Actually, two questions...

1. Does anyone know if the "Rock Island Arsenal 1909" holsters came without a toe plug? Many of these old holsters are found in poor condition and missing the toe plug (leather end cap at the bottom of the holster). I think this particular holster was poplular with cavalry troops and the toe plug kept the dirt out.

I've come across one that doesn't have a toe plug. My first thought was that it was missing but I don't see any stitch marks. I'll take a closer look tomorrow and see if I can take some pics.

2. Which S&W model revolver would have been used in these 1909 holsters?

Thanks!

__________________
Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

Well I dont know what Smith put in them, but Colt had a New Service US Model of 1909 which was a 45 Colt prior to the US Model 1917 45acp

Thanks, Curtis...

That's what I was thinking.. hmmm.. if I get the holster, I'd have to buy a Colt.

I've got a S&W m1917 but not a holster. I know it would fit, but I'd rather get a m1917 holster for it.

I'm still thinking the holster is missing bottom plug.

__________________
Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

I just looked at my RIA holster dated 1909. It has a bottom plug sewn in. However, it is made for the Colt Army revolvers, in 38 Long Colt caliber, Models of 1892 to 1903. The Colt M 1909 revolver is a honkin' big gun, made on the big Colt New Service frame, in 45 caliber, and the 38 LC revolvers are a lot smaller. Try your S&W 1917 in the holster; if it doesn't fit, you have a holster made for the 38 LC revolvers.

The think the holster for the Colt 1909 in.45LC is the same holster as the 1917. But the earlier 1909 dated holsters are extremely scarce. I have a good number of Colt/Smith !909-1917 large frame revolvers, and have yet to find a 1909 dated holster. I know they exist, but are very hard to find. One collector told me they sell in the $300-$400 range in useable condition, and that was maybe 4-5 years ago.

Linda, I'm confused by your question. There were only 12 made of the Rock Island Arsenal holster, Model of 1909. They were closed at the muzzle end, not by a plug, but by the way they were folded over and stitched shut. You say "many are found, etc." so I'm assuming your holster is not the super rare , only 12 made, RIA, Model 1909, which was a swivel type holster for the .38 revolver. Having said all the above, I'll bet what you have is one of the 100s of 1,000s .38 DA army revolver hosters made at RIA, beginning in 1892 thru 1909, in various configurations and modifications, and your example happens to be one made in 1909 at RIA and so dated. Many of these were recalled and remodeled to add updated changes during that period. Early examples had the toe plug with a metal ring attached for securing the holster to a trooper's leg with a thong. Later those were removed, when modifications were made to recalled holsters. None were made originally w/o the toe plug, however field modifications ( non-regulation) sometimes removed the plug to facilitate quick drainage of rain & debri collected in the hoster in tropical areas, like the Phillipines. Meadow's book, "U.S.Military Holsters and Pistol Cartridge Boxes" give substantial information on these holsters and the change made betweem 1892-1909. Good luck, Ed Cornett # 15

Opoefc: My holster has a hole in the middle of the plug, apparently for the ring, but the ring has been removed and the hole plugged from the inside with something that looks like leather. It is an RIA dated 1909; when was the ring removed? Also, if there were only 12 of the RIA holsters made for the M 1909 Colt in 45 Colt (actually a modification of the 45 Colt with a slightly larger rim diameter), what were all the M 1909s carried in? Were there other makers of the holster for the M 1909? I, too, have been looking for something to carry my M1909 in, for several years and haven't found anything. Incidentally, my 1917 holster has shrunk to the point where the S&W 1917 will enter, but it's too small for the Colt 1917.

Hi Linda:

Here is a pic of the US Model of 1909 holster in my collection. These holsters did indeed have a plug, although it is not well illustrated in my photo. Sufficient quantities of these holsters were made at RIA and at the Manila Ordnance Depot to accommodate the M1909 .45 revolvers purchased from Colt.

As mentioned above far more common are the slightly smaller in dimension holsters designed for the Colt .38 DA revolvers. They, too, originally came with plugs in the toe. If the holster you are considering is missing the plug my advice would be to pass on it.

HTH.

__________________
Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Thats a beautiful set-up. Very nice.

Ed & Charlie...

Thanks for all the information!

Charlie, that's a great looking set up... very nice!!

I took a closer look at the holster today. There is no swivel, the lower portion is attached by brass rivets.

And yes, on close inspection, you can see the stitch marks where the "missing" toe plug was held in place. I don't know how I missed it! When I looked at it today I thought, "you'd have to be blind not to see the stitch holes"!

I'll find one eventually... they do show up, however most of the times, the plug is missing.

This one was had an additional stamping on the flap which interested me.. must be a cavalry unit:

M3 CAV
20

__________________
Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

Linda: M Troop, 3rd Cavalry?

Ordnanceguy: Bob Murphy's book on the New Service shows between 13,000 and 18,000 M 1909s made for the Army. The USMC got 1300 of them, with a round butt. The Navy got some too, but he doesn't give a hard number, suggesting it was around 1100. Perhaps there is newer data. He shows a holster dated 1915, but doesn't identify the maker. He says that after service in the Phillipines, few holsters survived. Were there any other holster makers besides RIA and Manila?

Colin

Cyrano:

Scott Meadows reports that RIA made a total of 17,356 Model of 1909 holsters for the Army. Not included here are the M1909 holsters made by Graton & Knight in WW1 to accommodate the M1917 Colt and S&W revolvers. The MOD also is said to have modified a quantity of holsters designed for the SAA in order to fit the M1909 revolvers.

The Navy had its own M1909 revolvers and adopted the Mills No. 310 woven holster to carry them in.

The Marines had about 1200 of their own, distinctive version of the M1909 revolver. RIA made 600 leather holsters for them. It is assumed that the balance of the Marine revolvers were carried in the Mills tan, woven holsters which bore the USMC insignia on the flap snap.

HTH.

__________________
Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

It's possible opoefc thinked to something else, but all US martial leather revolver holsters, except the very early .38 and the last M4 made in 1944 (and of course Victory models), have the bottom plug with the brass ring for the leg thong. You can find also swivel only in few commercials issued as private purchase. In the pic my two M1909, one RIA dtd 1911 for the Colt M1909 45LC and the other for the US M1917 45ACP revolver made by G&K and dated 1918. You can easily see plugs and brass rings. Too bad in the 1911 one the owner cut a small piece for easier access to the trigger.

This is an unmarked M1909 with the swivel in M1912 fashion. It's a commercial (no big US), I think WWI era, but an interesting holster. It appeared on ebay one year ago but too bad I was outbidded.