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  #1  
Old 01-27-2010, 01:27 PM
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I recently completed my latest project. A long recoil operated SBS based on a Browning A-5 "Light Twelve".


It started out as a refinished gun with a "dog knot" on the bbl. After getting back my Form one I shortened the bbl. to 14 inches and the stock to 12" LOP. The original horn buttplate was still in place but had some slight worm damage so I found a later vintage buttplate to work down to correct dimensions. Then I put the horn buttplate back for another gun that may need it. NFA marking requirements were then accomplished using Brownell's letter punches.

I have recently put about 200 rds through it. Function was flawless.

The gun is a blast to shoot and will put a lot of buckshot on target in a hurry.

BTW, this is a legal NFA weapon. Cost: $350 for the basic shotgun. $200 for the tax stamp. No charge for the labor. Joy of doing the work and owning it...priceless



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Old 01-27-2010, 01:34 PM
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Please explain what NFA markings were required and where did you put them. Also why did you shorten the stock to 12"?? I would love to do that to an old non collector grade A-5 barrel but I would probably leave my stock alone. That would be the catz nutz as far as a quick shooting defense shotgun is concerned.
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Old 01-27-2010, 01:51 PM
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Looks good, what is a "dog knot"??
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Old 01-27-2010, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by CAJUNLAWYER View Post
Please explain what NFA markings were required and where did you put them. Also why did you shorten the stock to 12"?? I would love to do that to an old non collector grade A-5 barrel but I would probably leave my stock alone. That would be the catz nutz as far as a quick shooting defense shotgun is concerned.
When a conversion like this is done it changes the firearm from Title I to Title II status. The name and address of the new "maker" has to be marked on the receiver of the firearm. In this case that would be me.

I shortened the stock to make the gun more compact, and it really doesn't handicap my shooting. Of course I can understand someone not wanting to shorten the stock. Which BTW it is not all that easy to work down the buttplate and refit it. And the buttplate has a slight curve to it so the stock cut has to have the same curve. But I wanted it shortened and I did not want a recoil pad because of the tendency of rubber pads to sometimes bind on clothing.
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Old 01-27-2010, 02:09 PM
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Looks good, what is a "dog knot"??
A dog knot is one of those ugly choke devices that used to be added to shotguns. They worked, but they looked like heck to many of us and detract from the value of the gun. I mentioned it and the fact this shotgun had been refinished, so someone wouldn't think I destroyed a valuable collectors item.
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Old 01-27-2010, 02:13 PM
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So If I were to buy a barrel cut it down to 14" I would not need anything unless I put it on my A-5. At that time it would become a titleII weapon and unless I had the permit and labled the gun, I would be in violation of Federal Law? Correct?
Next question:
What constitures proper markings? Just my name?? (nevermind this one I just re read your post)
Next question:
If Joe da gunsmith cut the barrel would his name have to be listed as the "manufacturer" or would it still be me as I was the assembler?
Not meaning to sound smart assesdbut this intrigues me-I really like your gun.
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Old 01-27-2010, 02:35 PM
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I love it! Shortening the LOP helps in close quarter maneuvering as well as eliminating the possibility of the stock hanging up on clothing or whatever. By changing the mass of the barrel that much, have you had to do anything different with the friction ring setup? Looks like you have just enough barrel left to compress it and loosen the barreel nut...beautiful workmanship on a platform most tend to leave alone.
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Old 01-27-2010, 03:06 PM
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Sir, neat rig. Reminds me of Clyde Barrow's "whippet" guns.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.
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Old 01-27-2010, 03:13 PM
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So If I were to buy a barrel cut it down to 14" I would not need anything unless I put it on my A-5. At that time it would become a titleII weapon and unless I had the permit and labled the gun, I would be in violation of Federal Law? Correct?
Next question:
What constitures proper markings? Just my name?? (nevermind this one I just re read your post)
Next question:
If Joe da gunsmith cut the barrel would his name have to be listed as the "manufacturer" or would it still be me as I was the assembler?
Not meaning to sound smart assesdbut this intrigues me-I really like your gun.
Having a 14 inch bbl. and a gun that it would fit on and no paperwork could be considered constructive possession. That's why I have resisted the temptation to have a second bbl. of the same length with a vent rib and screw in chokes. I own other A-5's which are Title I guns.

