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  #1  
Old 02-20-2010, 10:22 PM
RDub RDub is offline
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Default .38 Special factory load duplication

Greetings
During the past several months I have been insatiably curious about the .38 Special 158gr Round Nose service load and duplicating that load. I have come across some inquires on forums as to what is an actual .38 Special factory duplication load for the 158gr RN service load that has been around forever but my curiosity wasn’t really satisfied.
I’ve undertaken a little research project in attempting to duplicate a .38 Special 158gr RN factory load, not only emphasizing velocity, but accuracy as well.
For decades now, I have always believed that 3.5 grs of Bullseye was the undisputed duplication load for 158gr lead bullets, so I wanted to determine if this is true also.

The only 158gr RN factory load I can find right now is the Rem-UMC load.



First thing I did was to get out my handy RCBS inertia bullet puller and examine three rounds and see what’s in there.

All three rounds had exactly 4.0 grains of a small flaked powder. I sprinkled some out on some paper and put some W231 along side for comparison.





So Rem is using a relatively fast powder here and small flakes for consistent metering.



Next I weighed the bullets and they were all 158.5 grains, and measured .358”.



Some might say that if we can’t use the exact components the factory is using then the whole exercise is ludicrous. Well, maybe true. But since the factory Round Nose bullets are not readily available at the retail level, we just have to use something close but different.
For this test I chose to use the old standby, the Lyman 358311 Round Nose cast bullet.



This batch is made from a 90/10% lead – tin mix and they weigh 159.something grains, and sized to .358”. They are lubed with Javalina bullet lube.

.

My initial test rounds were the following, just to give me a flavor of where I was with this bullet. These charges are just what my Little Dandy rotors threw out so I started there.
I guessed that I might get around 750 fps with the factory load so I loaded up some tester rounds using the SWAG method that I thought should get me about 750fps based on other work I have done.
I’m using a 4” S&W 686.


3.7 grs Bullseye
4.1 grs 700-X
4.8 grs UNIQUE
5.0 grs SR7625
5.1 grs Power Pistol
Federal cases and Remington primers.

Ok, so here is what happened at the range today.
25 yards
58°F
Oehler Mod 33 chronograph 10’ from muzzle



As you can see, the factory load (#6) was indeed right about there. Good extreme spread and accuracy not too bad.

3.7 grs of Bullseye (#9) was just about exact for duplicating this factory load. Accuracy is a little better than factory. If, I had loaded 3.5 grs it would have been shy of 760 fps.

4.1 grs of 700-X (#8) was a little much. I could drop down to 4.0grs or maybe 3.9grs. This powder also gave good accuracy, better than factory.

5.0 grs of SR7625 (11) was just about right on the money for what a 158gr +P load would give. I’ll try about 4.5 grs next time.

UNIQUE and Power Pistol (#10,12) was also past the mark a little bit.

The place I shot today needed a little brush clearing, which made my pulse not settle down the way I would've liked, so I think thats why the groups were a bit vertical.

So I’ll make some adjustments, shoot again and see what happens.

Last edited by RDub; 04-13-2018 at 08:46 PM.
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Old 02-20-2010, 11:34 PM
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I am very interested in your testing.

thanks for the info.

do you plan to test with 231 also?

I want to duplicate a service load also but was planning on using the 158 SWC slug for cleaner holes.

I like the load for bullseye too.

IIRC, the 158 Rem round nose factory is snappy and 760FPS is surprising to me. I thought it would have been in the high 800s.

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Old 02-21-2010, 12:42 AM
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Hi.
Yes.. In fact I was quite puzzled when I got to my shootin spot why I didn't load any 231.. Next group will definitely include 231.
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Old 02-21-2010, 05:17 AM
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A lot of good data in your post, thanks for taking the time to share it with us.

If you're trying to duplicate the 158gr UMC load why aren't you trying to find a powder that's close to what Remington is using?
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Old 02-21-2010, 07:37 PM
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Ok, went back and adjusted some charges and shot again. It was a touch warmer today.
Again five rounds each, except for the factory load which I shot six.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...g/02-21-10.jpg

So it looks like factory duplication loads with these powders and this bullet are;

3.7 grs Bullseye
3.9 grs 700-X
4.4 grs W-231
4.4 grs UNIQUE
4.6 grs SR7625
4.7 grs Power Pistol

I was kinda disappointed with the accuracy of UNIQUE.. It usually does better than that.

