Well folks,

I just wanted to share my thought with you for a moment.

I just got back from the Solano Gun Show, here in California. (About 40-minutes north of San Francisco).

I was at the Cow Palace Gun Show about a month ago, and I purchased a brick of 5000 Winchester LP primers for around $125.00. But today I went to the Solano Gun Show and found that Miwall was selling the very same brick of primers for nearly $180.00.

What a rip off.

I understand that tax prices have increased as of April 1st, 2009. I also understand that as a seller, you pass this cost on to the customer. But PLEASE don't question my "imtellemagance" by trying to convince me that there was an added $50.00+ tax increase per brick!

Talk about taking advantage of the very mouths that feed you.

Does this remind you of the gas shortage, where a few gas station owners were selling their gas at super extravagant prices? Or of the markets that were selling 1-gallon jugs of water for $20.00 after a hurricane?

Pathetic.

I will remember who stood with the shooters in these tough economic and 2nd Amendment times. And I will also remember who gouged us because they could. (Not only did they charge what the economy would bear, but they took it as far as they could)!

Shame on you.

Times like these will expose who you really are.

But on the plus side...not all was lost.

I saw a few friendly faces, and had a great time while there. (Besides the bitter taste in my mouth after seeing the INCREDIBLE price increases at Miwall). Gun enthusiasts are great. And I learned a few things whilst there. As a matter of fact, I now have my eyes on a great weapon for the future. Me and a buddy are trying to get a few guys to go in on a larger buy, so we can get a better deal on some custom-made carbines.

But that's another story.

Anyhoo...in the end, I walked out with:

A super cool "Infidel" T-shirt - tax free


A 12-guage shotgun cleaning rod for $5.00 - tax free
An extra Brownells bushing wrench for my range bag for $4.00 -tax free
An 10-round, 1911 single stack, Wilson Combat magazine for $37.00 - tax free
An extra 18.5 pound Wolf recoil spring for my range bag for $6.00 - tax free
And an awesome match grade Videki short trigger for my 1911 for $10.00 - tax free
And 200 Gamo Hunter .177 pellets for $2.00 - tax free



Primers and "other stuff" will now be purchased in super bulk, so that the hazmat and shipping fees will be worth it.

Support your local gun shows, support your local gun stores, and patronize those who should be patronized. (Be wise, and remember who stood by you during these tough times...without gouging you).

Nuff said.

In Christ: Raymond

Well folks,

I just wanted to share my thought with you for a moment.

I just got back from the Solano Gun Show, here in California. (About 40-minutes north of San Francisco).

I was at the Cow Palace Gun Show about a month ago, and I purchased a brick of 5000 Winchester LP primers for around $125.00. But today I went to the Solano Gun Show and found that Miwall was selling the very same brick of primers for nearly $180.00.

What a rip off.

I understand that tax prices have increased as of April 1st, 2009. I also understand that as a seller, you pass this cost on to the customer. But PLEASE don't question my "imtellemagance" by trying to convince me that there was an added $50.00+ tax increase per brick!

Talk about taking advantage of the very mouths that feed you.

Does this remind you of the gas shortage, where a few gas station owners were selling their gas at super extravagant prices? Or of the markets that were selling 1-gallon jugs of water for $20.00 after a hurricane?

Pathetic.

I will remember who stood with the shooters in these tough economic and 2nd Amendment times. And I will also remember who gouged us because they could. (Not only did they charge what the economy would bear, but they took it as far as they could)!

Shame on you.

Times like these will expose who you really are.

But on the plus side...not all was lost.

I saw a few friendly faces, and had a great time while there. (Besides the bitter taste in my mouth after seeing the INCREDIBLE price increases at Miwall). Gun enthusiasts are great. And I learned a few things whilst there. As a matter of fact, I now have my eyes on a great weapon for the future. Me and a buddy are trying to get a few guys to go in on a larger buy, so we can get a better deal on some custom-made carbines.

But that's another story.

Anyhoo...in the end, I walked out with:

A super cool "Infidel" T-shirt - tax free


A 12-guage shotgun cleaning rod for $5.00 - tax free
An extra Brownells bushing wrench for my range bag for $4.00 -tax free
An 10-round, 1911 single stack, Wilson Combat magazine for $37.00 - tax free
An extra 18.5 pound Wolf recoil spring for my range bag for $6.00 - tax free
And an awesome match grade Videki short trigger for my 1911 for $10.00 - tax free
And 200 Gamo Hunter .177 pellets for $2.00 - tax free



Primers and "other stuff" will now be purchased in super bulk, so that the hazmat and shipping fees will be worth it.

