.

Firearms trainging changed a lot after 1986, but the result seemed to be officers shot worse during requalification than they did before. Within a few years of the shootout it was hard to tell by officers habits that it ever happened at all.

But what gets me the most is watching officers shoot for requalification. Don't they realize their life depends on their ability to use their weapons?

Oh, those agents were taught one-handed reloading their revolvers as well, but it simply is a more complex action compared with an auto. I can teach someone to one handed reload an auto reasonbly well in about two minutes and be able to expect they could do it under moderate stress. The same simply isn't true with a revolver.

It's certainly doable, but at least for one agent parts of his hand in the cylinder made it almost impossible which wouldn't have been the case with an auto. Autos have their own flaws, but reloading, in general, isn't one of them.

I know our qualifications changed and have kept some of the core elements learned from that incident....we start at 25yds and shoot 18 of our 50 rounds from there. If you can't hit from 25 you can't pass the course.

As an instructor I don't put too much emphasis on qual courses...they're a pop quiz where the questions are known in advance. I try to work with our folks to make them better shooters....really do training, not just qualifying. R,

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USPSA TY23298

G-ManBart, et alia:

Do not construe, please, any of my comments as a negative reflection on the SA's involved.

Much good has come as the result of the analysis of this incident. I always preface my classroom comments re: this (as with others) incident as NOT second guessing...it's learning.

Be safe.

Bart, Ohio used to do much of their re-qual at 25 yards, or more. After the Miami shootout they took the attitude of "most shootings occure at 5yds or less, so shooting at 25 doesn't make sense". The max distance was six rounds at 54 ft. and everthing else was 30ft or less. Since requalification is more competency than gunfight training I think the 25 yards at least taught the officers how to properly hold the firearm and get used to how it should feel. I was my departments reqaulification officer and also did a few smaller area departments that didn't have their own range. I noticed a lot of the guys had problems at the 54 ft mark and decided to have a few of them warm up by shooting 50 rounds at the 25 yard line, just for some extra practice. One guy from another dept. never even touched the paper, and he was supposed to be SWAT qualified. Just as I was retiring the state changed the standard course so it looks more like an IDPA match. I hit the roof! What they are making the officers do now should never be taught to anyone that might get into a real gunfight.

But as I said, it amazes me how indifferent the average officer was to firearms training. Our dept. provided unlimited ammunition and targets for anyone that wanted to practice on their own. There never was one taker in the whole eleven years I was there. A surprising number of them had a very hard time requalifying and usually took two to three times to pass. I constantly told them that I would be more than happy to work with any of them to help them, or if anyone wanted to work on more "tactical" training just let me know. Never a taker. It was always the same thing. They show up, shoot until they pass and then leave.

I never really considered reloading a revolver one handed as a complex action, I guess I've just been doing it so long it's second nature.

10-4....never thought that for a second. Personally, I try to be thoughtful/critical when looking at what happened, if not critical of the people involved. :-)

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USPSA TY23298

I hear you JB...I've seen many of the same things and just shake my head.

It's interesting, but if one were to look at our qualification course and then compare it with the 1986 events it is shocking how similar they are. Long shots (relatively) from prone, kneeling and standing, mid-range shots under tight (again, relatively) time limits, close range shots pretty rapidly and then strong and support hand only.

I was typing fast earlier and shouldn't have said that reloading a revolver one-handed was a "complex" action. I should have said it was more of a fine motor skill rather than a gross motor skill. Relatively small cylinder release to push, small ejector rod to hit, and then either manipulating a speed loader or loading singly into the chamber. Under stress those fine motor skills degrade significantly and that's why I like to see people compete (and get nervous in front of their friends) so they learn to handle it.

Reloading an auto is more gross motor skills. Even under stress your left forefinger can find the base of your right hand where the magwell is (for a righty, of course). Manage that and then either whack the muzzle or rear sight on something and you're done.

