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03-05-2009, 02:50 PM
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I realize there has plenty written about the Miami shootout of 1986, but something caught my eye this morning.
Jan Libourel, in his column in Gun World suggested that the outcome would have been different if: the F.B.I.'s top marksmen had not his glasses broke during the ramming of the perp's vehicle and consequently his firing was somewhat inconsequential in terms of results...I guess there will be a new slant on this event for decades to come. I always thought it was poor execution, undermanned, undergunned, and underpowered! Anyway, a new slant on this topic.
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03-05-2009, 03:08 PM
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You did mean "had not" had his glasses broken - right
Like everything else that has controversy about it - the theories never end.
Just an observation from the grassy knoll
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03-05-2009, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Big Foot:
I realize there has plenty written about the Miami shootout of 1986, but something caught my eye this morning.
Jan Libourel, in his column in Gun World suggested that the outcome would have been different if: the F.B.I.'s top marksmen had his glasses broke during the ramming of the perp's vehicle and consequently his firing was somewhat inconsequential in terms of results...I guess there will be a new slant on this event for decades to come. I always thought it was poor execution, undermanned, undergunned, and underpowered! Anyway, a new slant on this topic.
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This is not a new or revisionist theory. Even in '86, it was widely reported that one of the agents (who I believe was either a firearms instructor or SWAT team member) had lost or broken his glasses. As I recall, he was shooting from across the street with a snub nose or 3" revolver, without any hits.
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03-05-2009, 03:47 PM
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My opinion is, some guys are just hard to kill. It was a horrible thing that will be talked about for decades to come. It makes me think bigger bullets are better bullets.
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03-05-2009, 03:57 PM
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Being anesthesized by a copious quantity of self-prescribed drugs no doubt contributes to one's ability to absorb bullets without immediate apparent effect.
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03-05-2009, 04:39 PM
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With all due respect, that incident was wholly mishandled by the FBI.
A "felony car stop" does not begin with ramming another vehicle. That was only the beginning of the problems as there were so many mistakes made by the good guys.
We mourn the loss of SA's Dove and Grogan, but there is consolation in that many LEO's have learned so very much from continued review of this incident.
Be safe.
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03-05-2009, 05:50 PM
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As I recall the fact that one agent lost his glasses in the crash was made clear. As mentioned above that was not the only or even the most problematic. The Agents were looking for these guys and found them. Yet they were seriously under gunned. Also, they were not wearing vests.
Under any reasonable situation these were some difficult hombres to arrest or kill, but the FBI was way less than professional on many levels. Still as also mentioned above, it appears that many of the lessons have been learned.
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03-05-2009, 05:58 PM
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What was the hit count for the leo's during that altercation? How well did they do with their shooting?
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03-05-2009, 06:11 PM
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The FBI made the classic mistake of bringing pistols to a rifle fight. Platt had a mini 14 and did a substantial amount of damage in the first few seconds of the fight. He then went on to kill Grogan and Dove in spite of suffering a fatal wound.
A major tragedy for sure, but it did bring about substantial changes to the weapons the FBI allowed the agents to carry from then on.
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03-05-2009, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Flash:
Being anesthesized by a copious quantity of self-prescribed drugs no doubt contributes to one's ability to absorb bullets without immediate apparent effect.
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IIRC, the two bad guys didn't have any drugs or alcohol in their systems. They were well trained, tough, and practiced shooting frequently.
While they got what was coming to them, the price to the FBI Agents was horrendous. There were some critical errors in tactics as well as some bad luck that helped create the tragedy.
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03-05-2009, 06:28 PM
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The glasses thing isn't new. Ben Grogan lost his glasses during the stop, and could barely see to shoot. One of the other guys put his Model 13 on the car seat and it went flying onto the floorboards during the collision. Lessons learned, high price paid.
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03-05-2009, 06:56 PM
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It seems like all the agents had their issue S&W M-13s with 158 SWC ammo. Except one agent had a M-59 S&W 9m/m and he got a lethal heart hit on the guy with the Mini-14 but it took him too long to die.
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03-05-2009, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by sigp220.45:
One of the other guys put his Model 13 on the car seat and it went flying onto the floorboards during the collision. Lessons learned, high price paid.
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I learned something from it--that's when I quit unholstering and tucking my pistol underneath my thigh for quick access when in a chase or a hot car stop.
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03-05-2009, 07:59 PM
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I think it would only have come out better if the FBI were using sequentially-number stamped, non-lead, green ammunition.