ATF marking requirements are that the markings must be at least 1/16 inch and have a minimum depth of .003.

You could get Joe the Gunsmith to cut your bbl. but you would still be the manufacturer. The Form one is an "application to make and register a firearm". You are the one who the gun will be registered to so you are listed as the manufacturer even if Joe the Gunsmith did part of the work or your neighbor Billy Bob. A sale of the gun would require a Form 4. In all cases the gun is registered to the owner.

In the case of individuals registering an NFA weapon, The Form one is your registration.
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Old 01-27-2010, 03:14 PM
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As I told Jessie when he sent me these pics a few weeks ago, Lone Wolf McQuade would be proud! I want one, only I believe I'd shorten the stock even more.

BTW, Peyton: The term "dog knot" derives from the peculiarly placed prostate gland swelling at the base of a dog's penis. Some of us old-timers use the term to refer to any unsightly protrusion on an otherwise aesthetically pleasing device, such as the old external choke devices Jessie removed when he shortened the barrel. "Poly Choke" was the most common one.
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Old 01-27-2010, 03:27 PM
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... By changing the mass of the barrel that much, have you had to do anything different with the friction ring setup? Looks like you have just enough barrel left to compress it and loosen the barreel nut...beautiful workmanship on a platform most tend to leave alone.
No I haven't changed anything as far as the friction ring setting. Except to put the pieces back together correctly. Like many used A-5's I have encountered the parts of the friction assembly were not properly assembled on this gun. Most malfunctions of A-5's are because of either incorrect setting of the friction ring and band or incorrect assembly. You will tend to get malfunctions on any A-5 if for example the split in the bronze friction piece and the split in the steel band around it do not match. The whole assembly tends to grab the magazine tube rather than slide on it. Set it up right and these guns work regardless of bbl. length.

On this gun I put just enough oil on the sliding surface of the mag. tube that I get reliable ejection even if the gun isn't shouldered.

As for disassembly; you are correct. There is just enough room to push down slightly on the bbl. to loosen the nut.
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Old 01-27-2010, 05:35 PM
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I like it... I saw a very similar but well used one a few years back at a butcher shop where they did live kills... I commented on it and the owner said it was for the occasional non cooperative cow... I mentioned "paperwork" and he looked at me like I was nutz...
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Old 01-27-2010, 05:47 PM
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I like it... I saw a very similar but well used one a few years back at a butcher shop where they did live kills... I commented on it and the owner said it was for the occasional non cooperative cow... I mentioned "paperwork" and he looked at me like I was nutz...
I know what you mean. Some folks just don't understand that there is more to it than just using a hacksaw. Violations of NFA are very serious.

I would encourage anyone contemplating bypassing the law to think twice. A $200 tax stamp and a piece of paper are a piece of cake compared to getting caught with an illegal NFA item.
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Old 01-27-2010, 05:50 PM
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Very nice looking and interesting! What is the weight? I imagine still somewhere around 5 pounds? They were stout to begin with.
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Old 01-27-2010, 05:55 PM
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that thing is FREAKING COOL ! a serious home defense rig ! ok. im goona seriously look into doing mine.

my old beater A5 that i got for $150 is cut to 18.5 inches and the buttstock is standard, but i could go a few more inches and keep it legal ( for now). i too want to cut it down as short as yours and have a metal or hard plasatic butt plate to avoid binding.

It is my understanding that even in commie PRK, a SBS can be made by way of a special trust and a C&R gun only (my A5 dates to 1920's) and the tax stamp of course. your finished product is so awesome!!

Can you send the barrel to Briley and have a screw-in choke made or is it too wide at 14 inches ? how does it pattern otherwise ?

what is your total overall length ?

what did you do to "custom mark" the receiver ? or do you mark the barrel or both ?

Tim

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Old 01-27-2010, 06:02 PM
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Sir, neat rig. Reminds me of Clyde Barrow's "whippet" guns.
i dont think clyde went this short. see first 3 photos.
Barrow weapons

NKJ, yours is much cooler !
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Old 01-27-2010, 06:29 PM
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Very nice looking and interesting! What is the weight? I imagine still somewhere around 5 pounds? They were stout to begin with.
The weight is 6.8 lbs. empty. With 5 rds. of Nobelsport magnum buckshot it up the weight to 7.4 lbs.