Obviously, operator proficiency is absolutely paramount and the reason why a good wheelgunner can reload faster than a many auto shooters. As a reasonably accomplished USPSA shooter I can reload pretty darned fast, but I wouldn't want to go ten rounds of reloads against Jerry M....I might just fumble one and he almost never does ;-) R,

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USPSA TY23298

Bart, it's funny our training actually seemed to go in reverse. We did shoot at 50 yards at one time but many departments across the state complained they didn't have enough room for a 50+ ft. range.

I still disagree on the revolver vs auto thing, to a point. But like I said, I've done a lot of revolver shooting. In fact after carrying an auto for a year or so I went back to the revolvers.

I always believed there were several factors at work, and all of them converged in a "perfect storm", causing the deaths of two special agents:

The handgun the FBI agents were issued (S&W, 3", Model 13) was inadequate on its face. It was long known that the K-frame was inadequate for long-term usage of the .357 Magnum cartridge. The NY State Police had long-before replaced theirs with the Model 28, and several other police departments had replaced K-frames because of excessive end shake.

Because the K-frame was not strong enough, FBI agents were probably forced to use .38 +P, and 158gr SWC ammunition. The 158gr SWC has poor expansion.

The .357 Magnum was already being used by hundreds of police departments around the country, and many of them used the 125gr JHP, which had been touted as an "FBI" load, even though never used by the FBI.

As others mentioned, their tactics in the felony stop were primitive by today's standards, and this led to a tactical disadvantage.

Remember, we look at this incident in the eyes of 2009. Our biases are apparent. But it does make for great discussions.

Dennis, I don't know if it was the case at the FBI or not, but many depts. issued .38+Ps for use in .357 magnums. Not everyone likes to shoot the magnums and many officers can't shoot them effectively. I've known many officers over the years that carried .38+P by their choice when allowed to carry anything they wanted.

I had never heard anything that pointed to a problem with the model 13s for the FBI. I carried a 3" model 13 for a long time and the only problem I ever had with it was an extractor pin fell out during some very intense shooting. My favorite duty handgun was the 13s stainless counterpart, the model 65, and I never had any problems with it either.

The only problem I'd ever heard about the firearms were their 6 round capacity and being slower to reload.

I do agree with your perfect storm theory, there's been a few of them and it's starting to rain again.

Yeah, it's a bummer that we dropped 50yds a long time ago as well. Heck, just last Sunday I shot my M41 and M&P Pro out to 100yds and was getting plenty of hits on a steel target that was maybe 8x18".

For you, as a very experienced and practiced wheelgunner I wouldn't suggest you'd have any problem doing a one-handed reload on a revolver....no doubt in my mind. It certainly sounds like you've practiced those sorts of drills enough that they're virtually automatic....which is what's required. For the average cop who shoots his gun X times per year (not many) and won't practice that sort of stuff unless it's forced (like on range days) I would be very surprised if many could manage a one-handed reload under stress very well. If they survived long enough they'd probably manage it eventually, but I'd bet it would take them a while. On the flip side I'd be willing to bet that most would manage the one-handed reload, while not perfectly, probably quite a bit faster.

Trained to the same skill level the difference would simply be a matter of how good the respective shooters were and probably wouldn't change the outcome of a fight much. I just think it takes less pratice to get to the same level with an auto. Yeah, that's sorta training to the lowest common denominator, but what we're often forced to face as a reality :-(

Just last week we had our quarterly qualifications and one guy who is a fellow firearms instructor and former SWAT guy shot the course the first two times backwards. He's a righty, but shot lefty both times (he has a lefty holster for this). Now THAT is the kind of guy I want to work with and the bad guys had better avoid! I've shot it lefty before but hadn't got around to getting a lefty holster....I'm going to fix that shortly since it's a great idea. R,

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USPSA TY23298

I think the actual issued .38 load at the time was a +P+ variety with an all lead 158gr HP of some sort and pretty hot. I've shot some of it and it had a pretty good pop. I'll see if the source has details on it.

