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02-08-2010, 09:47 PM
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Factory Letter
Is there any point in getting a factory letter on a Model 1917 with the normal markings of "United States Property" and U. S. Army Model 1917?
Do letters for the military 1917 normally say something like shipped with so many hundred or so many thousand to the U S Army?
This one is in great shape and if it went "over there" in either war, it was probably rear guard only.
Have any of these U S Property military models been documented as anything other than guns shipped to the government?
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02-09-2010, 12:52 AM
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I think is always real interesting to see where any of these older guns have been shipped, my very first factory letter from Parker Bros. led me to order a S&W letter for my REG MAG. They don't always awnser all your questions, but may lead you down another road that you never considered, plus what a few bucks for all the time Roy takes to research your gun anway! good luck I would letter a 1917 just to see if it went over the Atlantic or Pacific ocean, dale in Canada
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02-09-2010, 01:09 AM
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I would not letter a US 1917.
All you will learn is how many shipped on what day. I mean- is Dec 16th that much better than Dec 20th?
They all went to the same place........I'm tired, but Springfield Armory seems right.
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Lee Jarrett
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02-09-2010, 04:09 AM
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Lee is correct. I had the same question about the same gun. I called S&W around the beginning of Feb., and they actually put me through to Mr. Jinks.
He said that their records would only show when it was shipped to the Springfield Armory. He mentioned that it was made from 1917 to 1919, total of a hundred sixty something thousand made.
The holster to mine has the soldier's name and state of origin. I've thought of trying to research him through the war records somehow, but haven't looked into how to go about it yet.
It's a great gun. Do you have any pictures of yours?
Josh P
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02-09-2010, 08:32 AM
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Here is a useful website. You enter your serial number and it will give you the month and year of manufacture. A letter will not tell you a heck of a lot more.
U.S. Military Firearms Manufacture Dates
You may find that yours was made late 1918 or in 1919 which is a good indicator that it did not see trench duty in WWI.
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Last edited by Jack Flash; 02-09-2010 at 08:37 AM.
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02-09-2010, 08:56 AM
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I lettered one of my 1917 Army military guns, and the information provided was as the other posters stated. Personally, I would not be inclined to do it again, unless it was a Commercial (post-war) or some less common variation.
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Alan
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02-09-2010, 02:39 PM
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Thanks for the help. I'll pass on the letter for the 1917and get one on something else.
Thanks JackFlash, mine dates to 1918.
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02-09-2010, 05:49 PM
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I also have been thinking about the factory letter and this forum has convinced me to not to do it either.
I did run my serial number through the link provided by Jack Flash and this is what it said:
The year of manufacture for serial number 155617 is 1919.
January
U.S. government contract Smith & Wesson 1917 revolvers had serial numbers between 1 and 175100, they should have U.S. property markings on the bottom of the barrel and U.S. army marking on the bottom of the butt. After the war S&W 1917 revolvers were sold commercially and also to the Brazilian government. Brazilian contract revolvers have the Brazilian seal stamped on the side plate.
Now, what I am wondering is why my gun does not have the U.S. Property markings on the bottom of the barrel or on the butt.
On the butt, it just has the serial number. Under barrel it has a “B” and the serial number.
So what should I make from this information?
Thanks
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02-09-2010, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrd1976
Thanks JackFlash, mine dates to 1918.
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You're welcome. Did you notice what month?
It's a little odd how they put the year off by itself, and the month is down below, sort of hidden amonst some other text.
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02-09-2010, 08:39 PM
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jrd1976:
I have a Model 1917 that I did get a factory letter for. It was special in the fact that it was serial #45. The letter came back with an added bonus. My gun was in the very first shipment to the Springfield Armory.
I have it posted here on the forum at:
.45 Hand Ejector Model 1917 U.S. Army Revolver - Serial #45; Factory Lettered
So far I have yet to see a Model 1917 any earlier than mine.
jsmith
Last edited by jsmith; 02-09-2010 at 08:46 PM.
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02-09-2010, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saanich2010
I did run my serial number through the link provided by Jack Flash and this is what it said:
The year of manufacture for serial number 155617 is 1919.