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that thing is FREAKING COOL ! a serious home defense rig ! ok. im goona seriously look into doing mine.

my old beater A5 that i got for $150 is cut to 18.5 inches and the buttstock is standard, but i could go a few more inches and keep it legal ( for now). i too want to cut it down as short as yours and have a metal or hard plasatic butt plate to avoid binding.

It is my understanding that even in commie PRK, a SBS can be made by way of a special trust and a C&R gun only (my A5 dates to 1920's) and the tax stamp of course. your finished product is so awesome!!

Can you send the barrel to Briley and have a screw-in choke made or is it too wide at 14 inches ? how does it pattern otherwise ?

what is your total overall length ?

what did you do to "custom mark" the receiver ? or do you mark the barrel or both ?

Tim
In states that allow SBS, it can be done on a Form 1. AFTER the tax stamped paper is sent back to you.

OAL is 31 inches. I am sure it could be fitted with choke tubes of one brand or another, As it is it gives a wide open pattern but will still keep most pellets in the chest area of a sillywet at 20 yds, using the ammo mentioned before. Other loads would tighten it up some but for me it is a close range weapon anyway and I prefer the spread. I will only have choke tubes installed if I decide to use it for hunting. Even at that it has already accounted for a couple of running rabbits (LOL)

The marking requirements are per NFA regulations. I marked the gun with my name and address on the receiver. Just like any manufacturer does.

you mentioned the Barrow gun. Those probably had a 15 to 17 inch bbl, by my guess is they had a shorter stock than mine. B&C were very little people. Also their guns were Remington Model 11's which are heavier and also lacked the speed loading feature of post war Brownings.
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Old 01-27-2010, 06:49 PM
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That is a fantastic project gun. Congrats!

How long did it take to get the tax stamp back once you sent it in?

Here's the form:

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5320-1.pdf
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Old 01-27-2010, 07:03 PM
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It took 5 months and a few days, to get the tax stamped Form 1 back. There is a tremendous back log at the NFA branch of BATFE.

BTW, a big THANK YOU to each of you for the compliments!!

I would be delighted to assist any of you who are unsure of the process. It requires a Form 1 if you are going to do the work on a gun you already own. For an individual it also requires a sign off by the CLEO and submission of fingerprint cards. And don't forget to return a filled out "Certificate Of Compliance" along with a check for $200. Then you send it all in and sit back and wait.

The wait is the worst part, but it does allow you time to dream up your next project (LOL)
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Old 01-27-2010, 07:17 PM
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Great pics, I have something similar in mind for my coach gun.
Take it down to between a 12 and 14" barrel and a couple of inches off the stock.


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Old 01-27-2010, 07:18 PM
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Years ago I got hit hard in a burglary loseing many guns. Two of about 9 showed up. The detective called me and said he had a gun of mine but couldnt give it to me as it had been chopped. I went down, identified it, and said lets unscrew the barrel and give me the action.
This guy was serious as you can see! I went the court and looked him over, also about got threw out as I got up to try and tell the judge many more guns were involved. Judge shined me on, told me to shut up and go see the DA. That went no where!

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Old 01-28-2010, 03:48 AM
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edited for correctness

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Old 01-28-2010, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElToro View Post
that thing is FREAKING COOL ! a serious home defense rig ! ok. im goona seriously look into doing mine.

my old beater A5 that i got for $150 is cut to 18.5 inches and the buttstock is standard, but i could go a few more inches and keep it legal ( for now). i too want to cut it down as short as yours and have a metal or hard plasatic butt plate to avoid binding.

It is my understanding that even in commie PRK, a SBS can be made by way of a special trust and a C&R gun only (my A5 dates to 1920's) and the tax stamp of course. your finished product is so awesome!!

Can you send the barrel to Briley and have a screw-in choke made or is it too wide at 14 inches ? how does it pattern otherwise ?

what is your total overall length ?

what did you do to "custom mark" the receiver ? or do you mark the barrel or both ?

Tim
Be careful! As I understand it, legal shotgun barrel length is 18 inches. You don't have much to spare.
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Old 01-28-2010, 12:11 PM
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Forester is right. Anything less than 18 inches puts the weapon under the regulations of the NFA, and you must have the approved and tax stamped Form one back in hand before cutting the bbl.

