Hello S&W forum. I just joined. Today at a gun show I bought a neat though unusual Schofield. (I know very little about these guns, so its possible that it is more usual than I think.) The gun was owned by a police chief in Maine for many years, then kept for some time by the family. The antique dealer from whom I purchased it bought it at an antique (not specifically gun) auction in Maine. The gun is a first model 3 digit sn 18X with all matching numbers including grips which are original. The US inspector marks are there (The David Lyle 'L', and 'P' markings in 2 places. Here is the strange stuff. There is no US on butt, and grips are checkered Looks professional. Inlaid in grips are two MOP poker suits, the heart and diamond. The front sight, which looks original (its the original barrel length) is german silver. The finish is original, about 40% bright Blue. The bore is well used but bright. There is little rust and only minor pitting. What have I got here? Is this what first model civilians look like? Any thoughts appreciated by those who know these guns.
Thanks, Johnny

Can't answer your questions, but welcome to the forum. Somebody will be along soon with more info than you can imagine.

Sure would like to see some pictures of that gun when you find the time.

Pictures would be needed to ascertain just exactly what is or is not original. Please see FAQ's about posting pictures, or see below.
From bdGreen

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This message has been edited. Last edited by: bdGreen, 16 May 2008 09:40 AM

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Mr. Yuma, What you have is a first model US Schofield that has had the usual aftermarket "enhancements" often seen on these guns after they were sold as surplus to gun dealers. As you say, the grips could be original and the checkering added later. if so, the back side of the right grip panel will have the serial number of the gun stamped theron. The gun left S&W with the US stamp. It has been removed by a later owner, or perhaps by the dealer that sold the gun after buying it from the Gov't.. There are no known commercial sales of first model Schofields, by the factory, in the S&W records. The practice of removing US stamps from former US arms was common 100+ years ago, as law enforcement officials often seized firearms with US stamps, if found in the possesion of civilians, on the theory they were stolen, leaving the owner to prove otherwise. The front sight is a replacement. Since you bought it at an estate auction that was not a gun auction, you probably got a very good deal on the gun. Enjoy! Ed.

Schofield 5 pictures attached to this upload click the link to see them!

Thanks,

Johnny Yuma

Attached Images

	P1010004.jpg (51.2 KB, 192 views)
	P1010005.jpg (51.2 KB, 197 views)
	P1010006.jpg (36.0 KB, 188 views)
	P1010007.jpg (45.8 KB, 174 views)
	P1010008.jpg (69.6 KB, 169 views)

Thanks for the responses. As I said, I know very little about S&W. I will take it as likely that this is a US gun with some old modifications; (grips, front sight, US removed) The right grip is numbered to the gun, and it has the full complement of 'P' and 'L' stamps. I should say that the german silver front sight is very original looking, and the place where the US would be does not look shaved or filed. One thing that I thought about, is that with Colt SAA US contract guns, there were a lot of contemporary civilian guns that wound up with inspector stampings either from over-run or rejected parts. (I know S&W had far fewer rejected parts than Colt.) Several reference sources I looked at gave a number of 35 civilian first issue Schofields. Its a cool old gun that has a real old west feel to it (though it wound up in deepest Maine)

Johnny, yes, the SCSW and other references estimate 35 civilian guns were shipped, however factory records do not seem to support this, according to Roy Jinks, so we may never know. Usually when an inspector rejected a gun it was returned to the assembly line and whatever the defect was, it was corrected, and the gun passed inspection. I think your gun has lots of 'character' with the personalized grips done by a former owner, etc. Nice find. Ed.

Really neat gun. I love those grips.

-S

I have a First Model Schofield that was tested by the Texas Department of Public Safety crime lab with an acid etching test with the determination that there was no US mark on the butt. In the early days of S&W collecting it was considered a possible First Model civilian. (However, it does have the L and P marks). It also has a light pencil marking inside the grips (which are very well made replacements) "Ben Thompson Austin 1875" The writing of both the name and city have been compared favorably with contemporary records and it was not bought with a Ben Thompson history. In the last 20 years I have become convinced as Ed mentions that there are no "civilian" First Model Schofields. Partly this is from the observation from several examples in Excellent condition with US stamps that are extremely lightly struck. My example has some abrasion on the butt as does the photos appear to have in this thread and I don't believe it takes much on some examples to even pass the DPS test. If they were intentionally defaced, I would suspect it was done early on when the guns were in active military use (like might have been the case with Ben Thompson). Maybe they even started the story back then that there were some "non-military" sales to justify their having a Schofield in their possession without fuss from the Calvary. Further, Charlie Pate wrote a couple of articles a number of years ago detailing the inspection process for the Schofield based on existing records detailing the number of parts produced, the number accepted and the number rejected by the inspector for various parts (frames, barrels etc). Based on the article, it didn't look to me that there were enough parts available to make 35 beyond the 3000 accepted by the Government. The only loose end to me is correspondence with Col Schofield when he was in Fort Sill and Fort Concho in late 1874, early 1875 where he was sent (as I recall from memory) four examples for evaluation a couple months prior to the inspection of the production lot. I am not aware of any primary research into these samples; as to how they may have been marked and/or accounted for in the Government contract. Through a number of articles, Charlie Pate has published a lot of primary research on the Schofield but I feel this may still be an area for a little new insight and would welcome further discussion.

Thank you for the responses. What you say about the gun being a standard military Schofield with US removed makes sense. I am very happy with it in any case. (and I love those grips.) I had a 1880's vintage Western holster rig that fit it perfectly. I put it together with my other Schofield (second type) which was reworked and has Wells Fargo Markings, into a mid-1880's Western grouping for my avatar. I think Ive just about figured out how to post pictures. This is Fun! Im going to try to download a few shots of some close-ups of the (German Silver?) front sight. The number inside right grip, and a few other particulars. Johnny.

P1010011.jpg

P1010001.jpg

P1010010.jpg

P1010015.jpg

I'm afraid I have nothing of value to add, other than I love that gun, the grips are fantastically cool, and your old west display is a joy to behold.

Thanks for posting.

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