How far are you willing to go under computer control?

What’s does the term X-by-wire mean to me? As I type this I am only sending a signal to the computer which decides my intention. Consider the manual typewriter, if I hit the “G” key a letter g will appear on the paper by mechanical link, uppercase if I am holding down the shift key. It won’t type by its self and unless broken it always types when the key is pushed.
Now I am dependent upon the computer, a bunch of software, and a printer to type a letter. So what we have now is type by wire.
I have been reminded in previous posts about the Toyota problem, that Fly-by-Wire is common. Some modern aircraft can be flown only by wire; that is with control inputs going through the computer. These aircraft systems have multiple backups which raise them far above the level of sophistication of a car and also far above the cost for an automotive system.

Shoot-by-wire smallarms): Both rifle and pistol firing systems have been produced with electronic trigger systems, in theory the “trigger” could be anywhere you want and be tuned to any pull or other specification you like. The gun itself could look much different and some free pistols are strange looking indeed.
I think most of us would not accept replacement of the reliability of the current mechanical system with electronic wizardry for anything except a Free Pistol.

So why is it that we have bought into drive-by-wire systems in mass produced automobiles? For many actions, you are only signaling your desire to the computer when you press the start button, hit the brakes, push on the accelerator, etc. The engine, transmission, and braking system are under various levels of direct control by the computer; your control is very indirect.
I have experienced an “inappropriate braking error” when a circuit failure in the stability control system caused the computer to apply the brakes without warning while traveling down the highway and it’s a very shaky feeling
There is absolutely no mechanical reason why a drive-by-wire engine control system cannot run away. Many software limitations yes, but no mechanical reason. The overrides are software overrides, not mechanical.
In order to achieve Federal Mandates for clean air and mileage, computer control of the engine/drive train is necessary. Mandates for traction and stability require computer braking control. This is not a Toyota problem, it’s an industry wide problem brought about by mandates from Congress.

So we are mandated into a control system that puts me at least out of my comfort zone. I doubt if Toyota has a real problem with their systems. The plaintiff bar however sees Toyota as having very deep pockets. So every accident unexplained except for driver error, becomes Toyota’s expensive lawsuit. H. Waxman and those similarly disposed will aid the trial lawyers in this attempt to raid the Toyota Corporate Treasury.

So were does this leave us? I admit to some probably unfounded concern, but both my car and pick-up have manual transmissions with a real clutch.
How does this all set with you?

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

As a retired automotive mechanic I always had a distrust of the whole drive by wire systems. I'll take a mechanical device over a computer and wireing any day when it comes to basic control over your vehicle.

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Stay safe people!

Most buyers have no clue if its drive by wire, drive by cable, or drive by carrier pigeon.
Me... I like stuff I can fix with bailing wire, a hammer, and some chewing gum.


Jim

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Big bullets leave big holes

I'm not 100% sure Toyota's problem is a "drive by wire" problem. As far as I know it, it's a "mechanical" problem with their accelerator pedal mechanisms.

My Shelby is "drive by wire". If there's a problem (like a "stuck" accelerator pedal), i'll just simply shift it into neutral.

People really need to know how to drive and handle their cars.
There were times I had to shut the engine down at 60mph in order to hear a strange noise. The look I usually get from my passengers are priceless.

I believe all the Airbus aircraft that are built in the EU are controled by computer, no torque tubes or old style cables, I'm glad I dont have to fly anymore. Jeff

Computer controls are moving in throughout industry. I work in a power plant where our oldest two units were operated by pneumatic control -- you varied air pressure in the control room to adjust the controls out in the plant. Switches closed in breakers to start pumps and fans. The newest two units were electronic control -- you varied voltage to make adjustments in the plant. At times, things ran real ragged! Boiler pressures, temps and water levels would swing. It was the old adage -- hours of boredom interspersed with moments of shear terror!

With the new DCS controls (computer controls) the units run so much smoother! I laugh at the new control room operators who get worried about a 25 psi pressure swing -- we used to have to deal with 100 to 150 psi swings at times! The multiple boiler fans and boiler feed pumps go in and come out soooo much smoother!

But, yes it is spooky to take away my 15' long control board and give me back 10 or 12 computer screens to run the unit with. We have had our hic-ups which sure makes me wonder about airplanes!

It was strange, too with my Jeep -- installed a 5.7 hemi in place of the 4.0 six cylinder. Had to replace the throttle cable with a piece of wire! No way to blip the throttle from under the hood when your working on it!

I saw on TV that woman that testified that her toyota went well over a 100 mph for somthing like 6 miles to that hearing, well it was found out she sold the car without fixing it, the people she sold it to havent fixed anything and are driveing it!!! I have a hard time swallowing these storys!

I doubt I will ever buy a "drive by wire" car or truck. I do not trust what are called "Engineers" these days that are designing these systems.

Mechanical systems aren't as elegant as the newest wizzbang electronic gizmo, but we have excellent pattern failure knowledge of all the common automotive mechanical systems. It will be decades before we have this level of understanding of fly-by-wire systems.

Some times what you don't know can hurt you.

Not sure how technical you want to get on this subject, but my experience with USAF test and evaluation gives me concern about the inclusion of drive by wire in all cars.
Why? Substandard engineering and programming. The first USAF F 16 almost crashed on the first flight because the programming did not match the reality of human reflexes. It was fixed, but only after nearly killing a pilot. The technology was new in airplanes then.

A system should never have a possible failure mode as a valid signal. For example, a ground fault or broken wire should always register as a fault and set a code. According to a professor at SIU, Toyota engine control allows a ground signal to be a valid accelerator code for max, so a short equals full throttle and does not set a fault code. If he is right, this is an unacceptable design error, extremely difficult to detect in a production unit. I'm concerned that the lessons learned in military aviation and NASA are not being used in commercial products because of the cost and extensive testing requirements.

Thanks to all who replied!
A couple of things come to mind;
First, I do not think that you can buy a new car or one less than 10 years old that is not mostly drive-by-wire.
Second; I agree many mechanical control circuits simply either won’t work or at least won’t work very well. Since this is the case if you want the mileage and drivability you get the electronics. An automotive example is fuel injection; the 60’s mechanical designs simply did not work well. Let me tell you about the 65 Corvette FI, no, that painful memory is best forgotten.
Third; The lady who testified before congress attributes the eventual slowing of her car to Devine Intervention. I am skeptical! This would imply that the computer code fault fixed itself and left no record. The engineer’s maxim that I learned was; Believe in miracles, be thankful for miracles, but do not rely on miracles.
As for the SIU guy, he works and testifies for the independent testing organization that works for the trial lawyers. In order to achieve the results the lawyers want he had to alter the sensor codes. What the lawyers want to convince people is that run away acceleration can happen without leaving a record from the throttle position sensor.

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

I stopped buying new cars decades ago. A properly maintained 30 year old vehicle is every bit as reliable (and probably more so) than anything rolling off the showroom floors today.

As long as I can still get fuel for the used vehicles I buy and drive, I will resist the electronic monstrosities that are being forced on us.

Blue tooth, GPS, keeless entry and starting, auto-braking, anti-skid traction control, anti-lock brakes, video cams, airbags stuffed in every corner, and more gadgets than a geek can shake a stick at.

How about something that starts when it should, goes when you push the right pedal, stops when you push the left pedal, and turns in the direction the steering wheel turns. Combine that with a driver that knows how to drive the machine, and you got a winner.

You want better fuel mileage? Get rid of the danged oxygenated fuels, automatic 12% increase in EVERYONES fuel mileage! Funny how there were several gasoline cars in the mid 90's that got over 50mpg, but none even approach that figure now.