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  #1  
Old 06-03-2009, 07:20 PM
moosedog moosedog is offline
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I just couldn't pass up this one when I saw it. I have never handled one of these and had to have it. Now all I have to do is figure out what the stampings on the right side mean?
I think it means it was made by "ALBION"?
The gun is in pretty nice condition and locks up tight as a vault. Shoots pretty good even though it's probably built for the British 38-200 cartridge, it threw some surplus 38 S&W rounds low, but a decent group at 15 yards.
How about a little help with that stamping with the two stars.
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Old 06-03-2009, 07:30 PM
Rikkn Rikkn is offline
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Nice Enfield Moose dude, Enfields are like S&W's, you can't just own one......
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Old 06-03-2009, 07:31 PM
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Albion Motors in Scotland was a WW II contractor. The gun was also made at Enfield and in Australia.

I don't recognize the AT and two stars symbol, but suspect that the markings are not British.

With standard sights, .38 S&W ammo will shoot low. They had interchangeable sight blades for those lighter bullets. Handloads with 195 grain (or so) cast bullets should shoot to the sights. Real .38/200 ammo is so collectible now that you almost can't find any, and it would be too old to rely on.

Ask in the British Gun Pub at www.gunboards.com about the odd markings. The crown and BNP is the normal British Nitro Proved proofmark.

Your gun looks to be in nice condition. Albion had some problems in learning to make revolvers, and are generally considered to be the least well made Enfield .38's. But yours looks good in the photo. Hang onto it: they are becoming very collectible, especially the rare versions.

Because of the faint markings, I think yours MAY have been arsenal refinshed.
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Old 06-03-2009, 07:31 PM
GatorFarmer GatorFarmer is offline
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Old West Scrounger sells .38/200 ammo. Sorry, can't help with the rest.
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Old 06-03-2009, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by GatorFarmer:
Old West Scrounger sells .38/200 ammo. Sorry, can't help with the rest.
What do they charge for it? Is it loaded with 200 grain lead bullets? New production?
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Old 06-03-2009, 07:49 PM
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That's an Enfield (RSAF) production No.2 Revolver.
A poorly struck marking with the bottom portion missing. The model is the MkI**.

The first character is the late 'EnfielD' marking of an E superimposed over a D. The second is the 'I' for MkI and the two stars (5 point stars being the later type used) for the last modification in the series to purpose built DA only.

Should be late war time mfg in the 'S to 'Z' serial# prefix. Probably mid '42 to the end of the war.

'Albion Motors Ltd' mfg revolvers had Albion spelled out on the side in a sort of script.
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Old 06-03-2009, 07:51 PM
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I was just kind of speculating that the "A" on the right side may have meant Albion but the gun is marked "ENGLAND" on the right side of the chamber, so I guess it wasn't made in Scotland. Here's a picture of the whole right side with the ENGLAND stamping.
The lanyard ring has been removed.
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Old 06-03-2009, 07:52 PM
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Moosedog-

Why do you think it was made by Albion?

T-Star
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Old 06-03-2009, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Texas Star:
Moosedog-

Why do you think it was made by Albion?

T-Star
P.S. Your last post crossed with mine. The "England" stamp had to be applied to indicate origin before surplus sales.

It appears on many British arms, including S&W's they purchased.

What you call a "chamber" is the cylinder. It contains six chambers.
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Old 06-03-2009, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
What you call a "chamber" is the cylinder. It contains six chambers.
Yeah, what the hell was I thinking of?
I appreciate all the feedback on this revolver, you guys never fail to amaze me with all your knowledge.
The Enfield is a pretty unique design, probably over engineered by American standards. The person I bought it from had it listed as a Webley and Scott. Was the Enfield design "borrowed"?

Should be late war time mfg in the 'S to 'Z' serial# prefix. Probably mid '42 to the end of the war.

2152, your are correct. The serial number is ZA3970 and on top of the barrel rib it is marked with a proof and "43".
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Old 06-03-2009, 08:25 PM
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That's a nice looking revolver! Like Rikkn says, they are hard to get along with just one. Same goes for the Webleys.

The BNP/crown markings are 'Birmingham Nitro Proof' markings. Frame, barrel and every chamber on the cylinder usually. Those are commercial proofs applied when the gun was surplused but before it was allowed to be sold in the UK on the commercial market. The 'England' stamp in an export marking when the gun was most likely shipped to the US for sale in the 50's or 60's. Just denotes country of origin,,not to be confused with the import marks used today that came into use since 1986 that demand importer, country of mfg, and caliber.

The Bakelite composition grips are correct for a Mk1** revolver. The ID disc was supposed to be used to stamp unit indentification, weapon #, etc onto it, but the brittle nature of the Bakelite made most of the stampings go right onto the frame backstrap and frame itself.