"If you're trying to duplicate the 158gr UMC load why aren't you trying to find a powder that's close to what Remington is using?"

Other than AA#2, which I don't have any at the moment, which ones would you suggest?

Anyway, guess thats it for now.
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Old 02-21-2010, 08:15 PM
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Just for info here.
The Lyman 44th edition loading manual lists 3.5 Bullseye with the Lyman 358311 #2 Alloy as a factory duplication load.
826fps out of a S&W Mdl 14.
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Old 02-21-2010, 08:34 PM
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Wow, the W231 load was very accurate. One thing though, all the charge weights you listed in your post don't match the charge weights you wrote on the target you linked to. I know that the differences are small but I'm just wondering which numbers are correct? I'm especially curious about the W231 charge since the ammo it produced was so accurate. My normal charge is 4.0gr W231 under a 158gr LSWC bullet.

Again, thanks for posting the data from your work. I know how much time it takes to load the ammo and run the tests...
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Old 02-21-2010, 08:47 PM
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Interesting data. Thanks for posting.
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Old 02-21-2010, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dg101win View Post
Just for info here.
The Lyman 44th edition loading manual lists 3.5 Bullseye with the Lyman 358311 #2 Alloy as a factory duplication load.
826fps out of a S&W Mdl 14.
Hi
Yep, I have that manual also and that's one of the reasons I always thought 3.5grs of Bullseye was a factory dup load. In this case it took 3.7 grs to match what Rem was loading.

ArchAngel; The loads I have posted are an interpolation from the loads on the target pic. If I were to load another trial, I would load what I listed. Most of the velocities I got today were just a tad over the 770 fps that the Rem factory load produced. So, if I dropped a tenth of a grain, or so, the velocities should be right on the money at about 770 fps.
Make sense?
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Old 02-21-2010, 10:58 PM
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Very informative, thanks for posting this.
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Old 02-21-2010, 11:07 PM
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Nice info, I appreciate your labor and effort. Thanks for sharing.
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Old 02-22-2010, 12:22 AM
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I duplicated the 158 gr. LRN factory ballistics using American Select, HS-700x, WST and Bullseye. I cannot access the data now but if memory serves me correctly is was about 3.5 gr. of American Select and very similar weights for the other powders.
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Old 02-22-2010, 12:25 PM
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Have you ever thought about using the Speer 158gr. LRN bullet? I like them for 100yd shooting out of my .38s. I was using 4.0 grains of 231 which is probably lighter than factory but it was accurate. I'm switching to Bullseye and haven't worked up any loads with it yet for this bullet.
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Old 02-26-2010, 06:00 PM
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Pardon my questions I don't reload YET. What type of crimp did you use and what die?
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Old 02-26-2010, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
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Pardon my questions I don't reload YET. What type of crimp did you use and what die?
I use RCBS dies and the crimp is a standard roll crimp, not real heavy, just firm.
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Old 02-27-2010, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
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I use RCBS dies and the crimp is a standard roll crimp, not real heavy, just firm.
Do you think a Lee Factory Crimp Die would work as well?
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Old 02-27-2010, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RDub View Post
ArchAngel; The loads I have posted are an interpolation from the loads on the target pic. If I were to load another trial, I would load what I listed. Most of the velocities I got today were just a tad over the 770 fps that the Rem factory load produced. So, if I dropped a tenth of a grain, or so, the velocities should be right on the money at about 770 fps.
Make sense?
Yes, makes perfect sense, thanks for the clarification...
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Old 02-28-2010, 02:31 AM
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Quote:
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Do you think a Lee Factory Crimp Die would work as well?
Yes it would. You could try both ways and see which you prefer.
With the Lee it's just an additional step, but with a standard seating die seating and crimping is done at the same time.
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Old 02-28-2010, 09:47 PM
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I found Bullseye and 3.7 was the factory duplication loading. I read this many many years ago. Out of a 2 inch Smith I got about 720 with 3.8 grains of bullseye and the 158. I found that 231 gives better velocity. I clocked out 231 and 4.3 with a 158 in a 2 inch right at 760. 231 and 4.3 is a standard velocity round and not +P. Winchester claimed that 4.5 grains of 231 was standard but I think 4.4 is max standard and close to 17000 psi at about 16700 to 16800. I think 4.5 is slightly over at 17200.
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Old 05-02-2010, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RDub View Post
Ok, went back and adjusted some charges and shot again. It was a touch warmer today.
Again five rounds each, except for the factory load which I shot six.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...g/02-21-10.jpg