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03-05-2009, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
The Agents were looking for these guys and found them. Yet they were seriously under gunned.
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Quote:
The FBI made the classic mistake of bringing pistols to a rifle fight.
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+1 on both counts, and what makes it even more difficult to understand is the FBI knew these guys were murders, and that they had previously killed with a rifle (i.e. the homicide at the sand pits 'shooting range'). I don't like to second guess LEO's having been one myself, but they knew these guys had killed before, and with a longgun.
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03-05-2009, 10:48 PM
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There were more units involved in the rolling stakeout than participated in the shootout. Some of those cars had MP5s and AR-15s. When the decision was made to make the stop, those cars weren't in the immediate area, though they arrived shortly after the shooting ended.
There were at least two shotguns in the cars that were involved - Ed Mireles used his, and Gordon McNeil elected to use his handgun.
Mattix wasn't really a factor. Platt did all the killing, and he did it with a 9mm Silvertip an inch from his heart, put there while he was rolling out of his car after the crash.
The agents made the stop to put an end to the killing spree of Platt and Mattix. They could have said, hey guys, lets wait until Bob and Harry are here with their long guns. Maybe by then the shootout would have taken place in a more populated area, and they would have been criticized for being indecisive.
The FBI learned from the sacrifices made by these agents. Thanks to them I have 10mm MP5 available to me at all times - not locked away in a gun vault. I have a .45 ACP pistol with deep penetrating 230 grain hollowpoints on my hip. And I have more training under my belt than they did. If they made mistakes, they did so because they thought they were doing the right thing to protect the citizens of Miami.
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03-06-2009, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wayne02:
What was the hit count for the leo's during that altercation? How well did they do with their shooting?
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Don't know how accurate this is, but fwiw....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout
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03-06-2009, 06:38 AM
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Since many of you have stated this isn't new news, I guess I just missed it about the glasses in all the Miami posts. To better explain why J. Libourel mentioned this was it was an intro to try various shooting methods that included CQ shooting with your eyes "closed". Thanks for the input...
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03-06-2009, 08:04 AM
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IIRC the TV movie made about the shootout did make a point to show his glasses had been either broken or lost. I have a hard time believing that it didn't have some effect on his shooting.
By the way, that movie: "In the Line of Fire: the FBI Murders" is pretty good for a made-for-TV movie. IIRC the storyline up until the shootout is not all that accurate, but once it starts it definately shows the utter, sustained chaos that must have occurred that day. David Soul and Michael Gross' performances respectively as Platt and Matix alone make it worth watching. It might be a good rental for those who haven't seen it.
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03-06-2009, 08:27 AM
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I saw that movie and, as we all know hollywood always blows things out of porpotion. However if they were anywhere close to the facts, the thing that stood out most to me was the fact that the agents were seriously under armed. That is I think though one of the most valuable lessons to be learned from that movie. We M-U-S-T guarantee that our LEOS are adequately prepared for situations like this because as each of us gunowners know the BG'S are always going to prepared.
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03-06-2009, 08:48 AM
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One of the major factors effecting marksmanship in that exchange was that the bad guys were in a dark shaded area (under a tree IIRC), while the good guys were all highlighted in bright sunlight. Moreover, this caused the good guys to be squinting and shooting more or less into a black hole in which they couldn't clearly see their targets. In other words the bad guys had concealment in the open by virtue of the sun/shade circumstances. Not the only factor by any means, but a major one nonetheless.
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03-06-2009, 01:16 PM
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If you've got a few hours, check this out.
Part 1a, page 69 has the make, model, and serial numbers of all the agent's guns. The blacked out names are guys who were on the stakeout, but didn't get into the shooting. Since these guys could buy their guns upon retirement, there is a very slim chance some of them are floating around somewhere.
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03-06-2009, 04:32 PM
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"The FBI made the classic mistake of bringing pistols to a rifle fight."
+1 It is a matter of firepower - or in this case, a lack thereof.
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03-06-2009, 04:46 PM
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This whole "Thing" has been used as an example of what 'Not to Do' during many training classes for many Years since it happened. Lots of mistakes were made and there were some truly Major ones made. But, learning by mistakes where people get killed isn't the best way to do things. But, lots of people have to learn the hard way.
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03-06-2009, 05:44 PM
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Wow, I'd never even heard of this incident before this thread.