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USPSA TY23298

My brother owned a "cop shop" in the late-'70's and early-'80's. The chief complaint from his customers who had been issued K-frame .357's was that those guns had "shot loose" (excessive end shake). Most of the ones who replaced issue K-frame Model 13's and 19's, ended up buying an N-frame S&W, or a Colt Python.

This doesn't mean that lots of officers/agents had problems with K-frame .357's. Your own post is testament to the fact that the K-frame performed all right for you. I just pointed out that excessive end shake was a known issue in the K-frame, and the "fix" was to not load it with .357 ammo.

Unless you're Jerry Miculek, reloading a revolver quickly is always an issue.

Bart, I made my guys shoot from 70+ yds once, some of them actually hit the paper a couple of times but they never wanted to try it again. The worst thing I ever did to them was make them lay their firearms down on a piece of cardboard and then take two steps to the right.
We were a small dept. and carried our own weapons of our own choosing, as long as we qualified with them. It was funny to see them load and shoot guns they never felt before, but I was serious. If they were ever involved in a bad case scenario like Miami, and their handgun was rendered inoperable, their lives would depend on what they could pick up. I did have to give the officer that picked up my revolver a quick lesson on how to operate it. By the time I left they were all carrying some form of Glock or S&W Sigma so that trick wasn't as effective.

Speaking of Glock, I am going to concede a little on the Auto thing. I know when officers went to autos they had a real hard time learning how to use them. When the idiot models, Glock, Sigma and DAO, came out they picked them up a little better. Although when they had malfunctions they would still just stand there and look at it.

I admire your fellow instructor that shoots with both hands. I'm a lefty and shoot with both hands also, sometimes both at once. I started that after reading Ed McGiverns book fast and fancy revolver shooting. But I think being a lefty in a righty world actually gives me an advantage because it make me more ambidextrious. Most officers I know can't shoot very well with their left hands and don't take the time to try and learn. But since they are so close to the target at re-quals they get a couple of hits and are fine with that.

Dennis, I'm not Jerry, but I can shoot somewhat like him. And it's not a good thing for a gunfight. It does draw a crowd at the range and interrupt training classes though.

As a young soldier I taught myself to shoot long guns ambidextrously. I later learned weak hand handgun shooting as well. It's a good skill that we should all strive to achive. If possible, we should even learn to shoot with each eye.

Every time I practice I shoot with my off hand and I am not in law enforcement. I also practice from point blank out to 50 yrds(depending on my carry gun)

Bart, have you found out what kind of .357 Ed Mireles was using? BTW, I appreciate your input and enjoy your posts immensely. Thanks in advance.

They issued Model 57 in 41 Mag to some dept's and I understand that people couldn't handle them.

Jelly, coud you describe your one-handed revo reload for us novices, and also explain why being able to shoot like Jerry Miculek is not good for a gunfight?

My shaky memory is that SA Mirales used an L frame Smith.

With respect to lost equipment.....more than one agent lost glasses and guns in the traffic collision.

Onomea, it's important to find what works best for you through trial and error, but I'll give you my technique. I was a uniformed officer too by the way and wore a duty belt.

If shooting left handed, my strong side, I would push the thumbpiece (S&W) with my left trigger finger, which does require a grip reposition. Then push the cylinder out with my left thumb or smack the revolver against my belt or stomach, which was a lot firmer back then, to open it. I then stuck my trigger finger between the cylinder and frame and pushed the ejector rod down on my handcuff pouch, which was worn behind my holster. This requires the hand to twist quite a bit to get the ejector rod on the inside toward the body and using something further back helps with this. I would then bring the weapon back to make sure all the empties had fallen away and then pushed the barrel down behind my belt with the ejector rod on the outside to keep it from closing. Then I'd reload, pull the weapon out from the belt and push the cylinder closed with the trigger finger.

