Fox news just had a segment with pros and con of the goverments plans of thinning out the wild horse herds here in the west. I have been following this before it was news. I have mixed and not real firm opinions on it yet. I live near some areas where they are and they can be seen if you know where to go. They are magnifcent to watch. People can swing either way depending on how good of a talker is promoteing a view. A good movie was made many years ago with marlyn monroe and clark gable about it, "The misfit,s". I have had some schooling in conservation and worked in the field many years ago. Sometimes the goverment pencil necks manage well and many times I think they dont.
What do you guys think about this one?

Saw a show on PBS about this years back, they thinned the herd but none were destroyed. All were herded into huge holding pens then loaded out and sold to horse people that wanted them for breeding to improve their herds.

Seemed to me like a win--win situation to me. If they plan on just destroying them that's a different matter entirely.

Steve

Problem is that in my area horses are a problem due to the economy and cost of horse upkeep. Will probably be a lot tougher to find homes for them.

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TOMBECK

..and PBS swallowed that line of BS, did they? Let's see:

1) Did the show mention how many die from stress after being herded by helicopters?

2) Did PBS mention that at times, time limits are set for adoption to take place.

3) Did they mention what happens to the horses that are not adopted? (Hint: they eat horesemeat and make glue in China)

4) Did they mention that the BLM allows NO public debate on the matter?

5) Did they point out that in several places where the round ups occur, the horses (and around here the mules) NEVER return?

Example: there has always been a bunch of wild horses tha thang out at a place called Cold Creek. There is a stream that runs down off the mountains into two or three pools so there is plenty of water. the BLM claimed that they had to go because "the water supply could not be guaranteed". No ****, Sherlock, we live in a DESERT. There is never a guarantee of water, even for people.

Sooo, the BLM said we will have a public meeting to allay the fears of the locals. "Meeting" to me implies a two way dialogue. Not with the BLM, who had LEOs there to eject anybody who had the nerve to try and ask questions.

I am unsure of the whole story with wild horses and the BLM. Yes, they DO need some management, but what we see more often is their extermination as a species across chunks of the West. Maybe it is pressure from ranchers, maybe from municipalities who want NO horse vs vehicle wrecks. Draw you own conclusions.

^ What he said. A few weeks ago they ran a herd to death. They actually have a very effective feed through birth control that they choose NOT to use. Last year the BLM planned to euthanize 10,000 horses at a cost of $100,000 but the general outrage put a stop to that. I am a Farrier by trade and I train horses, so I love them above all else and I hate to them abused. I would rather see them humanely euthanized for slaughter than starved to death. Just MHO.

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Dyin ain't much of a livin

We don’t have the large population of wild horses running free like you do. What we have seen here since the economic down turn are horses being turned loose on public and private land. These are not wild horses but horses owned by people who can no longer afford to feed or care for them. The rule is that livestock may roam "open range" in Texas.

I am personally against the wholesale slaughter of horses but understand that there are reasons for and against it.

“Will probably be a lot tougher to find homes for them.”
That seems to be the case; the feds have been unable to find homes for the horses rounded up in previous attempts. The “Save the Wild Horses” groups have been actively hunting homes for them as well.
We live in a horse owner’s community and Save the WH posters were up at the community barn, but with no takers.
It’s a sad situation of course, but much like the Grand Canyon Donkeys, wild horses are pretty destructive of the environment. We have feral pigs here, but the universe of feral pig lovers is a very small one and so the pigs get little sympathy.

