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  #1  
Old 05-20-2009, 06:23 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...61iY&feature=related

This somber video tells why whole prides of lions now stalk humans in Tanzania.

There have always been maneating lions, and the Tsavo area in Kenya, among others, has been particularly famous for that. But there now seem to be entire prides doing it in Tanzania.

See why here, but be aware that there is some graphic testimony by one African who lost his whole famly to lion attack.

Very informative, if a tad grisly.

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Old 05-20-2009, 07:58 PM
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Almost got all the way through it without them blaming it on global warming.....almost!

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Old 05-20-2009, 08:12 PM
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We humans that are unarmed must be pretty easy prey compared to the other animals out there.
Darwin?????
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Old 05-21-2009, 08:22 AM
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I watched the video twice and never saw any statistical or scientific data presented.

Basically, there were two anecdotal accounts of lion attacks bracketed by the comments of the "human/lion conflict expert" Hadass Kushnir. I did not notice any title (Dr., Professor, ...) preceding Kushnir's name. Just what are her credentials?

Are lion attacks on humans increasing? Or did someone decide to make a self-promoting, sensational video?

Does anyone actually keep meaningful records of this type attack? If not, how do they know if attacks are increasing, decreasing, or staying the same?
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Old 05-21-2009, 08:35 AM
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Just another reason not to go to Africa.
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Old 05-21-2009, 08:43 AM
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Hmm, maybe I better take a closer look at that SS Ruger #1 in .458 Lott at the local toy store!
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Old 05-21-2009, 08:51 AM
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I always wanted to shoot a cat.

Here might be my big chance!
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Old 05-21-2009, 09:47 AM
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Hi:
VAdoublegunner, While at the "Toy Shop" you might consider looking for a "Belt-Fed" Lion Gun.
Jimmy
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Old 05-21-2009, 10:05 AM
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This reminds me of an old movie...The Ghost and the Darkness. Wasn't this based on a true story about two man-eating lions in Africa decades ago? Or maybe just sensationalized by Hollywood.
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Old 05-21-2009, 10:15 AM
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The movie was supposed to be based on a true story. How much it was sensationalized I can't say. But knowing Hollywood, what do you think? Still, you have to love a movie that features a double rifle. I have heard that the stuffed giant lions are on display in the Chicago Museum of Natural History.

Rule Number One: Don't stand between the lion and the cow!
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Old 05-21-2009, 10:24 AM
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Lion medicine.

[img]http://world.guns****/machine/hk11.jpg[/img]
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Old 05-21-2009, 10:30 AM
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no teeth, no claws, no fur...served rare!

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Old 05-21-2009, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Flash:

Rule Number One: Don't stand between the lion and the cow!
Rule Number Two: Don't look like a cow to the lion.
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Old 05-21-2009, 11:30 AM
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The movie was loosely based on the book "The Man Eaters of Tsavo". But I don't remember anything like M. Douglas' character Remington in it. Don't let the lion huggers tell you that only the sick and the old turn to eating humans. Lions have a strong family culture and are taught. They are also lazy and will eat any meat that they find the easiest,and since a lot of African bush cultures don't bury their dead, well you can figure that out. Even alive, the Africans present a pretty easy meal compared to Zebra or Cape Buffalo.
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Old 05-21-2009, 11:42 AM
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What's all this 'bout shootin' lions 'n such?
The UN can't seem to sort out the problems in Africa maybe the lions can.
I heard Madonna tastes like chicken, maybe one will get her on the way to the orphanage
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Old 05-21-2009, 12:04 PM
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I thought that "The Ghost and the Darkness" was a pretty good movie. There was a very strange thing going on when the real attacks were taking place long ago in Africa. A ton of local folks that were working on the British railway project got draggged away in there sleep and eaten by what turned out to be two lions.

Here are some of the facts. Both lions were huge.

Both were male. This is supposedly very strange because male lions supposedly do not travel or hunt together (Except in San Fran!).

Another fact was that after they were finally killed, one was shown to have a severly infected tooth, which may have led it to prefer the soft meal of a human.