Support your local gun shows, support your local gun stores, and patronize those who should be patronized. (Be wise, and remember who stood by you during these tough times...without gouging you).

Nuff said.

In Christ: Raymond

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In Christ: Raymond

Without knowing all details, it's hard to say if he was gouging you. If he is having a hard time getting primers to resell, he now has to sell at a higher price to make up for the lost volumes in order to come home with the same amount of profit at the end of show. I assume the guy has bills to pay just like the rest of us.

On the other hand, if he can get all the primers he wants near the same price his supplier was charging before and he raised his prices that much, then he is probably taking advantage of the situation.

Sometimes one man’s price gouging is another man’s supply and demand pricing.

I’m shopping carefully at this time. I don’t need to buy anything right now. However if I find .22 Federal Bulk Packs at Wally’s for $13.49 I buy them. I also have a AR complete lower with M4 stock on backorder at Brownells for $230. I’ll wait patiently or do with out.

Emory

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Hard To Kill

IMO, there is simply no such thing as "price gouging" in a free market. The seller is free to price his goods at whatever amount he chooses and the buyer is free to either purchase or not purchase at that price.

Exactly. If his price is too high, someone else will sell the product (whether it is primers, gasoline, or widgets) at a price the market is willing to pay.

It is the American way. Some call it gouging. Others call it Capitalism.

By the way, if I lived in South Florida, I would lay in a supply of drinking water and plywood for boarding up right now. Then, I would sell my excess water for $25 per gallon and my excess plywood for $150 per sheet to people who were less prudent than I. If I saw an elderly widow who couldn't afford to stock up early, I would give her water and plywood. If I saw someone in a $40,000.00 SUV with a beer gut and three televisions in his house, he would pay the $25 for water and $150. for plywood.

While I'm on this rant, I know of two or three young married couples who have a couple of automobiles that they are probably paying a combined $1500 per month payment and insurance, and regularly stop in the convenience store to buy beer, cigarettes, and lottery tickets, but say they can't afford to buy health insurance for their kids.

Off topic, and sorry about that.

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Georgia On My Mind

I like the infidel t shirt.

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Forum consigliere

Email sent..

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SWCA #2306
DAV in honor of POP

redlevel: +100

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Just having a good time.

+1 to Steave and Redlevel.

To expand on the Fla example, lets say that some enlightened soul, perhaps with the initials B.O. were to ban "price gouging". Following the next storm and the price for a Gal of water was fixed at a $1 max and a sheet of plywood at $25 max would anyone in his right mind buy up a truck load of lumber or water and head to Fla to sell it? Would a wise businessman stockpile water and wood in the expectation that at some point there will be a hurricane and he can make .10c on a Gal of water he may have to purchase and store indefinitely? The market not only allocates products to those who need it more efficiently than any other system but also gives incentives in the form of profits to those who foresee needs and meet them.

Raymond; you should sell those 5,000 primers at a profit and add to the supply and not the demand. You can also profit by so doing, then buy the 5000 to shoot when the price is down, pocket the change?
PS, does Spike Tactical have that shirt?

Your "governator" did just ramp up your business taxes with a further delayed "secret" increase in 2011 imbedded in the law. He and his pet legislature also disallowed the use of Net Operating Loss carryforwards again - for 2008 and 2009 - which screws a lot of planning up. How much of an increase depends on the business. I think that I would like an infiel t-shirt myself.

BTW - The only houses damaged in my neighborhood when Ike came right over us were the ones that were boarded up. The boards broke the windows when Ike pulled them loose. The rest of the houses only lost screens.

I haven't reloaded in years, so i haven't seen the prices of primers until recently. I was at Shooters today and they had Large magnum pistol primers 1 box of 1000 for 37.95.

One guy I know has been looking for large rifele and other types and cannot find any.

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Stan

Wow!

A lot of comments.

This opens-up a few topics, one of which is capitalism vs patriotism. (It is a fine line, indeed).

Let me give you an example of a conversation I had with my uncle a few years ago.

Me: Do you believe in capitalism?
Uncle: Yes, or course!
Me: Let's say that a person works his bootay off, finds a good nitch in the market, builds a huge multi-million dollar company from his years of blood sweat and tears, and decides to move it over to India for cheaper labor and better profits. Is that OK with you?
Uncle: Yepper-ee.
Me? Why?
Uncle: Because this is capitalism. In this country you can do whatever you want, without fear of the government telling you a darn thing. Just pay your taxes, pay your workers a decent fee as per their economic living conditions, and don't break any rules. Why not?
Me: And what about all of the American jobs that will be lost? What about patriotism and what you are doing to our economy?
Uncle: It doesn't matter. In this country, capitalism is capitalism. I am FREE to do whatever I want to do so long as I am breaking no rules, and I am working within the constraints of the laws of the land.
Me: Hmmmmm.