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

Just some scattered thoughts here. I understand many were killed for glue durring world war two. I remember a mink farm back home in the 40s and 50s that killed many for food. There was a constant turnover of penned horses there. Some goverment "experts" argue that they were never really native to this country. I am not fully convinced that the spaniards were the first to bring them over. I dont belive everything teachers try to tell me as fact! Even so, that is the same type thinking when they didnt put out forest fires that about burned down yellowstone years ago because it started by lighting. Now if a man caused it, they would have been hot on it! Us white eyes werent here 600 years ago either, maybe we ought to thin some of us out?
I ride the quad sometimes in wild horse country to the west of us. Man, can those things poop! Usualy I see about 3/4 of a bushel of, un, scat in one spot!
When I first came west years ago you could ride around death valley and always see hundreds of wild burros that got away from the old miners. The goverment and also the navy killed almost all of them off. I have been there a few times since and saw none! I hope that doesnt happen here! These bad times as someone else said, means they wouldnt be able to sell many. A close friend of mine runs sort of a horse motel for people traveling through. He said he has heard of storys where people have took their horse for a ride, come back to find a stray horse in their trailer! Doesnt sound good!

These aren't wild animals, they are feral animals descended from domesticated stock. If you want to see a wild equine, go look at a zebra.

The difference is these feral horses can be trained. The fight or flight reaction isn't as strong in them as a true wild animal, but it is stronger than what you have in your normal domesticated horse.

Just an example: I had a Mustang captured by the BLM in NV. She was rather small (14 hands) but sweet and intelligent. She broke easy and rode well.

My BIL wanted her for his kids to ride. Long story short, BIL didn't know how to keep fences mended and the Mustang and her Arab friend were loose till someone called the cops. The Arab was caught and impounded (with many bruises and scars to show for it) but 4 men with trucks and 4 wheelers spent 2 days and never could catch the Mustang.

I was called and quickly located her. She came when I called her and I led her home.

So, IMHO, these animals have some use, but in today's economy they aren't worth much. Training a domesticated horse is expensive, training a feral horse to the point it is safe to handle, and ready to work is several times as expensive.

What should be done is leave the feral horses alone for now, when the economy improves, start the adoption process again. Capturing these animals today will only result in destroying them due the inability to place them. Plus it is a waste of tax money on a doomed endeavor.

As a side note, even before the economy tanked, the bottom fell out of the horse sale market. The "do gooders" banned horse meat sales in this country. Horses were always worth "something" when they could be sold for meat. Now many horses just starve to death or are "turned loose to run free" when the owners can no longer afford them. (Those horses usually die a horrible death in less than a year.) Any animal that produces 44 pounds of manure a day is going to generate some hefty feed bills!

There isn't much between me and Winnemucca except 200 miles of open range, and it has lots of horses and deer. I think the major group that wants the horses gone is the one with "grazing rights." I don't know what the current plans are but I'll stop by the BLM office next time I'm in town and ask, you've got me curious.

People here as well are turning horses loose or giving them away.

As was previously mentioned, these so-called "wild" horses (and burros) are actually feral animals, escaped or released from domesticity, as unnatural in the ecosytems they've invaded as kudzu vine, zebra mussels, buffel grass, or the escaped snakes now occupying Florida swamps.

Scientific management of the range invaded by these exotic species would dictate their eradication and wholesale elimination. That this hasn't been done is a consequence of "warm and fuzzy" emotion prevailing over science, and the vociferous protestations of "Wild Horse Annie" and her idiotic acolytes, and the reliably clueless US congress.

Overgrazing by cattle and sheep growers is already a disgraceful ecological disaster in most of western Federal rangeland.

The continuing controversy concerning "wild" horse and burro management is predicated on a scientific sham --- these animals hold no rightful place in the environments they've been despoiling for centuries, and ought to be eradicated with the prejudice applied to crabgrass, bedbugs, and AIDs.

There are no "pros" in the debate over maintaining feral horses and burros on fragile, xeric, habitats. The "cons" are the proponents of the ridiculous status quo. The environmentally correct course is to eradicate these invasive animals, and let the land get back to normal, without their infestation.

I think the situation varies in different parts of the country. In South Dakota, especially on the Sioux reservations, fairly large herds of wild horses exist in balance on the shortgrass prairie.


Wild horses grazing on the Cheyenne River Sioux Reservation, north central South Dakota, with Coffee Butte in the background.