January
...
Now, what I am wondering is why my gun does not have the U.S. Property markings on the bottom of the barrel or on the butt.
On the butt, it just has the serial number. Under barrel it has a “B” and the serial number.
So what should I make from this information?
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Does it have any marks on the frame? Such as a flaming circle (the "ordnance bomb") or anything that looks like an eagle's head and an "S number" ( the letter S followed by a one or two digit number).
I believe that the frame was made in Jan. 1918, but since the war had been over for a couple of months by then, there was no longer any urgency to get the guns assembled ASAP. The government even sold some of the guns and parts back to S&W after the war. I'm wondering if yours is one S&W assembled then sold on the civilian market. When they put it together (whenever that was) they serial numbered the barrel to the frame. I would sure love to see detailed pictures of this one!
Of course it's possible that someone removed the property markings from the barrel and the butt. (Some folks may have thought these property markings made the gun look stolen (?) who knows.)
You may want to rethink getting a letter. This may be a case where it would help solve this mystery.
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Last edited by Jack Flash; 02-09-2010 at 09:13 PM.
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02-09-2010, 09:21 PM
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In reference to getting a letter on a 1917, might I suggest:
For $10 more then the cost of the letter, you could become a member of the Smith & Wesson Collectors Association. Once a member you have access to the "Ask Roy for a ship date" area on this forum. So you can still find out the ship date and get membership to a great organization along with access to Roy Jinks, all for $10 more then getting a letter with the same information in it.
Sounds like a bargain to me...
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02-09-2010, 09:32 PM
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Jack Flash - here are a couple images of my pistol.
A unique story - I just inherited a safe in which this pistol has been locked inside. No one knew it was inside, I just found it when I had the safe opened. It seems from papers in the safe that it has been locked inside for over 60 years.
There are no marks on the pistol as you described. However, under the barrel it has the letter B and then the serial number.
Plus, when you open the cylinder, the frame has the number 1092 on it.
This is all I can find on it. Of course it has all the Patent information on top of the barrel.
Last edited by saanich2010; 02-09-2010 at 09:38 PM.
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02-09-2010, 10:20 PM
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That's not an M1917. It looks like a 3" round butt K-Frame to me. Someone else will be able to tell you what it is. Does it have any caliber markings on the barrel?
Model of 1917s are N-Frames with a square butt and 5.5" barrel.
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02-09-2010, 10:59 PM
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"On the butt, it just has the serial number."
Does the serial number read parallel to the barrel, or do you read it by holding the revolver with the barrel pointed skyward? If parallel, you have a commercial model 1917.
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02-09-2010, 11:24 PM
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OK, just so we clear up any confusion, jrd1976 started this thread about his Model 1917 and his thoughts about getting a Factory Letter.
Now, I did not mean to hijack this thread, but it seems that I have and there may be some confusion.
What I wrote was that I had been thinking about getting a letter but did not see the need. I did run the serial number and this was what I found:
The year of manufacture for serial number 155617 is 1919.
January
U.S. government contract Smith & Wesson 1917 revolvers had serial numbers between 1 and 175100, they should have U.S. property markings on the bottom of the barrel and U.S. army marking on the bottom of the butt. After the war S&W 1917 revolvers were sold commercially and also to the Brazilian government. Brazilian contract revolvers have the Brazilian seal stamped on the side plate.
Now, what I am wondering is why my gun does not have the U.S. Property markings on the bottom of the barrel or on the butt.
On the butt, it just has the serial number. Under barrel it has a “B” and the serial number.
So what should I make from this information?
Jack Flash asked about the markings and so I posted some images. I did not say or think that my pistol was Model 1917
So going back to what Jack Flash wrote: Does it have any marks on the frame? Such as a flaming circle (the "ordnance bomb") or anything that looks like an eagle's head and an "S number" ( the letter S followed by a one or two digit number).
I believe that the frame was made in Jan. 1918, but since the war had been over for a couple of months by then, there was no longer any urgency to get the guns assembled ASAP. The government even sold some of the guns and parts back to S&W after the war. I'm wondering if yours is one S&W assembled then sold on the civilian market. When they put it together (whenever that was) they serial numbered the barrel to the frame. I would sure love to see detailed pictures of this one!