Someone asked about the buttplate. That was worked down with a belt sander. I am not sure how well that would work on a horn buttplate and I was scared to try it, but it worked fine on the later vintage FN buttplate that I used. Also keep in mind that you can only cut the stock so short and still be able to use an original buttplate. Cut it too short and the stock would be so small that the screw holes would be past the edges of the stock.

I wish I had taken pictures as the work progressed but I didn't. I promise that my next project will have pics before, after and during.
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Old 01-28-2010, 01:03 PM
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This may be a silly question, but that never stopped me in the past. As to the required markings of your name and address, what happens if you move?

Thanks for the great thread.
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Old 01-28-2010, 03:09 PM
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This may be a silly question, but that never stopped me in the past. As to the required markings of your name and address, what happens if you move?

Thanks for the great thread.
The name and address of any maker is required on all guns. If that maker changes addresses that does not change where it was made.

However with NFA weapons you are required to notify the NFA branch of ATF of your new address. If you are also moving across a stateline you must check to make sure your weapon is legal there and a form 5320 must be submitted for approval before the NFA item can be transported out of state.
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Old 01-28-2010, 03:17 PM
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All the info here on doing a F1 for a SBS, SBR, etc, is pretty much on target, so I've got nothing to add. However, for the guy in CA, I believe you will also need a state permit, which is virtually impossible to obtain. I think you may be after the impossible.
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Old 01-28-2010, 03:52 PM
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Steave, you very well may be right about Ca. State laws can be much more restrictive than Federal law on NFA weapons. In some jurisdictions no NFA is allowed, in others, certain items are prohibited but not others. Fortunately my state is NFA friendly. There are no restrictions beyond that imposed by federal law. Back in 2003 we even got a bill passed that requires the CLEO to sign off as long as you are a law abiding citizen. It is not discretionary.
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Old 01-28-2010, 04:15 PM
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I'd like to have that exact gun, only in the legal 18.5" barrel length, so as to avoid the paperwork. A5's are cool guns; my Dad has a 1957 vintage model he bought new, and it is FLAWLESS. Way too nice to chop up, but there are beaters out there, if nothing else, use a Remington Model 11.
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Old 01-28-2010, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
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The name and address of any maker is required on all guns. If that maker changes addresses that does not change where it was made.

However with NFA weapons you are required to notify the NFA branch of ATF of your new address. If you are also moving across a stateline you must check to make sure your weapon is legal there and a form 5320 must be submitted for approval before the NFA item can be transported out of state.
Thanks. I learned a lot in this thread.
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Old 01-28-2010, 04:42 PM
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Really nice job!
Is the transfer tax upon resale of it $200 again, or does it get the cheap rate like an AOW.

IIRC you could avoid the need for the CLEO sign off if you are applying for an NFA tax stamp in the name of a Corporation. Is that still true?

Not that everyone is in that position but there are a fair number of people that are business owners that are and it can be one way to side step an otherwise uncooperative local Sheriff or Chief of Police.

Also when cutting down an A5 and most other semi auto shotguns, there is a limit to how short they can be cut.
The bolt return spring and it's housing extends into the butt stock some distance and not a few people have unexpectedly found it with a hacksaw in an attempt to make a pistol grip stock out of it.
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Old 01-28-2010, 04:51 PM
ElToro ElToro is offline
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let me be clear, the few inches i was referring to was overall length, but still keepinging it 26+ inches overall. i would like to cut my stock down some more. my barell is still 18.5, i would NEVER do anything illegal until it was all approved.
thanks
Tim

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Old 01-28-2010, 04:59 PM
tallpaul tallpaul is offline
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nope the 200 fee continues on to the next individual...

as far as a trust one can set a trust up with a 20.00 program... there are pluses and minuses to a trust so ya may want to search about them and their pro's and cons... I was gonna set one up for another suppressor purchase but to bring the others into the trust would require more transfer tax's. It might be worth it if I had immediate family but for now I am not so sure.