Prairie dogs, yep, they're a problem. Horses, not. As the Sioux say, "horses make a landscape more beautiful." I think what is needed is a change in attitude on the part of the people (those with cheap grazing rights on Federal land) who want to see them eliminated. How anyone could argue for the extermination of these majestic, sacred animals is totally beyond me. It speaks to a poverty of the soul that I simply cannot understand.


Bullseye

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Five screws and 3-1/2 inches.

I love horses having started working on a cattle ranch at the age of 11 using horses daily. Later I raised, trained and showed Morgan Horses for show and competitive trail events. I am a native of Nevada and have spent lots of time in the field observing the so-called "wild horses". They aren't "wild". They are the offspring of tame horses turning out during harsh winters by Ranchers that were unable to feed them. The survivors are a hearty bunch. The naturalists call them an "invasive specie" because nature did not put them out there. They are beautiful to watch, but are extremely destructive to the natural habitat. I have watched a band of "wild" horses destroy an otherwise running water spring because it wasn't running enough water to supply the band right at that moment. They paw at the ground to create more water flow, but that causes the spring to silt up and decrease flow. Sometimes the spring is plugged and never comes back. Legitimate wildlife then has to find other sources of water which can be far between and few in number in Nevada. The amount of natural browse used by the feral horses is mind boggling. The real wild life is in direct competition with the vast numbers of feral horses and is loosing the battle.

Now let me talk about the life span of a tame and cared for horse vs. that of the free roaming feral horse. A human cared for horse is usually wormed and vetted regularly. Its life span can reach 30 years with a 20 year working life as a reasonable average. The tame horse is comfortable right up until it dies from old age. Conversely, the feral horse is never wormed (four specie of worms working on it), never vetted, never hoof trimmed and subject to all sorts of untreated injuries and ailments. The average feral horse is old at 6 years of age and always dies a horribly painful death of starvation or colic usually before 8 years of age. I guarantee you do not want to watch and listen to a horse dying of colic. The number of debilitating hoof injuries to the feral horse is much greater than tame horses. I could go on but this serves my point; the feral horse should be totally removed from the range for its sake and for the benefit of the real 'wild' animals out there.

I was in college at UNR when "Wild Horse Annie" started her public campaign to establish "protection" for the feral horse herds. I heard her speak. I knew immediately she didn't have a clue at to the really tough life conditions the feral horses faced. She only saw the flying manes and tails and selfishly wanted to keep that romantic sight perpetuated for herself and others of her ilk. I was sickened by the misunderstanding she and her followers exhibited about feral horses.

As for the real 'wild' horse of the American plains; they became extinct several million years ago. They were at most about 7 or 8 hands high and nothing like the Eurasian horse that was imported by the Spanish beginning in the 1600s. As mentioned prior, you want to see a real 'wild' horse? Go to the Zoo and look at a Zebra. ........ Big Cholla

Cholla, if it's the range you are worried about I think you ought to start with the cows. That's not to say that the horses are not a problem, just that the cows are much worse. You want to see a beautiful meadow turned into a mosquito infested swamp, turn a bunch of cows loose near it.

I don't know a thing about managing wild horses but when my son in law & I hunted in Nevada last year there were more wild horses than deer.We talked to the rancher on our way out & he said the BLM caught & removed 390 horses just before we got there. Hell, Doug & I saw at least that many still on the range. The range was in poor condition, grass stomped down every where. We only saw around 40 or 50 head of cows but 10 times as many horses. The rancher told us the deer hunting was great before the horses became so numerous. That was back in the '60's he said. Besides the horses I put the binoculars on looked underfed, sort of boney. Not a good bet to break & ride I would say. I've owned & rode horses in the past & my horses didn't look anything like these nags. Just my 2 bits worth. Two guys from Reno just got caught shooting several wild horses & now are in prision for it. It's a Federal offense.

Add feral hogs to the list of non-native invasives that do often irreparable damage to habitat, always to the detriment of native game as well as non-game species. I understand that the burros are particularly destructive of habitat.

It sounds to me like lots of protein that could be used.

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Georgia On My Mind

+1 Big Cholla,

I've also raised horses and have one at home. However, as a none native animal they need to go same with the feral hog.