Of course it's possible that someone removed the property markings from the barrel and the butt. (Some folks may have thought these property markings made the gun look stolen (?) who knows.)
You may want to rethink getting a letter. This may be a case where it would help solve this mystery.
Since my pistol does not have the markings and the serial number does run parallel to the barrel, what does this mean to me? Is it better to be a commercial pistol or a military pistol?
By the way, the images above are of my pistol, a Model 30, I believe.
Thanks
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02-10-2010, 12:48 AM
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Quote:
I did not say or think that my pistol was Model 1917
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I see now. The problem is, that website gives the month/year of manufacture for M1917s only.
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02-11-2010, 03:07 AM
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Thx for the website Jack. It shows mine as 1918, but I cant find anything about what month.
Mine is the one in the pics on pg. 1 of this thread. It's fairly well worn. Do any of you guys have a guess as to whether mine would have been used in the war, and if that holster looks original? It's an Al Furstnow brand holster.
JP
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02-11-2010, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saanich2010
Jack Flash - here are a couple images of my pistol.
A unique story - I just inherited a safe in which this pistol has been locked inside. No one knew it was inside, I just found it when I had the safe opened. It seems from papers in the safe that it has been locked inside for over 60 years.
There are no marks on the pistol as you described. However, under the barrel it has the letter B and then the serial number.
Plus, when you open the cylinder, the frame has the number 1092 on it.
This is all I can find on it. Of course it has all the Patent information on top of the barrel.
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Hi, this appears to be a .32 Hand Ejector (model 1903), which is an I or small frame in .32 S & W Long. It looks to have a 3 1/4" barrel (cylinder face to muzzle). If the SN is 155617, the approximate production year would be 1912. The stamped B indicates blue finish. The number 1092 on the frame is a factory code and not the official SN. Hope this is helpful.
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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220
Last edited by murphydog; 02-11-2010 at 05:52 AM.
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02-11-2010, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitar1580
Thx for the website Jack. It shows mine as 1918, but I cant find anything about what month.
Mine is the one in the pics on pg. 1 of this thread. It's fairly well worn. Do any of you guys have a guess as to whether mine would have been used in the war, and if that holster looks original? It's an Al Furstnow brand holster.
JP
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JP:
That is not a US military holster.
About showing the month:
I just picked a serial number out of the air and got this from that website:
Quote:
The year of manufacture for serial number 100555 is 1918.
September
{A bunch of other text ...}
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You'll note that the month is there, but it is separated from the year by a blank line and kind of buried in some other text.
WWI ended November 11, 1918. (As an aside, my grandfather, a doughboy who saw combat in the "Great War" told me that was the happiest day of his life.)
So if your month/year is October, 1918, it is unlikely it saw any combat. It may not have even left the US. Someone may know (or say they know ) how much time elapsed between when the gun left the factory and when it arrived in France, but I don't.
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02-12-2010, 03:28 AM
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Thanks Jack... and God bless your Grandfather.
I see where you mean now about the month. August 1918 for mine, so I guess it's hard to say if it saw action or not. Thx for the info., it's nice to narrow it down.
JP
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02-13-2010, 01:32 AM
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I agree with Lee, It's not necessary to letter a military shipped model of 1917 as all it will tell you is that the gun went to The Springfield Armory. Duh! If the fact that your gun went in the first shipment, great! , if that turns your clock. ( I would expect a low number 1917 to be in the first shipment. ) Now, having said that, I would run a 1917 through the Springfield Research Service to see if it happened to be listed in a particular unit's inventory of small arms. Should it show up as assigned to Eddie Rickenbacker's Hat-In_Ring Squadron, then you have hit pay dirt, which a factory letter would have never told you. And don't forget, some 1917s saw WW2 service and may have a track record of multiple ownerships of military units. Ed #15
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Tags
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commercial, ejector, hand ejector, jinks, k-frame, m1917, military, model 1903, model 1917, registered magnum, round butt, saa, springfield, united states property, wwi |
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