I know the black rifles and carbines are all the rage these days, mostly in .223, 7.62x39mm and 9mm caliber. I have no doubt as to their efficacy as firearms for urban protection. But, their appearance still means "assault rifle" to the general public, and even displaying one could have serious consequences, particularly if police response is involved.

I've long been a student of Jeff Cooper, and he had often said that a good lever action carbine in a serious pistol caliber could serve the need as well as any semiauto "black rifle." I've given some thought to this, and recently acquired a lever carbine that may fill the bill to "repel boarders."

This is a Browning Model 92 Winchester clone, made in Japan in 1983. These rifles were imported by Browning from 1978 to 1987. They are very close replicas of the original Winchesters, and incorporate no politically correct safeties such as seen on the recent Rossi/Puma import clones of the '92.

This rifle is very well made, and the '92 action is very slick. This one feeds .44 magnum and .44 special ammo flawlessly.

It will give you 12 rounds of more than adequate power very quickly, and will not raise eyebrows as an "evil gun." Coupled with a revolver in the same caliber, the combination could be very effective in a defensive role.

Here's the gun:



It now joins my other pistol-caliber lever actions. Top to bottom: Winchester 94/22 - .22 LR, Rossi Model 92 in .357 magnum, and a Winchester Model 94AE "Trapper" in .45 Colt. All of these handle easily and are a delight to carry.



Anyone else see the utility of these guns based on century-old designs?

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

I think that is an excellent concept. I love pistol caliber carbines, and that Browning is a great little gun.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

I've got a stainless Rossi .357 model 92 and it works flawlessly. However, I did replace the sights with some more usable- a brass bead front and a semi-buckhorn rear Marbles. I'm tempted to get one of the 24" barrel stainless rifles in .357 from Rossi too, since they are so much more affordable than the new Marlins, especially in stainless. Stainless isn't traditional, but it looks good to me on rifles- I don't care for it on revolvers.

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Lost it all in a boat accident

I have a Uberti Golden Boy in .45 Colt. In addition to being able to use it in Cowboy Mounted Shooting and Single Action Shooting, it makes a handy, non-threatening HD rifle, although limited in range.

I agree and have a Win 94 in 44 mag and a 92 clone in 357. I would feel well armed with either.

Yep I love them. I have Marlin 357 and 44 Mag with several matching caliber(s) S&W's

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Still Running Against the Wind

This thread is timely. My Chief Deputy, in what little spare time he has, is writing a lesson plan for teaching a POST approved lever action carbine course.
IMO (ok , I know all the SWAT guys are falling out of their chairs) that a lever action carbine makes a great patrol rifle. Simple, easy to use, accurate to 100 yards by most any quality of shooter, hard hitting in 30-30 (pistol calibers don't thrill me as much as a 30-30 does, but either way the concept is valid) non threatening to even the most anti gun mayor and city council, and it gives a patrol officer a good tool to solve 100 yard or so problems.
Maintance is minimal, there are no parts or magazines to loose, or insert backwards (I guess everyone has seen the photo) and after 7 rounds you can drop 'em in the chamber and keep shooting.
A 30-30 would have solved the problem in North Hollywood several years ago, as well as any number of other gunfights over the past 20, or 200 years.
John Wayne carried one, how threatening can they be?????. Leverguns are the American carbine, they are not evil in anyone's mind.
I carried one back in the day, and I always felt good about having it with me....I still have that levergun, I will have it til I die...it is loaded right now, ready for duty should the need arise....

How long is your hallway? Mine's quite a bit shorter than 100 yds.

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Insert short witty words here

I'd have to agree with the OP and the good Colonel. I remember reading his article when it first came out, and at first I thought he was really making a mistake. . .but I am no rifleman. I showed that article to a friend of mine who is a real rifleman, and he went to his safe, pulled out his .44 levergun, and took me outside to show me what he could do with it. In the hands of a skilled operator, it is one heckuva weapon. My deer rifle is a Marlin in .30-30. I especially like the idea of one cartridge for both pistol and carbine, and as soon as I get past my S&W M&P 15 fixation, I just may acquire a second lever gun in .44 Magnum. But first, I am bound and determined to master this EBR which really is a fine firearm.


Bullseye

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Five screws and 3-1/2 inches.

I've had a Mini-14, SKS, AR15, and M-4 and don't really miss any of them.
That lever action Browning would be perfect for me if I could blacken that gold trigger.