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03-06-2009, 06:01 PM
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I suppose I was asleep at the time, which is normal for me, as far as cop shoot-outs go. In those days, I assumed cops were hardly ever real gun men. I did not recall that both of the murderers had considerable military training. I don't investigate crimes so wouldn't know, but that would seem to put them ahead of the average street punk. Of course, the agents didn't know that.
They did know these guys were well-armed. Reading the radio transcript, there is the appearance that there was a cooler voice that might have averted the disaster. But he seemed to have been overruled - by emotion. As a result, they got caught out, in the worst way.
Of course hindsight is easily 20-20, and waiting for the uniformed guys to come along may have served no purpose except to get some of them killed, too. Reading the transcript, I just kept thinking I would have been scared to death to get that close to those guys with that Mini!
Thanks to SIGP220 for providing the link. Even truncated, as it was, it was still interesting.
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03-06-2009, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by TNDixieGirl:
Wow, I'd never even heard of this incident before this thread.
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Hey; Hollywierd even made a movie about this one and believe it or not it was pretty close to reality. I was still Instructing at the time and read the reports as they came out. A couple of the more important lessons learned that day were "If you've got a 'Vest' and are working a Stakeout, the truck of your car is a lousy place for it. Same, same for heavier artillery!"
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03-06-2009, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Hollywierd even made a movie about this one
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What's the movie title? I might need to view that one.
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03-06-2009, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
"In the Line of Fire: the FBI Murders"
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Thank you, Norad45
While I know that others had mentioned it, I stole the qoute from Norad's post
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03-06-2009, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by TNDixieGirl:
Quote:
Hollywierd even made a movie about this one
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What's the movie title? I might need to view that one.
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Keep your eyes peeled and you may catch it soon; it's been on TV two or three times and it's about due again.
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03-06-2009, 09:21 PM
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The tragic events of that day have had great influence on law enforcement training and equipment. It led to the FBI testing of ammunition that is so well known today. The Smith and Wesson 1076 was adopted by the FBI after the initial tests. Smith and Wesson looked at the performance of the downloaded 10mm and realized they could get the same performance out of a shorter case and created the .40 S&W. So when you see a law enforcement officer carrying a .40 caliber pistol and highly engineered ammunition, you are looking at some of the results of the Miami shootings.
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03-06-2009, 09:40 PM
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Part of this was politics. I worked for a different Federal Agency at the time this happen.
We were NOT under all the restrictions that the FBI operated under. We were much better armed before the shotting and even more so after. It also didn't take a bunch of testing and hand wringing about ammo and guns for us to "upgrade".
As for as not knowing who they were dealing with and not knowing they were ex military simply isn't true.
The other thing stated early on by somebody still holds true, some people die HARD. As a combat vet prior to going into Law Enforcement I'd already seen guys stay in the fight with fatal and in the end life ending wounds, for a long time.
RWT
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03-06-2009, 11:20 PM
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The problem the FBI had, was that they didn't hire the A-team. They could have atleast used some of the tactics shown in the opening trailer: covering fire with mini-14s and drop a wrecking ball on the suspect vehicle...
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03-07-2009, 12:13 AM
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One thing I don't see mentioned here is that the search for what turned out to be Platt/Mattix involved quite a bit of time, weeks not hours. While the agents may have started out fully geared up (within regs at the time), when the ball opened, the gear was in the rear of the cars.
There was more than one agent with a gun on the seat-those disappeared in the multi vehicle crash.
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03-07-2009, 11:15 AM
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I don't know if things have changed since those days within the FBI but I always found it pretty 'strange' that they did the "Investigation" themselves.
I know they are currently carrying on an Investigation of one of the local LEOs who's story has been highlighted here - the Deputy who beat up on the 15 year old girl in the holding cell.
I expect they'll do a fine job and things will come out the way they should. I never believed in an Agency 'investigating' themselves. I so an awful lot of "stuff" get swept under the rug while I was in the Military because they did their own 'investigating'. I know that has changed over the Years and I think it is a change for the better.
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05-06-2009, 04:39 PM
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If you go to You Tube and type "1986 miami shootout" in the search engine, a movie reenactment is posted.
I don't know about the FBI guys and their background (Ed Mireles was one tough cat and some of the other G-men struck me as pretty scrappy fighters too), but my hunch is that Platt was the best trained guy there and better armed. If Gordon McNeil hadn't hit Matix in the face early on, I'm guessing things would have been far worse than they were for the FBI, as hard as that is to imagine.