This conversation really happened. And it opened my eyes to the reality of things.

This "is" America. And as a free country, we can do anything we want. I agree with him, in that he was doing nothing ILLEGALLY wrong. But as an American, do we not have a higher calling?

I know that we can do what we want because our country is a capitalist society, and is structured as such. (Which I totally, 100% agree with). But what about our individual loyalty. What about our patriotism? Is there more to it than just "staying within the laws of the land"?

In all truth, I do not know what I would do in the latter situation - if I had a multi-million dollar company and was just looking at profits. (That "is" the purpose a company opens for business - for profit - right)?

Being an American patriot to the bone, having served my country for 10-years, having pondered all these matters from a Biblical point of view...I am still not convinced of anything just yet.

But this I know, God and country WILL BE A FACTOR in my business practices and decisions. And having a very prosperous security business is the San Francisco Bay Area (I am a locksmith and safe technician), I can assure you that I am talking the talk, and walking the walk!

Capitalism vs Patriotism.

Hmmm...a fine line indeed.

REDLEVEL also made a few good points. But the bottom line is "balance". Being wise and prudent is one thing. (Afterall, if you own a retail store, you are investing your monies in products which may become a possible profit for you in the future. No one wants to sit on inventory purchased that no one buys). But the balance comes in the situation. If it is a natural disaster, or a life-threatening condition...should you take advantage of this? (Personally, this is where my Biblical foundation comes into play). I do not store "disaster valuables" to offer in times of crisis. But I do store "disaster valuables" for myself and my family. I am not the type of person who is always looking for a way to make a quick buck, nor do I play the lottory to have a chance at being rich. I am happy with what the Lord has placed on my plate, and I am also happy for what He has not. I work hard, make a good living, and try to be a good example for my family, my community, and most importantly...my Lord.

CZBRIAN also made very good points, and has a very balanced view.

RUNDOWNFED also made a good point when he stated" You should sell those 5,000 primers at a profit and add to the supply and not the demand. You can also profit by so doing, then buy the 5000 to shoot when the price is down, pocket the change".

But the fact is that I do not want to sell my primers to make a profit. I purchased my primers because I am an avid shooter and competitor, and because I make my own home defense loads. I work hard, and I play even harder. My hobbies are expensive, as the current price of primers will substantiate.

Some folks will even say that they need to price it higher because primers are no longer readily available. So are they implying that they are a store which mutually exclusively sell primers, and primers only?

C'mon, guys.

Just call it like it is. If it smells like a horse, trots like a horse, and bays like a horse...then...

I stand behind my initial post, until I am convinced otherwise. A $50.00 increase is just gouging. And on top of that, to their fellow shooters.

Patriotism vs Capitalism?

In Christ: Raymond

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In Christ: Raymond

Capitalism versus Patriotism? Are you serious?Just because they are both -ism's doesn't mean one has anything to do with the other.

If it lives with the hippies, and smells like the hippies, and condemns capitalism like the hippies, and claims patriotism like the hippies . . . you live in California dude, get over it and move or just accept that you've become a hippie and firearms are the evil weapons of capitalist right-wing pigs.

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vim vi repellere licet

Glockist,

are you implying that I am a left-wing, liberal, hippi, because I live in the San Francisco Bay Area?

Are you taking a quick gander at a certain topic, and drawing a conclusion about me without talking to me, or fully understanding me?

Dr Phil will take a TV caller, listen for a few minutes, and give LIFE CHANGING ADVICE without listening to all the facts. (You don't need to tell your parents about your abortion. It's probably better if they never knew. This way they will never critcize their 13-year old baby).

Oprah Winfrey will take a TV caller, listen for two minutes, and draw a definitive conclusion based on her emotional feelings.

The feminist folly on "The View" will listen to a topic for a few moments, throw out all the facts, and then draw their own conclusions based on their left-wing politics and TV ratings.

And don't let me get started on their condemning, smart, sarcastic, and offensive remarks they impart to folks who they disagree with.

Pure genius I tell you. Pure, unadulterated, deductive, genius.

Maybe you are correct. Maybe "patriotism" was not the correct word to use. (But it was in my above example). Maybe I should have used "morals and ethos". Or maybe I should have used "customer appreciation"...or maybe "customer retention".

Yea...you were correct. After some thought, "patriotism" was not the right word.

I stand corrected.

In Christ: Raymond...the ex-Army Ranger, life NRA member, Sunday school teacher, fighter for our 2nd Amendment rights on this coastline, "Hippi".