So it looks like factory duplication loads with these powders and this bullet are;

4.4 grs W-231

Going to rejuvenate this thread. I loaded 4.4 231 behind some old laser cast 158 SWC I have had for some time. I plan to shoot them out of my new to me Model 15-5. I loaded 50 and will try from various distances out to 25 yds. maybe 50.

thanks again
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Old 05-03-2010, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
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Going to rejuvenate this thread. I loaded 4.4 231 behind some old laser cast 158 SWC I have had for some time. I plan to shoot them out of my new to me Model 15-5. I loaded 50 and will try from various distances out to 25 yds. maybe 50.

thanks again
Excellent, I'm very interested. I'm loading 4.2 grains of HP-38 behind a 158 grain SWC.
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Old 05-03-2010, 07:20 PM
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I agree, very informative. Thanks for taking the time to post and share with us.
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Old 05-03-2010, 10:49 PM
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I had some 150gr JHCs that I loaded with 4.4 gr of 231. Comfortable out of my M-36. Nothing exotic, but fun to shoot.
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Old 05-05-2010, 10:21 PM
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these are waiting to be shot. 4.4 231 158swc

I will have to sight in my 15-5, so hopefully its close so I can focus on accuracy instead of sighting in.

either friday or saturday morning...hopefully!



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Old 05-05-2010, 11:05 PM
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It'll probably work fine, but you are .4 gr over the max recommended load in Lyman #49 for a 158 gr. cast SWC.

Also, don't even worry about sighting in until you've got a load that groups well. At this point, that's all you're looking for.

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Old 05-14-2010, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
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It'll probably work fine, but you are .4 gr over the max recommended load in Lyman #49 for a 158 gr. cast SWC.

Also, don't even worry about sighting in until you've got a load that groups well. At this point, that's all you're looking for.
CP, thanks for the info.

I am looking to duplicate a factory load since I have to shoot new licensed manufactured ammo in a distinguished match. I dont have the $$$ to practice with new ammo. I want my reloads to match factory specs and I will zero my gun with that.

my old Lyman #46 says the following

158 lead, *4.9 grains 231 (MAX) 906 FPS 16,800 CUP
*this was marked potenially most accurate load

158 lead, ++(+P) 4.5 grains Bullseye (MAX) 931 FPS 18,200 CUP
++this was marked factory velocity duplication load

that was out of a 4" universal receiver

I have my distinguished 6" revovler now, so I will try it on 6"...if I ever get the time! I was going to try this afternoon and a heavy rain storm hit.

I need to invest in a nice low buck chrony.
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Old 05-22-2010, 10:23 PM
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I finally tested my rounds (4.4 of 231 behind an old Laser Cast 158 LSWC)

firing these rounds had a more definite snap of recoil compared to a new box of MagTech 158 Lead RN that someone gave me. I recall firing factory new Remington 158 lead RN and it I think the Remmy's had more snap than my 4.4 of 231.

I would get a decent group of 3 shots then a flyer to the left or right. I think it was my follow though from a braced shooting position at 25 yds and the front sight was not clear. I did not sandbag.

I could not achieve decent accuracy and I am not blaming the rounds. I was in a hurry to sight in other guns for a practice match and did not give these rounds the attention they deserved. I also could not get a clear front sight. the sun was behind me and I was shooting in the shade but my focus was on other guns.

I tried them in my new to me 15-5 and 14-5 and the trigger pull on both did not lend themselves to accuracy compared to my worn out smooth pulling M65.

I plan to load again and I had the similiar accuracy with the MagTec rounds so it was me and not the rounds or load.