All great choices, and for all the reasons you mentioned plus they are great range and hunting guns. I have almost exactly the same collection, except my .357 is a Marlin 1894C. A 125gr 357Mag out of a carbine is a devastating proposition for HD.

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" I said, good DAY! "

I sold my Mini-14 and replaced it with this:

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Regards, Ron
USASA 1965/69

One can easily adapt combat shotgunning techniques to feed a levergun on the go. in .30-30, you have 150 to 180 grain bullets out there and everything in between.

The levergun is a solid choice for an all around rifle to include for use in social occasions.

Get a non tricked out Mini 14 or a pump action Remington 7615 if for some reason you want to avoid the EBR look (or even an M1 Garand), however anyone that's seen recent military service is going to equate "M4/M16 = good guy".

Pistol caliber carbines, particularly lever action ones have some problems that haven't been mentioned:

1. Pistol bullets, esp. when upped to carbine velocities, penetrate more walls/barriers than does 5.56mm, particularly JHP rounds or light M193 type ball. This is why LE moved away from 9mm subguns and to M4 carbines and their ilk to begin with.

2. Conversely, pistol bullets at carbine velocities will NOT penetrate soft armor. 5.56mm will, unless someone has rifle plates. M955 black tip (not sold commercially, but can be obtained) meanwhile will even penetrate many rifle plates. (It penetrates as well, or better than, the old M2 .30-06 black tip stuff.)

3. Pistol bullets are generally designed to work best within a certain velocity range. That does not always include the highest possible velocity or carbine ballistics.

4. While hit probabality increases with a shoulder arm, a pistol caliber carbine lacks the range of a real carbine. It's going to work best in the same 0 to 100meter range as a shotgun, and not the 0-300ish meter range of an M4 clone or the 0-600 meter range of an A4 type rifle.

5. No flash suppression device on the muzzle. Think that doesn't matter? Try firing them at night or in enclosed spaces....

6. The commercial/hunting grade parts of the magazine tube may or may not take well to being left loaded for long periods of time.

7.Lever actions aren't terribly great for shooting when prone or from odd positions. That's why they never saw widespread military adoption even during their heyday.

8. Not the easiest thing to use one handed, now is it?

9. Often will be longer/bulkider than an EBR. I've got a Marlin in .357 Winchester sitting in the corner next to an an M4 clone with the stock partially collapsed. The Marlin is longer and more likely to catch or bang into things if I use it indoors. Same situation with my .30-30. Get a side folder like a Sig 556 or what not, the weapon can become more portable still.

10. The lack of an adjustable stock means problems fitting different people or when used with armor. (I have armor. Works great. If someone doesn't... well you probably spent your money on the wrong things if you're actually worried about needing a rifle or carbine for defense.)

11. Our old friend that elusive concept of stopping power - it favors rifles or carbines firing rifle projectiles unless someone wants to use their Marlin Guide Gun to launch .45-70s projectiles.

12. Optics and lights are your friends up close and in the dark. Mounting these to a lever action means breaking out the duct tape.

13. the Unlucky number - it's possible to choke a lever gun when operating it under stress much more easily than any sort of remotely properly maintained EBR.

14. Better hope that you never have to reload... I personally would rather deal with the gross motor skill of inserting a fresh magazine into a bit hole compared to puttling small individual cartridges into a small loading gate.

That's 14 too many potential "oops" problems for my liking, compared to the vague possibility that someone might think the weapon that I just used to shoot someone looks nasty. People don't watch that many cowboy movies these days, they do see images on the news/in movies of M4 armed troops identified with "America" and "defense". It's the Garand of today.

If we really want to play what if, a modern audience might think someone is odd or watches too many cowboy movies and thinks they are John Wayne if someone is keeping a lever gun/six gun combo around. That's just about as likely as being villified for an EBR.

"11. Our old friend that elusive concept of stopping power - it favors rifles or carbines firing rifle projectiles unless someone wants to use their Marlin Guide Gun to launch .45-70s projectiles."

Hmmm...good point. I think keeping a few monster level 405gr loads handy for the Browning 1886 might be a good idea. Even if you can't penetrate their armor, you can thump 'em real good!

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" I said, good DAY! "

GatorFarmer. . .simply an awesome post. Like I say, I am no rifleman, but I am learning, and your post was extremely instructive.


Bullseye

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Five screws and 3-1/2 inches.