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In Christ: Raymond

You mention "customer retention". Explain to me the 15% favorable rating that congress has and their 85% ability to be reelected. Price "gouging" in the firearms sector is the least of our worries . . . just do a search for "roll your own tobacco tax" and tell me who the real price gougers are who said that they wouldn't be raising taxes on the poor.

A patriot in this day and age should be throwing their full support behind capitalism. Fascists have spent the last hundred years infiltrating our schools and government waiting for this day to destroy the American way of life and the people are too stupid to realize it. The masses go about their lives watching Dr Phil or Oprah or the View, complaining about the price of gas or water during a hurricane while the government distracts them with boogeymen like Big Oil or AIG. Now we have government sector fascists claiming that they have the power to control the private sector. I don't care what anyone in the firearms business is charging these days . . . as long as they never need a government bailout, more power to 'em.

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vim vi repellere licet

Don't blame me. I voted for the old guy and the hot chick.



In Christ: Raymond

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In Christ: Raymond

Another thing to consider is they're trying to make the money while they can. We all know about the "Ammo Accountability" so they can "track all the bad guy's bullets". Well IF that were to happen the reloaders are S. O. L. and so are their suppliers. Also let's say they were running on the cusp or even doing ok but now with the shortage they have less product to sell. That means the mortgage is harder to make and the car payments and food and utility bills and, and, and...

Sure I think some morals and ethics should come into play when the suppliers are pricing their products but ultimately it comes down to the consumer. If we feel the price is too high then we don't buy and the supplier realizes this and will lower his price. Let's take EBR's though, there are a lot of people buying AR's, AK's and the like that don't even own guns or may have only owned 1 or so. They're willing to pay higher prices to get that rifle because they know the guy they voted for wants to take them away. Can you really blame a supplier for jacking up the price? The savvy customer will look around and compare prices, the impulse buyer will pay more.

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NRA Endowment Member

As an example Wal-Mart is still selling WWB 9mm (100) value packs for just under $20.00 plus tax.

Now price the components separately when purchased CCI primers $2.90 per hundred, Starline cases per hundred $16.99, Winchester 115Gr FMJ FB per hundred $10.99, and powder (Winchester 231 powder $18.71 per pound) cost to load one hundred $1.21. Total $32.09 plus tax in component cost to equal one hundred complete rounds.

At 1000 complete rounds the component cost would be $276.06 plus freight and tax in comparison to Wal-Mart $200.00 plus tax.

The component cost was taken from Midway USA. Now go to your local outlet or gun show and compare the selling prices of the components and see the difference.

Now as an example if gasoline is priced at $2.00 per gallon and goes to $4.00 a gallon during a hurricane then that’s considered price gouging and state agencies investigate that. State governments don’t consider that part of the free market system during emergencies.

That said we collectively are being gouged by the producer, distributor, and retailer. What’s more wrong than that we’re do it to each other.

Suppliers will always charge what the market will bear. That's called capitalism.

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VIVERE MILITARE EST

I happen to know that MiWall tried to buy $1,000,000 worth of primers, powder and brass from Winchester about three weeks ago. Cash in hand. Winchester said, no we are using all we have, can't sell any.

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Formerly know as Lucky Derby

An excellent point, and it does make a comment about that word - patriotism. Apparently, we are just a bunch of whiners.

There is no connect. The two concepts have little or nothing to do with each other, and to that extent, I agree with your Uncle - in principle. In practice, as an employer, you will do whatever your conscience allows. There was a comment made in another place on this forum that in a family business, employees are just so much spare change. There may be widespread truth in that too, but I know of more than one family business that is not run that way. Some employers will, if forced to make a choice, just cash out and leave the grubby market before they can their employees so that they can deal with Mexico and/or Asia. (BTW - Reality is that in ANY business, employees are "resources," and I actually believe this thinking is LESS prevalent in family businesses than in big, publicly-held corporations.)

When you address the issue of capitalism in the context you envision, you will evenutally get into a discussion about the difference between profit and greed. Since this is invariably seen as a matter of degrees, it is highly subjective. My own estimate is that, right now, greed is winning the argument going away.

I too like your Infidel tee-shirt and wonder if something like that is available in a nice, office-compatible golf shirt? Maybe Cajunlawyer and I could put together a small order?

Keep in mind Wal-Mart buys in HUGE bulk and will demand a price cut. On top of that they're willing to barely profit or even lose money on certain items to get you in the store. It's hard to compare a billion dollar company with one MUCH smaller.

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NRA Endowment Member

Those that compete against Wal-Mart use the same analogy concerning profit margin and selling at loss. I’ve heard the same excuse from Lowes Food Stores here in North Carolina.