I fired a box of Mag Tech using my M65 and shot horribly in a practice duty match a few days ago. I smoked my front serrated ramped sight and the front sight blended with the black B27 target and it being a cloudy day....I had trouble seeing my front sight.

my shots drifted high, left or right. I shot my PPC gun and the patridge sight was much easier to see in cloudy skys. I should have rubbed the soot off my M65 front sight so to have a clearer view of my front sight. I can recall twisting the gun looking for my front sight and it was there the entire time. urgggggggh! my brain told me not to squeeze, and then had to make up time by shooting sloppy.

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Old 05-24-2010, 12:19 PM
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I load a 158 gr cast RNFP from Stonewall, and the load in the (OLD) Lyman cast bullet handbook indicates 4.9 gr. 231 was most accurate load. I chronographed it in my 6" 686 and it was a very consistent 906 fps, with a SD of 17.97 and shot into 2" at 25 yards from a sandbag rest.
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Old 05-24-2010, 04:07 PM
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Thanks to the OP and others who have contributed to this thread. Very informative.

I like the .38 Special very well. Used to dwell on .44 Mag... The 38 is fun and historic. And useful.

Regards,

Dyson
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Old 07-14-2010, 05:30 PM
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Anyone with input as to ideal seating/crimping for target loads.

I'm using the Laser Cast/Oregon Trail 158 SWC bullets (look like a Kieth style). This is for the NRA Distingush Revolver (DR) matches.

Seems 3.5 to 3.6 grs of Bullseye is what many are using to push a 158 LSWC. My first try at making a DR load was not that good. I used 3.0 gr of BE and seated and rolled crimped at the crimping grove (traditional location). I read in another thread a shooter seat to the first band and uses no crimp.

Thoughts?
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Old 07-14-2010, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mososodbob View Post
Anyone with input as to ideal seating/crimping for target loads.

I'm using the Laser Cast/Oregon Trail 158 SWC bullets (look like a Kieth style). This is for the NRA Distingush Revolver (DR) matches.

Seems 3.5 to 3.6 grs of Bullseye is what many are using to push a 158 LSWC. My first try at making a DR load was not that good. I used 3.0 gr of BE and seated and rolled crimped at the crimping grove (traditional location). I read in another thread a shooter seat to the first band and uses no crimp.

Thoughts?
can you define "was not that good"?

You will need some crimp to close any belling of the case mouth. Then will you lose any consistency by not having some type of uniform crimp.

BE is a faster burning powder so heavy slug crimp is not necessary as with slow burning powders.

Also, is this just for practice? doesnt NRA DR require the use of factory manufactured ammo?
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Old 08-03-2010, 07:20 PM
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The NRA changed the rule to allow any "safe" loads. So what would be good? I'd like to use Winchester Super Target.
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Old 08-03-2010, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
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can you define "was not that good"?

You will need some crimp to close any belling of the case mouth. Then will you lose any consistency by not having some type of uniform crimp.

BE is a faster burning powder so heavy slug crimp is not necessary as with slow burning powders.

Also, is this just for practice? doesnt NRA DR require the use of factory manufactured ammo?
Hi,

Not good means it will not hold nine ring at 25 yds. This is with my 686 and Mod 15. Same guns with 148 HBWC loads will shoot one ragged hole inside the 10/X. When it won't group at 25, I didn't even brother shooting at 50. "good enough" is when it shoots 9's and Ten's at 50.

I went with 3.0 gr BE based on a recommendation of a cowboy action shooter for his .38 SPLs. We have a different accuracy standard for BE.

NRA changed ammo rule last year to any safe ammo...158 SWC or RN.

Bob
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Old 08-03-2010, 09:29 PM
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I loaded 3.1 of Bullseye behind a 158SWC and those puppys were accurate out of my 4" 65 at 25 yds (no barricade).

I want to back down just a tad and may try 2.9 or 3.0 of BE.
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Old 08-03-2010, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davekp View Post
The NRA changed the rule to allow any "safe" loads. So what would be good? I'd like to use Winchester Super Target.
davekp...do you have a link to that rule change on ammo?

I am unaware of any ammo change.
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Old 08-04-2010, 07:11 AM
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davekp...do you have a link to that rule change on ammo?