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05-06-2009, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by WR Moore:
One thing I don't see mentioned here is that the search for what turned out to be Platt/Mattix involved quite a bit of time, weeks not hours. While the agents may have started out fully geared up (within regs at the time), when the ball opened, the gear was in the rear of the cars.
There was more than one agent with a gun on the seat-those disappeared in the multi vehicle crash.
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I always felt that the agents involved really didn't think they would come in contact with Platt and Mattix that day. If YOU knew you were going to be in a gunfight, wouldn't you be wearing a vest and carrying more than one pistol?
The FBI agents may have had inferior weaponry, but almost all LEOs in those days carried S&W six shot revolvers. With all due respect, I believe their tactics sucked. Platt/Mattix knew they were being tailed and confirmed it by making four right turns. The bad guys seized the initiative and the good guys paid for it.
Sounds like Newhall repeated, doesn't it?
The rules are written in blood.
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05-07-2009, 04:43 AM
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I have more than a little bit of knowledge regarding the incident, and the problems began when the special agents, even though they knew for whom they were searching and where they might find them, were NOT prepared tactically or mentally for the confrontation..
The real problems began when they initated a "felony car stop" by ramming the bad guys' vehicle.
The only positives that resulted were that Platt and Mattix were killed, and the lessons learned from the errors committed have helped many, many other LEO's.
Be safe.
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05-07-2009, 09:13 AM
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I started a thread about this last week. I'm out of words at this point. Yes they made mistakes but for goodness sakes every organization makes mistakes. We had a big azz blunder here at my shop the other day. And, last, they didn't exactly have an appointment with these guys, they were cruising the area and just happened to see the Monte Carlo..it probably just happened quicker than they could react to properly.
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05-07-2009, 11:59 AM
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Much was made of the shortcommings of the handguns used. After watching the re-enactment, I wondered if the FBI gave any thought to issuing semi-auto shotguns instead of pumps.
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05-07-2009, 12:05 PM
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There was absolutely nothing new learned from this gunfight that wasn't known before it happened.
The saddest part of it was the FBIs highly publicized hunt for the best handgun round. What a crock of BS. The handgun ammunition used acted just as it did in any other gunfight in history, poorly and unpredictably. The "best" round, according to the test, was the 10mm, but since their agents couldn't stand to shoot it they had to drop it. I could have told them that and it wouldn't have cost them, or the taxpayers, a penny. When S&W morped it into a round that most of them could shoot they ended up with a cartridge that was no better than a host of others. Again, I could have saved them and a whole bunch of other PDs from buying all new firearms.
All the "new" tactics and techniques that had come out of the lessons that I'd seen were not new, or better even. Most of them were worse. Just like after "The Newhall Incident". The next time this situation lines up again, we're going to see the exact same results. History repeats itself until someone learns how to change it.
Just as I was retiring the state changed the annual requalification exercises. Now officers fire 60 rounds of handgun ammo and 15 rounds of shotgun, 10 if you're not issued slugs. I've also noticed just about every officer doesn't seem to realize he has a shotgun in his cruiser, right behind him. They don't pull them out when they should on hot calls and they don't check them when they start their shift.
I'm done now, it's getting too hard to think straight.
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05-07-2009, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 3rd Gen Neal:
I started a thread about this last week. I'm out of words at this point. Yes they made mistakes but for goodness sakes every organization makes mistakes. We had a big azz blunder here at my shop the other day. And, last, they didn't exactly have an appointment with these guys, they were cruising the area and just happened to see the Monte Carlo..it probably just happened quicker than they could react to properly.
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Lighten up. This isn't a personal attack on any officer or agency.
The whole Street Survival movement is geared toward critically analyzing our mistakes and learning from them. Intelligent people try to learn from other people's mistakes.
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05-07-2009, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Lighten up. This isn't a personal attack on any officer or agency
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I know...and didn't you meen lighten up Francis
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05-07-2009, 03:12 PM
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Actually, their hit ratio was pretty decent at first. Dove's near heart shot was actually pretty impressive considering the angle and length of exposure....quite brief. One agent scored hits from about 40yds away (across the street).
Ed Mireles had his vest on (he pulled it on at the last minute) and was still wearing it when loaded into the ambulance...I've seen a picture of that. I've met him and listened to his description of the event and it's pretty fascinating.
One of the significant problems was that the cars stopped under/against a large tree and that put them in the shade. Bad guys in the shade on a bright day with gunsmoke in the air made it nearly impossible to see into from out in the sunlight according to several of the surviving agents.