Winchester and the other ammunition manufactures aren’t going to sell at a loss to Wal-Mart. They most likely sell at a reduced profit margin. Wal-Mart on the other hand can’t sell every thing at a loss either.

In my example I used Midway USA as an example also. With those two examples go to your local source of reloading supplies and compare their prices. From the manufacture to the final consumer the great in between is profiting to the point of gouging.

Plenty of price gouging going on as of late! I am fortunate in that I have a local bullet caster that also charges a reasonable price for components when they are available. I'm pretty set on powder at the moment, but I did have to spring for a pound of Lil Gun recently. He charges $23.95........not unreasonable for a retail outlet. I saw a competitor at this weekends local gun show wanting $28 for the same powder. This guy had some old metal cans of IMR 7828 for the same price. Come on now, these cans were probably at least 10 years old. Another clown was asking $22.00 for a brick of Winchester Wildcat .22lr. I'm hoping these guys bust a nut lugging their unsold wares back to the trailer........I saw the same scenario back in the mid-90's when the assault rifle/high capacity mag ban was enacted. Fools were paying $75 for a 15 round 9mm mag. This nonsense will eventually pass. By the way, my local reloading supply guy tells me that the major bullet/component makers are reluctant to expand capacity........ie....adding shift personnel........as they see this as a short term hoarding phenomenon.

On another note.........Now is the time to do a little networking among local shooters to combine orders for components. Buy in bulk and spread those shipping/haz mat charges among your buddies!

If they do, then that proves the premise that there can be no such thing as price gouging in a free economy. If they sell their products for what they are asking, then they have discovered "what the market will bear."

That is Capitalism!

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Georgia On My Mind

Notice I said price cut, not that Winchester sold to Wal-Mart at a loss. I'm also not saying Wal-Mart sells everything at a loss BUT some of their products are. Also if they bought a **** load of ammo at a better price than smaller companies then they can sell at a better price and still maintain a profit.

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NRA Endowment Member

Capitalism if completely unregulated tends to destroy itself very rapidly. You get cartels or outright monopolies that do engage in price gouging because they control the supply essentially completely.

But I don't think that this is going on here.

I think this is half market frenzy, and half political action. It's kind of the opposite of a boycott.

Is it a buycott?

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Regulate Banks, not guns

I think guns and ammo have (at least temporarily) become a commodity like oil, gold or silver, with pricing controlled by the market.

Look at diamonds. They're so plentiful, the DeBeers cartel has to regulate their release to maintain high prices.

It all depends on where your vantage point on the situation is located.

I am kinda miffed that I didn't think to stock up enough to resell at this time and smile all the way to the bank.

I'm just going to shoot black powder until this whole thing levels off. I'm heading to the range this weekend and expect to come back contented and covered in soot and grease.

Got bore butter?

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Lost it all in a boat accident

Supply and demand. When the price exceeds what the market will bear, the seller will either have to lower his price or not sell his primers. Evidently this point has not yet been reached.

This topic has been on my mind since, oh about a week after the election and prices started going nuts.

My first observation was that, and pardon me for shouting but, NOTHING CHANGED except for the people in office. No new laws,blah blah.

Now did the entire shooting community panic and buy up all available stock? Maybe. Where manufacturers caught unprepared with not enough product? Maybe. I'm not being sarcastic, I don't work in this field so I flat out don't know.

What did happened is that for what ever reasons, it appears that product availability became greatly limited, prices got jacked up and some, repeat some, dealers started gouging their customers. I saw this at the first show in the Denver area the weekend after the election. So screw 'em, the dealers that did that.

Now prices are still high, want a Colt 6920? Plenty of them out there, just at crazy prices-no thank you. I know of one dealer that had the basic S&W AR15 for $1040 shipped, sold them all in about a half hour.

Ammo prices have been up for quite a while, now however the stores/retailers are apparently having a hard time replenishing their stock at this time.

I know of a few dealers that aren't overcharging for their products and those are the ones I will give my money to.

I know I'm preaching to the choir here but I guess I'll just keep most of my money and spend it when I find whatever items I'm looking for at what are, to me at least, acceptable prices.

Good luck to us all.

S&Wfan, I understand where you're coming from but I see the view point of get it while you can. I have a friend who said "If a new law is passed I'll go get my gun then." Well it's too late then because I can all but guarantee the shelves will be bare. I recently bought a Sig 556 and while I paid a few hundred more than what people paid this time last year the fact is prices are going up. I agree don't buy from a shop or supplier who's raping prices but I wasn't willing to sit around and watch prices go higher without making a move either.

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NRA Endowment Member