I do want to get a .22 muzzle can this year. I have put it off long enough!
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Old 01-28-2010, 05:04 PM
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on a thread on calguns, they were discussing whether using teh available Trust software for a NFA trust was a good idea or not. i think i will err on the side of caution and have a real CA attorney doing it. and pay a bit more. this is not like a family trust that you put your house title and bank account assets into. if somebody screws this up you could go to real prison. plus once the tust is established, a one time fee, you can amortize the cost of each successive NFA fun gun down.
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Old 01-28-2010, 06:32 PM
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Unless the gun is an NFA weapon federal law requires a bbl. length of 18 inches and an OAL of 26 inches. With NFA though there is no such restriction.

The $200 tax will also apply to all subsequent transfers, except for a legal heir. But that person must still do the paperwork.

A shotgun or rifle that left the factory with a stock can not become an AOW, except with a very few exceptions. None of whicjh apply here. In shotguns that would be limited to those that left the factory without a stock or with ONLY a pistol grip. For an individual to build an AOW shotgun or any other type of AOW the tax stamp is $200. After that it can not have a stock added with out re-registering it and paying the $200. The $5 tax stamp only applies to transfers of AOW's.

El Toro, I didn't mean to imply that you wanted to do something illegal and I don't think Forester did either. We just don't want someone who reads this thread to misinterpret and do something illegal.

How short can the stock be cut; some have asked. I can't give you an exact length, but the A-5's I am most familar with; The "Lights" have the buttstock hollowed out. It should be possible to cut all of the stock off with the hollowed out area and still be safe. Of course that will leave a very short stock and unless you have very short arms you can forget shooting the gun from the shoulder. If you have a stock that is solid you could remove the stock and see how far the spring extends down into the stock then allow a few extra inches further back for making the cut. In no case will you have a true pistol brip configuration but you can cut the stock down shorter than mine.

As for using a trust, corp. or LLC for NFA purposes, it is a possibility and some go that route. It does do away with the fingerprint requirements and the CLEO signoff requirement. I would caution anyone who does this to consult an attorney who is familiar with NFA trusts. The reason is that ATF has challenged the validity of some of these trusts, even after sending back the stamped and approved paperwork. In other words they allowed the transfer but then questioned the validity of ownership. I would spend the time and money necessary to make sure that the trust was valid for NFA purposes and not just for ordinary assets. I am not trying to scare anyone away from going the trust rt, but not all trusts are created equal when it comes to NFA. There are in fact advantages to going the trust rt at least for some people and it is an option worth considering. For more information on NFA trusts go here:

NFA Gun Trust Lawyer Blog :: Published by Florida Gun Trust Lawyer David Goldman
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Old 01-28-2010, 09:04 PM
feralmerril feralmerril is offline
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On that pump I showed earlier on this thread that was stold from me and sawed off: The guy was a con on parole and/or probation and found with my gun in california. I went to court when he was run through the system. I dont think the proceedings lasted a minute or two. Yeah, he went home to the big house but there wasnt one word said about the illegal sawed off, as I said before I got up to protest or add info about all the guns I lost with that one. Judge shut me up, didnt want to hear from me! Now had I been found with that gun, no record at all, I bet they would have jacked the jail up, rolled me under, let it down, and throw away the key! Sure makes you respect the system!!
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Old 01-28-2010, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feralmerril View Post
......had I been found with that gun, no record at all, I bet they would have jacked the jail up, rolled me under, let it down, and throw away the key! Sure makes you respect the system!!
The big legal difference between you and him was that he was probably already a convicted felon. Registering a gun (as is required of NFA weapons) would be considered self incrimination. Criminals are not required to incriminate themselves. Since you are not a criminal you would not receive such consideration. A convicted felon could still be charged and convicted under the GCA of '68 for being a felon in possession of a firearm but hanging an NFA violation on him wouldn't be so easy. Unlike us law abiding folks where possession equals violation equals conviction equals hard time. Yeah, I agree it is a pitiful situation.

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Old 09-21-2010, 12:16 AM
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Bonnie & Clyde Whippet shotgun, Browning A-5.







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Old 09-22-2010, 06:19 AM
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Bonnie & Clyde Whippet shotgun, Browning A-5.







Well? have you shot it? What do you think? BTW, what length is that barrel?
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Old 09-22-2010, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
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Well? have you shot it? What do you think? BTW, what length is that barrel?
I'm to busy this week. I'll try to get out next week.
I will give you a range report when I do shoot it.

Barrel is 18.5".
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Last edited by whitecoyote; 09-22-2010 at 03:14 PM.
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