Here's a link to the movie trailer.
http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi368902937/

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Old 05-21-2009, 12:09 PM
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The Remington character in the movie replaced a series of hunters that tried their hand at killing the Tsavo lions.
The book is a great read. I actually thought that the movie did a fair presentation of it with a minimum of changes necessary to keep the story to film length.
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Old 05-21-2009, 12:28 PM
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Hi:
I recall a 1953 3D Movie "Bwana Devil" starring Robert Stack concerning Man-eating Lions in Africa harrassing Railroad Workers.
At the Movie's end His Rifle malfunctioned.
As a pre-teenager I wondered why would He have just one rifle in Africa?
Jimmy
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Old 05-21-2009, 12:41 PM
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An article on the current situation on maneating lions is in the current issue of Natural History magazine. Seems that as the native peasant farmers spread out, the usual prey like antelope and zebras move out, but bush pigs move in. So the lions live on bush pigs and farmers. 400+ in the last year of record, probably as many more unreported. Just a case of population dynamics and statistics.

They described the development of effective control and prevention. A farmer's wife went to the outhouse at night and did not return. He found the remaining half of her the next day. Instead of burying her, he laced the remains with rat poison. No more lion. The technique has spread with uneaten farmers and bush pigs poisoned for the lions' return. As the author explained, a peasant farmer cannot afford a lion gun, but anybody can afford rat poison.
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Old 05-21-2009, 02:53 PM
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Hi:
Reading this discussion I remember a question I asked Myself in the past when I viewed this Movie:
Is a .303 Enfield a "Lion Caliber"?
Jimmy
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Old 05-21-2009, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jimmyj:
Is a .303 Enfield a "Lion Caliber"?
Maybe, if it's coming out of a Maxim Gun.
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Old 05-21-2009, 04:52 PM
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I read that the way to hunt man eating lions
is to build a fire at night, sit next to it with
your rifle at the ready. A regular lion will know it's humans and shy away, a man eater will approach.
Cynic that I am, I sometimes wonder if Old Leo
isn't being used as a convenient scapegoat-cf the Chicago "gangland style" killing. I took a couple of courses in college on Non-Western civilizations, the instructor for the East African segment discussed "stateless societies"
when I talked to him in the corridor one time he said these stateless societies were usually semi-nomadic herder tribes, they would deal with a trouble maker by using him for lion bait.
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Old 05-21-2009, 04:55 PM
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I support the lion's right to eat anything that get in their way.
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Old 05-21-2009, 06:12 PM
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I don't know why so many people try to rationalize and theorize why a lion eats or kills a human. I would agree that if their usual or easier food source is in short supply they will eat other species if you happen to be convenient you may become their meal. I have been on many lion hunts and they are NOT intimidated by humans. In fact if you approach lions under certain conditions while they are mateing or females with young ones you stand a good chance of being charged. Humans are not something special to a big cat I have stalked up to and into prides of lions many times and they do not run away in a panic because a human is near. If you want to try something interesting when you confront a couple of lions turn around and run its the ultimate game of cat and mouse!

In Tanzania the Masai will leave little children to watch over their cattle with little regard to their safety.

I believe statically more Africans are killed by hippo than any other animal.

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Old 05-21-2009, 06:24 PM
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Well,
Then Seattle is safe!
A man eating Lion would starve to death up here before finding any food?
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Old 05-21-2009, 06:56 PM
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You have to wonder - Does a pride of maneating lions sit around and say "Tastes like chicken.".
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Old 05-21-2009, 07:07 PM
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Pehaps they were inspired by the movies "Soylent Green"?
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Old 05-21-2009, 07:09 PM
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IMHO: Considering that the human population in Africa is overpopulated, diseased and moving rapidly toward radical Islam, the lions are doing some necessary depredation to put things back in check.
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Old 05-21-2009, 07:12 PM
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Good point!
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Old 05-21-2009, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jim Watson:
An article on the current situation on maneating lions is in the current issue of Natural History magazine. Seems that as the native peasant farmers spread out, the usual prey like antelope and zebras move out, but bush pigs move in. So the lions live on bush pigs and farmers. 400+ in the last year of record, probably as many more unreported. Just a case of population dynamics and statistics.

They described the development of effective control and prevention. A farmer's wife went to the outhouse at night and did not return. He found the remaining half of her the next day. Instead of burying her, he laced the remains with rat poison. No more lion. The technique has spread with uneaten farmers and bush pigs poisoned for the lions' return. As the author explained, a peasant farmer cannot afford a lion gun, but anybody can afford rat poison.
That must be some potent rat poison that they have over there if it can drop lions. How big are those rats?
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Old 05-21-2009, 07:25 PM
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Nutria?
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Old 05-21-2009, 07:33 PM
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reminds me not to go too lion country, for the same reason I dont swim in the ocean
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Old 05-21-2009, 08:32 PM
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The late Jim Corbett's classic Maneaters Of Kumaon recounts the author's involvement with tigers rather than lions. Still, common if occasional interest in human flesh by large cats seems a strong link. For what it's worth, Corbett is eloquent and unyielding in his belief that only tigers screwed in some way by circumstance will resort to human prey. (See his preface to MOK.) Corbett's first-hand account of his life in India during the early 1900s shows a naturalist's eye for detail. His stories of hunting down maneating tigers preying on tiny hill villages in Kumaon province reflect the kind of understated, matter-of-fact courage we all hope to possess and fear we lack. Very good book.