Have fun! They are great shooters. There are still WW2 surplus 38 Enfield 'web gear' holsters, belts and ammo pouches around yet.
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  #12  
Old 06-03-2009, 08:43 PM
GatorFarmer GatorFarmer is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Texas Star:
Quote:
Originally posted by GatorFarmer:
Old West Scrounger sells .38/200 ammo. Sorry, can't help with the rest.
What do they charge for it? Is it loaded with 200 grain lead bullets? New production?
34.95 a box of 50, 200 grain bullets, says it is new production (at least that is the section that it is in). Here's the link -
http://www.ows-ammo.com/catalo.../21/products_id/1113
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  #13  
Old 06-03-2009, 08:49 PM
2152hq 2152hq is offline
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"The person I bought it from had it listed as a Webley and Scott. Was the Enfield design "borrowed"?

The British Gov't did indeed 'borrow' the design from Webley & Scott.

After WW1, the British Gov't sought to replace the heavy Webley MkVI .455 revolver with a lighter revolver and in 38caliber. Webley who had for many years supplied the Gov't there with their revolvers in several versions (Marks) took their commercial MkIV 38 cal revolver and began to modify it to the demands of the gov't.

The British gov't had their Royal Small Arms Factory, Enfield (RSAF Enfield) working with Webley on the project, making tool room models, test pattern pieces, etc. RSAF/E was supposed to mfg the new revolver in quantity once adopted.

What happened was that the gov't allowed Webley to do most all of the R&D on the project and then cut them out of the picture. The Gov't completed the work on the new revolver themselves at Enfield, then set up production there in the early '30s. Webley & Scott got nothing for their efforts in the project.

W&S sued the gov't there for development costs but lost but for a very small amount for 'inventors awards'.

During WW2, the gov't contracted with Albion Motors, Ltd in Scotland, and Howard Auto Cultivators in Australia for additional No.2 revolvers. The 'Howard Auto Cultivators' marked guns are the rare ones.
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  #14  
Old 06-03-2009, 09:13 PM
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In British practice a star-*-indicates a minor but significant design change. In our practice, think of the M3 and M3A1 "Grease guns". The original No. 2 Mark I-I have one-was
SA/DA, in the 1930s the hammer spur was removed
at the request of tank crews, the later** versions had the SA notch removed. They are interesting pieces of history, along with the S&W Victory models the last military revolvers issued. IIRC the Enfield Mark II was issued in the 1870s, mainly to the NWMP (as the Mounties were called then).
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  #15  
Old 06-04-2009, 12:51 AM
RON in PA RON in PA is offline
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Just a note on the ammo for the Enfield revolvers, while originally designed for the 200 grain lead bullet, the WW2 issue ammo was actually a jacketed 174 grain bullet. Compliance to the Hague Convention.
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  #16  
Old 06-04-2009, 09:36 AM
Shooter10 Shooter10 is offline
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Glad to find so much knowledge concerning the old top break W & S and Enfield revolvers. Now, I know there was several different versions of .22 rimfire models, but I have a .32 caliber one. For the life of me, can not remember which one or if any of the military contractors made it, but it looks like the original W&S, except laid in the sun too long and shrank. Guess I need to dig it out, look it over well. Think it has about a 3 inch barrel, and appears to be 90 +%. Anyone know of such a strange critter?
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Old 06-04-2009, 10:52 AM
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Shooter10. I have a 32 S&W Long Webley and a 22 Target model. Both are "extremely" hard to find.

The 32 S&W Long models were made post war for police contracts in the middle east and Africa.

The 22's were also post war. I've got some pic's stored and can post them tonight.

Enjoy those Webley's & Enfield's. I do.
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Old 06-04-2009, 01:05 PM
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Some cops in Ontario and in South Africa (Railway Police) have used .32 Webleys. I've seen some on Gunboards.

Guess they didn't have to shoot many people, or they'd have opted for something larger. Well, in time, they did.

T-Star

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Old 06-04-2009, 03:06 PM
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Thanks for the info guys. I figured it might not be real common, as so far I have never been able to find it in any books listing gun values. Even won a couple of small bets with it, from those that stated such did not exist. Never have fired it, although I'm sure it has been, just not by me. Thanks again
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Old 06-04-2009, 03:30 PM
GatorFarmer GatorFarmer is offline
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I haven't seen one in person, but the Webley tooling was sold to a firm in India. Topbreaks of the Webley pattern are still being made for the local market in India, where - if I recall - the .32 caliber guns are the largest caliber generally allowed for citizens to purchase.

From comments on Indian gunboards (yes, there are some), quality is rather lackluster and supplies of (expensive there) Magtech ammunition are considered premium compared to the locally made fodder.

Still, it's interesting how long lived the basic design has been.
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Old 06-04-2009, 05:32 PM
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Moose,

I've got a bit of conjecture about your AT** mark. As you know, it's in the area of the frame reserved for the manufacturer's mark and model number, and I think that's exactly what it is. Imagine that the "A" is actually a "D" with a minus sign part way across it, and that the lower part of the "D" is lightly struck or polished off. That "D-minus" mark is found on Bren machine guns made at the Royal Small Arms Factory, Enfield. I suspect that mark was used on later revolvers in place of the more common script markings. The "T" is probably an "I" with the bottom lightly struck or polished off, and is the revolver Mark identifier, "I**".

Anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Buck
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Old 06-04-2009, 06:05 PM
moosedog moosedog is offline
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Sounds reasonable to me Haggis.
This is a unfamiliar territory i've entered and all this information is just great. Thanks.

Now all I have to do is buy a holster for it.
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Old 06-05-2009, 05:35 AM
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Here's a pic of the 22 Webley.



A here's the 32. It is in fact a South African Railway Police gun.



Lastly a pic of my two Enfield's in 38 S&W. With a ammunition crate of 38/200.

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Old 06-03-2019, 06:19 PM
MrElk2 MrElk2 is offline
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Default Wonder what mine is hmmm

Not sure if it is a enfield shows serial ZG8052 has emblem ESC242 767 3.5 tons any help figuring what I have would be appreciated
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Old 06-03-2019, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
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Not sure if it is a enfield shows serial ZG8052 has emblem ESC242 767 3.5 tons any help figuring what I have would be appreciated
I just posted all there is to know in your old thread

Need date and prices on 3 S&W revolvers
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Old 06-03-2019, 07:00 PM
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Great thread! My Dad has one he was given by my uncle for some forgotten favor. My uncle got it from a Russian in Iran during WWII. It has a set of stunning walnut grips and the holster loops over the left shoulder for a right handed guy. Has enough bullet loops to keep going quite awhile. I haven't looked at it in years. Will have to pester my Dad to drag it out next time I see him.
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Old 06-03-2019, 09:35 PM
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Great thread! My Dad has one he was given by my uncle for some forgotten favor. My uncle got it from a Russian in Iran during WWII. It has a set of stunning walnut grips and the holster loops over the left shoulder for a right handed guy. Has enough bullet loops to keep going quite awhile. I haven't looked at it in years. Will have to pester my Dad to drag it out next time I see him.
I'd like to see that rig and gun.
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Old 06-03-2019, 09:48 PM
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Real neat service revolvers, like the Webley .380s, they served for many years in Commonwealth service.

Even today, they make solid defensive handguns.
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Old 06-03-2019, 10:47 PM
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...Even today, they make solid defensive handguns.

Especially when fed Buffalo Bore ammo. 125gr. HC @ 1000 fps.
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Old 06-04-2019, 07:03 PM
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I reload for Webleys (0.455 and 380) and also for Enfield Mk 1 and the Enfield in 0.455. If you can get 180 grain 0.362 or 3 heads in lead, then you basically have the 380/200 or the old Colt Police load. What people may not realize is that Enfield built a direct mimic of the Webley Mk VI in 0.455 after WWI Somewhere close to 25K were made between roughly 1920 and 1926. They will have either an "A" or "B" prefix. Just as good as the Webley MKVI. Be careful and do not use 0.45 ACP in the cut 0.455 pistols as that load is close to the Webley proof load. Download to give ~700 fps. I use 0.45 AR in my cut Webley's with a Colt 0.454 sized 255 grain lead head. I do have the correct 265 grain heads from JET Bullets in Alberta and they work in either 0.45 AR or in 0.455 cases from Starline (used in my 1935 Commercial MK VI). Dave_n
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Old 06-06-2019, 01:43 AM
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I reload for Webleys (0.455 and 380) and also for Enfield Mk 1 and the Enfield in 0.455. If you can get 180 grain 0.362 or 3 heads in lead, then you basically have the 380/200 or the old Colt Police load. What people may not realize is that Enfield built a direct mimic of the Webley Mk VI in 0.455 after WWI Somewhere close to 25K were made between roughly 1920 and 1926. They will have either an "A" or "B" prefix. Just as good as the Webley MKVI. Be careful and do not use 0.45 ACP in the cut 0.455 pistols as that load is close to the Webley proof load. Download to give ~700 fps. I use 0.45 AR in my cut Webley's with a Colt 0.454 sized 255 grain lead head. I do have the correct 265 grain heads from JET Bullets in Alberta and they work in either 0.45 AR or in 0.455 cases from Starline (used in my 1935 Commercial MK VI). Dave_n

Probably ought to add that those Enfield .455's of the 1920's are exactly like MK VI Webleys. You have to look on the right side of the frame to see the Enfield marking! I owned one and I've also had a std. MK VI Webley, actually my first handgun, age 13.


They were NOT the older Enfield .476 pattern that was not well received in the 1880's.

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Old 06-06-2019, 02:17 AM
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Nice resurrection of a ten year old thread!! Still of interest to many of us...I have an Enfield somewhere around here.... Couple of Webleys as well!!



Here's an illustration of some of the loads that will chamber in the Enfield, and that have been produced over the years. Not mine, I saved it from an earlier thread, apologies to whoever put it together...



Best Regards, Les
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Old 06-06-2019, 11:45 AM
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All I can say about this is...

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