This IMI Timberwolf .357/.38 pump and an old mod 28 ought to get me by.


And the Camp 9 ain't black


No pistol to match but it's not an evil black .223

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God spelled backwards is dog.

Gator Farmer:

Really good points, and well thought out. My only point was that one could do a lot worse than the old lever actions, and not alarm the populace with an EBR. I betcha I could walk around my neighborhood with that '92 with no consequences, where an M4 would probably result in a goodly number of "man with a gun" calls to the police!

I personally would feel more than adequately armed with 12 rounds of .44 mag in a handy and reliable carbine that can place the rounds accurately out to 100 yards or more. I would guess that most goblins will not have bullet-resistant vests; what are the odds?

By the same token, I'm not selling my 5.56mm M4 topped with an Aimpoint and equipped with a blinding side light, for all the reasons you mentioned.

In my mind, blue steel and walnut do beat anodized aluminum and parkerizing any day for aesthetics. I guess I'm a die-hard aesthete as well as a dinosaur...!

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Gator is the resident Urban Survival Expert on the board. He also can be quite helpful on pharmacutical and mental health issues as well-he did spend his formative years in Lansing MI
I do miss the Realtor Bob stories though.

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Forum consigliere

I have the Marlin carbines in 357 and 44 Magnum, also both Camp Carbines. I would probably opt for the latter, the 45 Camp Carbine uses M1911 magazines-at least mine does, magazines for my S&W M659 work fine in my 9MM Camp carbine. Rifle and handgun in same caliber-I like that.

I have a Marlin 1984 FG in .41 Magnum.

It shoots well out to 100 yards, likes my reloads, and is handy. I had XS Ghost Ring sights put on it because my eyes don't work as well with standard irons as they used too.

I also have several .41 Magnum revolvers. I think I could do worse than to use the combination in a survival situation.

One of my favorite subjects and I cant say much more than the others here have said. I also have a browning 92 in 44 mag + a rossi 92 in .357.
I have a win 94 30-30 I bought new back in the late 50s. I shot a deer at about 220 yards with it, have a williams foolproof on it.
Here is a photo of my levers.

Who says leverguns can't be black:





---

I've heard the theories about the military not adopting the levergun because of the prone position thing, but I'm not buying that, at least not at retail cost. I know it was one of the supposed reasons. Remember, the military didn't adopt a repeating rifle as standard issue until the Krag and even then it had a cutoff in it so that it functioned as a single shot with the other four rounds to be used "in a rush" as the military thought that anything other than a single shot would lead to wasting ammo.

Pistol caliber carbines are fun for plinking and have a niche, but give me a .30-30.

My rifles consist of a Winchester 94in 30-30, Marlin 336xlr 30-30, a Henry H001 22lr and a Marlin 94c 357 mag. I don't own any other rifles, haven't seen the need.

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NRA Life Member

" By the same token, I'm not selling my 5.56mm M4 topped with an Aimpoint and equipped with a blinding side light, for all the reasons you mentioned. "

John.. I know what you mean..My Colt 6940 is staying put.. However my next long gun will be a pistol cartridge.. just have not decided on .38/.357 or 44 Mag/44 Special..

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SWCA #2306
DAV in honor of POP

I also have a Browning B-92 .44 magnum bought back in the early 1980s. Thumbs up! Keeping it company are a Winchester Trapper .45 Colt, a Winchester Trapper .44 magnum, and a Winchester 94 .45 Colt with 20 inch barrel.

I remember when the urban carbine was under discussion. It has a lot going for it because it is so familiar with a low evil quotient. My limited experience with one was with a pre-safety Marlin M94 in .44 Magnum, which was NOT a tackdriver.

If someone gave me a .357 carbine I wouldn't turn it down, but Gator Farmer's points are well made. The M4 EBR makes a fashion statement of its own and I can shoot it better.

However I would like to try out one of the new Uberti Burgess carbines--just because.

I'll stick with the AKM with a sack full of mags (40,30). In a scenario like post-Katrina, no time for lever actions.

I love the black rifles but I have a .44 Mag Marlin that I'd feel comfortable with for that role. One interesting thing about the format is that you never have to let it run dry. You can top off a few rounds at a time as an ongoing tactical re-load if there are pauses in the action. Mine has an Eotech sight which is a strange looking mix of the old and the new, but it works like stink.