While there were plenty of mistakes made I think that almost all of law enforcement learned a lot from what happened and that's probably the most important thing about it.
The traditional concept of law enforcement taking cover and returning fire was shown to be faulty when the bad guys are trained in covering fire and movement the way the military teaches it. R,
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05-07-2009, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by G-ManBart:The traditional concept of law enforcement taking cover and returning fire was shown to be faulty when the bad guys are trained in covering fire and movement the way the military teaches it. R,
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Exactly. The closest I have ever come to training like a fire team (outside of the Army) is Active Shooter training. We LEOs have a tendency to commit our troops piecemeal (as most of us patrol alone) rather than work together, utilizing flanking movements and moving toward the high ground, if possible.
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05-07-2009, 04:09 PM
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US Veteran Absent Comrade
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Quote:
Originally posted by G-ManBart:
Actually, their hit ratio was pretty decent at first. Dove's near heart shot was actually pretty impressive considering the angle and length of exposure....quite brief. One agent scored hits from about 40yds away (across the street).
Ed Mireles had his vest on (he pulled it on at the last minute) and was still wearing it when loaded into the ambulance...I've seen a picture of that. I've met him and listened to his description of the event and it's pretty fascinating.
One of the significant problems was that the cars stopped under/against a large tree and that put them in the shade. Bad guys in the shade on a bright day with gunsmoke in the air made it nearly impossible to see into from out in the sunlight according to several of the surviving agents.
While there were plenty of mistakes made I think that almost all of law enforcement learned a lot from what happened and that's probably the most important thing about it.
The traditional concept of law enforcement taking cover and returning fire was shown to be faulty when the bad guys are trained in covering fire and movement the way the military teaches it. R,
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Bart-
If you met Mireles, did he happen to tell you which handgun he actually used? One gun writer says that he had a M-586 or 686. Others say that he had an "issue" M-13. Either way, HE was the killer, and he took out the bad guys with lead HP .38 Plus P rounds. He just put them where they counted. Penetration was ample.
By the way, more than one agent had a S&W 9mm auto.
I do wonder, in view of their intended quarry, why the agents hadn't asked for permission to load .357 ammo. I think the issue stuff then was Winchester's 145 grain Silvertip, a very workmanlike load.
The root cause of the problems was largely that the agents treated the trip casually. No vests on most; one gun lying on the seat, where anyone who half thought about it would know that it would fly off in a hard stop. No rifles.
I've seen officers get very casual about checking alarms, too. Most are false, so they become complacent.
Back in the 19th Century, "Punch" ran a cartoon that had two hunters in Africa who had had a little misfortune with a lion. The caption read, "When you go to look for a lion, be very sure that you want to find him." I think it applies to situations like this Miami shootout.
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05-07-2009, 05:35 PM
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Bart, I'm curious about Ed Mireles and how he thinks. Is he a gun guy like us? Perhaps a military vet? Obviosly he has an ample supply of good old all-american guts. Also, why did an obviously bright and disciplined guy like Platt turn into an armed robber? My understanding is that most violent felons don't think in terms of setting long term goals. Obviously Platt didn't fit the stereotype, because a guy doesn't get into Special Forces by being an undisiplined loser. I've got theories, but am curious about what you know. Thanks in advance and sorry for so many questions.
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05-07-2009, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Texas Star:
Bart-
If you met Mireles, did he happen to tell you which handgun he actually used? One gun writer says that he had a M-586 or 686. Others say that he had an "issue" M-13. Either way, HE was the killer, and he took out the bad guys with lead HP .38 Plus P rounds. He just put them where they counted. Penetration was ample.
By the way, more than one agent had a S&W 9mm auto.
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Honestly, I didn't realize there was any confusion as to which revolver he was carrying. I'll have to look into it as I'm interested myself....I'll see what I can dig up....it's certainly not protected info or anything.
I've been able to handle a couple of the guns involved and seen the M870 from a foot away...it still has dried blood on it so they don't let folks handle it....wow.
I'm sure you're right about the Smith 9mm's as well. They were authorized for SWAT at the time and going off memory Dove had one and at least one other guy did as well. A curious fact is that Dove had less than full magazines, which nobody ever sorted out....one had only something like 9 rounds in it...strange. I'll let you know about the revolver if I can figure it out. R,
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586, 686, cartridge, ccw, dan wesson, ejector, extractor, glock, idpa, m41, marksmanship, military, model 57, model 65, model 686, sig arms, sigma, smith and wesson, tactical, thumbpiece, winchester |
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