I am unaware of any ammo change.
Rule 3.1.4(e) in the NRA rule book, revised Jan 2010. Go to the NRA website.
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Old 08-04-2010, 10:12 AM
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Reloaded ammo is allowed for all guns/classes EXCEPT Distinguished. That still requires factory ammo. See this:

http://www.nrahq.org/compete/rules/rul_police_10.pdf
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Old 08-04-2010, 10:39 AM
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Reloaded ammo is allowed for all guns/classes EXCEPT Distinguished. That still requires factory ammo. See this:

http://www.nrahq.org/compete/rules/rul_police_10.pdf
thanks for the link.
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Old 08-04-2010, 12:44 PM
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Mike,

Check your PMs.
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Old 08-04-2010, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Dobbs View Post
Reloaded ammo is allowed for all guns/classes EXCEPT Distinguished. That still requires factory ammo. See this:

http://www.nrahq.org/compete/rules/rul_police_10.pdf
I was thinking the civilian DR program, as fired at the nationals at Camp Perry (which allows reloads), not the Police DR.
Confusing because both are called Distinguished Revolver.
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Old 08-05-2010, 12:38 AM
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Copy that, brother!
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Old 01-17-2013, 05:32 PM
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3.7 Bullseye gave me great accuracy in my 6" magnums with 38 brass and a lead 158gr bullet. I never bothered with how fast it was going. For a +P of 890fps, 4.0grs of RedDot was most accurate at POA.

Winchester data has a 158 gr Lswc:
231, 4.7grs ........... 860 @ 17,100 psi +P

which was the 2nd most accurate in my two 6" magnums,
a mod 19 and 686.

Unique gets is best burn/accuracy at the higher end of 38 loads to the +P loads. I have NEVER found a GOOD light target load with this powder in a 6 or 2" 38 spl or magnum, yet....that faster burning powders could shoot in half the size.
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Old 01-17-2013, 11:50 PM
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It goes back more than a few yrs. (mid70's?) when Mike V. (writer for Guns and Ammo, at the time) listed 4.5grs. of 231 and 158 gr lead bullets as one of his favorite loads. Also stated that it was only listed in one of his resource books. Tryed it and have stayed with it, don't see any reason to change. Old habits die hard!
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Old 01-18-2013, 01:54 AM
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This is Awsome bit of info and something that i think will be getting wrote down for me in my books, i hope this gets added to the Reloading sticky list for reloading
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Old 01-18-2013, 02:42 AM
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I started loading 38Spl last year.

A bit of research, some old and new manuals and I came up with 4.5g W231/HP38 under a 160g 358159 w/o the gas check.

Totally satisfied.

I use these in an old 36ND and a 649-2.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:53 AM
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Another 2 and a half year old thread brought back from the Abyss!
Ed, why not start a new thread instead of bringing back such old threads?
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  #47  
Old 01-18-2013, 07:22 AM
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Another 2 and a half year old thread brought back from the Abyss!
Ed, why not start a new thread instead of bringing back such old threads?
He probably got yelled at (if it was by me - sorry, bad day!) for not researching old threads before asking questions

I find the term "factory load" intriguing. According to my 1970 Lyman (45th ed.) the preamble describes it thus:

FACTORY DUPLICATION LOAD: Where possible, we have listed the load which duplicated factory velocity for the bullet weight tested. It should not be assumed that this weight duplicates factory pressure....

In the .38 Special section:
...Bullet No. 358311 duplicates the factory 158 grain service bullet very closely.

In the data tables:
...Factory Duplication Load:
Bullseye Powder, 3.5 grains, 826 f.p.s.

In the above case, the gun used was a S&W M14 with a 6" barrel.
The primers were Remington 1-1/2 and the cases also Remington.
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Old 01-18-2013, 11:58 AM
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If you really think about it, I doubt there is any question that has not been asked or discussed about anything on the internet no matter what forum.

There For the balcony is now closed.

"Oh , one more thing", What about +P??
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Old 03-30-2013, 06:55 PM
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Since I've been looking for months for good load info on the 158 gr bullet in the .38 special, I'm thankful this thread is brought back to life.

Good information NEVER gets old.

THANKS!!

Jim Chapman

Michigan
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  #50  
Old 04-15-2013, 09:25 PM
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i hope somebody is still reviewing this thread/forum. . . i'm not always looking around BUT, can someone help me; i want to load copper plated 125 gr .38spl and wanted to use BULLSEYE Powder. I can not find data .. any suggestions?. . . thanks, joe
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