CD

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De Oppresso Liber

I hear what you guys in Nevada are saying. As I noted, the situation is different in different parts of the country, and what might work in Dances with Wolves country, probably doesn't apply in places like Nevada. I took in two abused horses a couple of years ago, rehabilitated them, gentled them, got them halter trained, spent significant money on proper veterinary care, and last week, donated them to a new therapeutic riding program here in the county which wanted them very much. I take a great deal of satisfaction in that. Now, I've got room for two new ones, and I am on the look-out for a couple of paints, preferably black-and-white, with blue eyes. Some members of my Sioux family in South Dakota have actually got some that they'll give me, but getting them all the way back to Virginia seems to be prohibitively expensive.

One of the two that just found a new home is a bay Arabian (Miz Dixie), and the other, is a stunning 16-hand paint-marked Tennessee Walker named Patch. In the attached photo you can see that Dixie's right eye was healing from some kind of benign tumor on the lid. She was in rough shape when she came to me and left in much, much better condition. The vet still isn't sure about what kind of tumor it was, or why it went into remission. She (the vet) attributes it to kindly care. I'm just too warm-hearted when it comes to neglected horses, I suppose.


Bullseye

Attached Images

Patch and Miz Dixie.jpg (87.5 KB, 20 views)

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Five screws and 3-1/2 inches.

We live in sw utah. BLM is just down the street. I was talking to guy in there recently and got this.
There are 23 wild horse herds, 2,100 animals in utah.
10 wild horse herds in iron and beaver counies, 1,000 animals. (we live in iron county)
2 herds of burros (170 animals) in southeastern utah.
I got a brochure out of the office saying to visit these web sites.
DOI: BLM: National Home Page
DOI: BLM: Utah Home Page
Cedar City
Sulphur Horse Association.  ASHA. Sulphur Springs Mustangs. Spanish War Horse. Iberian Sulphur
There is a remote area near nevada to the west of us called indian peak wild horse area. I had been there and the agent asked me about the condition of the grass etc. Its remote, rough trails and about 75 miles out of town to the NW of us. North of hamblin valley on the map. When they go to the area I belive the BLM has a cabin to lay over there. We hauled our quad out there a couple weeks ago but I never needed to pull it off the trailer. I did have one nice bull elk run alongside the truck. Last year a family went out there to look for the horses and got marooned for a little over a week by a snowstorm.
I notice on a map that the blm guy gave me that most of our herds are crowded up tight near the nevada-utah border. That is remote country. In my sw area of utah we only have 2 paved highways that cross over to utah. Highways 56 and 21 and most those herds lay between. Really, all that area you should have a 4wd.
We enjoy exploring that area. There also is a lot of abanded mines and a few ghost towns out there.

Check this site for info on plans to remove wild horses in my area.http://www.blm.gov/ut/st/en/fo/cedar_city.html

Merrill, that area of Utah and Nevada is little travelled and poorly understood. I have taken photos of dragonflies and such around there that have turned out to be the first state records for certain beasties. That whole area is very remote, and has what they called on the movie Predator, "badass bush". There is an area just in Nevada called the Tule Desert that if the Vegas mob knew about it is probably stiff with...well, stiffs. Some of the trails are clearly VERY rarely traveled.

OK, I went to the local BLM office in Marsing Idaho and learned a lot.

Every three to five years they have what she called a "gathering." Once they are all rounded up they get a pretty complete physical (in an ideal world that would happen once a year but it all comes down to $,) branded if not already, birth control for the mares, studs moved from herd to herd to prevent inbreeding. Best animals are turned loose, next best put up for adoption ($125.00.) If not adopted in three tries they are put in sanctuary, that is, fed and cared for until death. It costs $1.30 a day per horse.

They have many horses over 20 years of age. When they round them up they do not run them until they are right at the trap.

There are very few horses with spanish blood in them. I think she called it tiger blood.

She said that they had a lot fewer horses than Utah/Nevada/Wyoming and so it's easier to manage. But it sounded to me like they have a very good program.