For my right hand, weak side, I would push the thumbpiece with my right thumb while pushing the cylinder out with my right trigger finger. Then I would put my right thumb between the cylinder and frame and push the ejector rod against my radio, which was worn on the right hand side of my belt, to eject the empties. I would visually inspect it to make sure the empties had all fallen away, then shove the barrel down my belt again. This time the top of the barrel would be toward the body, I used a model 65 or 13 most of the time and the low front sights were beneficial, and the ejector rod was again in front of the belt. After reloading I would draw the weapon from the belt, closing the cylinder with my right thumb.

Shooting at extreme speed is impressive to look at but it makes it real hard to keep track of how much ammo you've shot. And it is a good way to waste it too. I could easily shoot a guy six times before he fell dead from the first shot. I have nothing against fast shooting, and practiced it regularly, but there is such a thing as too fast for a gunfight.

P.S. I don't believe that "novices" business one bit.

Thanks, Jelly. That's good stuff!

(I have had some formal training, in Hawaii, where I return summers on vaction from work -- and where my guns are -- in defensive handgun, three days worth, the last day being for an out-of-state Utah CCW permit. But since I spend most of the year in Japan, don't get to shoot near as much as I'd like. "Near as much as I'd like" is a euphemism for "hardly ever." Compared with the fellows on this thread, like yourself, I am a genuine novice. Now I do read a mean book tho, so I can occasionally pontificate on the internet on something relatively obscure about guns. )

Thanks for the posts!

Ed Mireles told me the revolver he used that day was a four inch barrel S&W 686, privately owned/agency approved, loaded with FBI issue Federal 158 grain +P lead semiwadcutter hollow point.

That ends that debate.

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Formerly know as Lucky Derby

Onomea, Hope it helps. I do a lot of reading too, although I don't finish a lot of the books I start, one of the reasons is indicated by my signature line.

I've never been to Japan, that must be nice. For a vacation anyway.

Yep! Thanks, Mas!

I am a little late to this conversation, but here's my 2 cents

My father was an SA for the FBI in South FL. He knew Ben "The Grinch" Grogan personally. I have the bookmark my father kept from attending his funeral. Unfortunately my father died at 52, so he isn't here to add to things but can only pass along the things he told me. G-man, if you knew W. James Franklin, I would love to hear from you. My father was a Firearms Instructor, Street Survival, and Defensive Tactics Instructor as well.

Grogan's glasses were knocked off in the collision of the vehicle. They were planning on performing continued surveillance and not engaging, however they felt they were going to commit another crime and intervened. They were outgunned. Period. My father already carried an arsenal, but increased it following this incident. My father, who loved his S&W 1076, carried in a fanny pack but tucked in the pocket to his left side of the drivers door along with several additional magazines. In the pocket behind his seat he kept a HK MP5 9mm, later replaced by 10mm full auto, and a shotgun loaded and kept in a hidden, recessed area of the roof of his vehicle. In addition, he had an extra vest on the back seat and personally supplied an AR15 which he kept in the trunk. There was a case of ammo for each the 10mm, .223, and the 12 gauge.

I take umbrage with Jellybean about the 1076. I have all the testing data of the different rounds performed by the FBI, my father's personal Performance Center FBI 1076, and know that it was his favorite semi-auto handgun he had ever fired. The .40 may be more practical and easier for some to shoot, but for those with the ability it was a fine firearm and still is today.

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"IJ"

When his gun was booked into evidence, it was listed as a Smith and Wesson Model 686, serial number AAH8939. It contained six fired Winchester Western +P cases.

The bad guy's guns are fairly mundane, too. I've seen the infamous Mini-14 reported as a full auto, but it was a plain jane 184 series Mini (184-95273). They had a six inch 586 and a six inch Dan Wesson .357, and their shotgun was a Smith and Wesson Model 3000, loaded with number six birdshot.

There's no cause for much speculation - all the info is here:

http://vault.fbi.gov/FBI%20Miami%20S...chterm=4/11/86

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“What you got, ain’t new.”