OK, back to lions.

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Old 05-22-2009, 02:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Teach:
The late Jim Corbett's classic Maneaters Of Kumaon recounts the author's involvement with tigers rather than lions. Still, common if occasional interest in human flesh by large cats seems a strong link. For what it's worth, Corbett is eloquent and unyielding in his belief that only tigers screwed in some way by circumstance will resort to human prey. (See his preface to MOK.) Corbett's first-hand account of his life in India during the early 1900s shows a naturalist's eye for detail. His stories of hunting down maneating tigers preying on tiny hill villages in Kumaon province reflect the kind of understated, matter-of-fact courage we all hope to possess and fear we lack. Very good book.

OK, back to lions.

Jim Corbett was one of my primary role models as a boy, and I love his books. But many others say that he was sentimental about tigers, and made them out to be a little too noble. Some maneaters have been in excellent shape.

"The Man-eating Leopard of Rudraprayag" had his beginning as a man- eater when a flu epidenic in 1918 killed many Indians. Instead of being cremated and tossed in the Ganges as usual, many bodies were thrown out in the jungle. The cat got used to feeding on them and soon moved on to killing people.

He ate only a known 125 over a span of some years, showing that he also fed on deer, pig, and livestock. But when he wanted a human dinner, he got one.

Corbett hunted this cat harder than almost any other, often with the assistance of his close friends Lord and Lady (Sir William and Lady Jean) Ibbotson, and the leopard caused these experienced, courageous hunters great frustration. This cat probably came closer to killing Corbett than any other, although some were very close runners-up.

Peter Hathaway Capstick told me that he thought that most leopards were man-eaters if they saw the chance and were hungry. This was especially true if they saw a chance to snatch a native child. He felt that they did not discriminate much between black children and baboons and other monkeys that form a staple of their diet.

Keep in mind that one of the fossil protohuman skulls was found in a deposit of other bones, in a leopard's lair. The skull showed the teeth marks just where leopards grab monkeys for a quick kill. The fangs of a leopard's skull found in this lair exactly fit the tooth marks on the australopithecus skull. Leopards have been eating us since before we were fully human.

I'm sure that the same is true of lions, and the trend doesn't show much of a slowdown.

Some nature buffs of the intellectual, granola crunching sort have downplayed the role of lions in human deaths. They point out that Bushmen (!Kung!) tribesmen often drive lions off of their own kills. I have a book published in the 1950's by an old ivory hunter, John Alfred Jordan. He concedes that this happens. Said that maybe they get away with this nine times out of ten. "But," he warned, "it is worth thinking of that tenth time!" He was referring to "ordinary" lions. Man-eaters have a different play book.

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Old 05-22-2009, 02:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jimmyj:
Hi:
Reading this discussion I remember a question I asked Myself in the past when I viewed this Movie:
Is a .303 Enfield a "Lion Caliber"?
Jimmy
Well, it often was, in the early days of African settlement. The 7X57mm Mauser was also frequently used for the purpose. Phillip and Blayney Percival and others shot much of their game with the 6.5MM Mannlicher-Schoenauer.

John Hunter got his start as a professional hunter by shooting charging lions for their hides. He used a Boer War Mauser 7mm given to him by a relative.

Seven and eight MM Mausers, the .318 Westley Richards and the like killed a lot of big game before being displaced in the all-round class by such items as the 9.3X62 mm and the .375 H&H Magnum.

Some men even killed elephant with "solids" in the .303 and similar calibers.

In fact, one of the rifles used by the REAL Lt. Col. Patterson was a Lee-Enfield sporter. I'm not sure that he distinguished it from a Lee-Metford.

I have, "The Man-Eaters of Tsavo",but am too tired to look up what he called the rifle, other than a sporting .303.

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Old 05-22-2009, 02:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by wbraswell:
The movie was loosely based on the book "The Man Eaters of Tsavo". But I don't remember anything like M. Douglas' character Remington in it. Don't let the lion huggers tell you that only the sick and the old turn to eating humans. Lions have a strong family culture and are taught. They are also lazy and will eat any meat that they find the easiest,and since a lot of African bush cultures don't bury their dead, well you can figure that out. Even alive, the Africans present a pretty easy meal compared to Zebra or Cape Buffalo.
"Remington" didn't exist. He was a fictional character created to give Michael Douglas a starring role. The officer played by Val Kilmer was very real. Theodore Roosevelt persuaded him to write his famous account of two lions in particular that almost stopped the building of the Uganda Railway. This man later was awarded the Victoria Cross in WW I. (John Henry Patterson, VC)

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Old 05-22-2009, 03:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Leonard:

In Tanzania the Masai will leave little children to watch over their cattle with little regard to their safety.
Maybe their kids are brats?
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Old 05-22-2009, 06:39 AM
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"Is a .303 Enfield a "Lion Caliber"?"

It is,if that's what is in your hand at the time. I would love to have known more about the single shot falling block rifle that the doctor loaned him, that failed. It looked sweeeet. I wonder how many times Karamojo Bell was told that a 7X57 wasn't an elephant gun? I love reading about dangerous game, although some of the famous hunters were a lot better with a double rifle than a pen. If you haven't read "Death in the Long Grass" by Peter Hathaway Capstick, you should.
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Old 05-22-2009, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spotteddog:
Nutria?
Nope. Nutria are South American; not African.

Just use a LOT of rat poison!
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Old 05-22-2009, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
I heard Madonna tastes like chicken
Probably more like spoiled tuna. Still cat food.
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Old 05-22-2009, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by wbraswell:
"Is a .303 Enfield a "Lion Caliber"?"

It is,if that's what is in your hand at the time. ...
I have seen pictures of men using pistols to shoot buffalo in the old American West. I think that we can all agree that just because someone did it doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Similarly, (although a much less extreme mismatch), I know that a lot of African big game has been taken with the .303 British and the 7x57mm. There are better cartridges available to modern sportsmen.

In the picture, Val Kilmer is wielding what appears to be some type of sporter version of the Lee-Enfield. My guess is that these civilian rifles were chambered in cartridges that were more suitable to African big game. From looking at the two rifles, it appears that the prop man at least tried to get the guns right for the period and location.
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Old 05-22-2009, 09:51 AM
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Not being a ballistic expert, I was told in the past that the .303 Enfield cartridge was less ballistically than a .308 Winchester?
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Old 05-22-2009, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jimmyj:
Not being a ballistic expert, I was told in the past that the .303 Enfield cartridge was less ballistically than a .308 Winchester?
Jimmy
Modern .303 softpints launch from a 25.3 inch (Lee-Enfield) barrel at a nominal 2540 FPS. The .308 will go about 100 FPS faster. The difference at average hunting ranges is inconsequential.

However, I think the .308 is available with more complex bullets for when you might need especially deep penetration. The Nosler Partition is a good one. I don't think the .303 is available in other than basic, good softpoints. I think Winchester loads it with their PowerPoint. Still, Canadian sportsmen have killed a lot of moose with the .303.

I'd prefer a more strongly constructed bullet if I might have to penetrate the strong frontal chest muscles on a charging lion. The .30/06 is definitely a better light to medium game caliber than the .303. But I feel sure that I could eat well in Africa if all I had was a .303.

It must work, most of the time. Too many big animals have been killed with the .303 to doubt its effectiveness in competent hands.

It is certainly more rifle than the .30/30 or the .30/40 Krag, to which it is too often compared, mostly by people who are rating it on the basis of the old 215 grain bullet.

The SMLE made a good sporter, and many in military trim were used, too. If one gets one in good condition, not one of the badly cared for surplus rifles, it will also shoot better than many realize. Generally, the No. 4's shoot better, but the old No 1 action looks better on a hunting rifle. If I ever get rich, I intend to order a .303 sporter, largely for nostalgia/sentiment. But I do not doubt that it will put a deer down, fast.

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Old 05-22-2009, 04:45 PM
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The reserve in which the bridge scenes were filmed for Ghost and the Darkness is Songimvelo, in South Africa (check the credits in the video). I hunted there several years ago and took a blue wildebeest and an impala. The stalk to the wildebeest went past no less than 5 white rhino, two of which were cow-calf pairs! The stalk on the impala went through a dry stream bed loaded with pepper ticks and is probably where my case of tick fever came from after that trip (Thank goodness for tetracycline). There were no lions there, but plenty of great scenery, hippos, crocs, and all manner of other game. One of the tracker-skinners was actually run over by a warthog, but that's another story.
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