I have always like the lever action as a urban use long gun. It does not attract attention or comment like a black gun does. I like the pistol caliber guns because you can pair them with a pistol. The 30-30 rifle is a good choice also. I currently own a Winchester 30-30 Trapper carbine for a urban protection gun. They are vastly under rated as a working protection gun.

I like lever guns. Heck I like all guns.

But if I'm going to carry a long gun for self defense, it won't be a pistol caliber long gun.

Two points I will disagree with...

.30-30 is low flash. I've shot it a lot at night- I don't know any about any other caliber, but it's never bothered me- or any of my hunting friends.

Also, the fact about "hunting springs" is speculation, but I see the reasoning. I know that one of my 1897's was loaded with five rounds in the mag for 20+ years and still functions just as good today as it ever has, and also many vintage 1894's have been left loaded for decades and work just fine. I've never heard of a bad magazine tube spring on one- no matter how rusty.

Gives me a great excuse to get one of those new Rossi stainless .30-30's to try!

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Lost it all in a boat accident

I have that same rifle. I would not feel undergunned with it in a HD scenario. Yeah, the EBRs in rifle calibers have all kinds of advantages, but I would not want to be looking down the barrel of a B-92 .44 Mag.! I have shot some hot factory hollow points from it, and boy howdy did that little carbine bark! I think that the B-92 in .44 Mag. is by far the best pistol cartridge levergun carbine you can own. Great well made gun.

To answer your question, yes it will do just fine to protect you and the family if need be. I would never trade mine. Having said that, mine does not serve as the HD long gun. That job goes to the 12 ga. !


WG840

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Freedom above all else.

Gator farmer nailed it dead on the money. I am an old guy with a bunch of the very guns we are talking about and while I tend to rely on the handguns of my youth , the long guns are modern{kind of} an M4 Colt with lights and sights, an 1187 Remington Police gun with the same type of acc. and for when the going gets serious , a short barreled M1A or an AR10 carbine. If'n I'm going to carry a long gun, and why would'nt I , it will be a serious caliber rather than the same caliber as my sidearm.

No doubt some kind of Para Military rifle, and the training to use it would be better in the Zombie Wars...

However I have on many occasions carried a Win Mod 94 Trapper in 44 Mag as a "road" gun, especially when traveloing on a hunting trip.

As much as I like an AR, when you getr to cam on a bear or pig hunt the 223 is near worthless, where the 44 can double as a second rifle if necessary.

Nothing wrong with the 30/30, but since I always wear a 44 Mag revolver when I hunt, and the 44 Mag rifle carries more shells I prefer it.

Also a 44 mag was my first Centerfire rifle and I have killed a bunch of deer and a few pigs with one as well.

Also as others have stated, it does not draw "attention" if someone sees it like a "Black Rifle", esecially in hunting areas.

Also because a lever rifle is legal in most places it makes a great choice for an Urban Rifle.

Also you can reload it when it is cocked with a round in the chamber.

Just train with it as you would any self defense arm...

PS, I have a SureFire Nitrolon flashlight [being "plastic", it does not scratch the gun], taped to the left side of my 44 Mag Trapper just in front of the fore stock, because sometimes, things go "bump" in the night....

I just love the whole lever gun concept, especially pistol caliber short carbines. I live in the South, and I really would feel well armed with one here, and they don't attract the attention of AR type platform guns. I agree with Gator's posts, as I almost always do, but I would LOVE to have a short barreled .38/.357 Magnum lever gun!

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MARK

I have no problem with leverguns and am proud to have a pre-'64 Winchester in my collection, but if your black rifle is legal to own and you're using it under lawful conditions then who cares if it looks evil? I see no point in trying to appease people who hate guns anyway.

While I agree with your thinking...

Case in point, for several years I have hunted in Idaho for Black Bear in the Spring and Fall seasons.

My buddy has a cabin up there. The forest is so thick that you can not drive any ATV off the forest road. So you put out your baits, 300 yards or so off the forest road.

I want to carry a rifle while doing so... My Win 44 Mag Trapper, in the ATV rack, does not even draw a second look...

But an AR, even if it was a 450 Bush Master, or an M1 A or an H&K would no doubt raise some eyebrows... And they would not be as light and handy when carrying in more bait to the bear blind...

Some times it is just best to be "Low Profile".

And as my buddy that owns the Cabin lives in LA Kalif, If I decide to go and see him, then my "road 44 Mag" is legal in the RepublicK of Kalifornia.

I agree. I don't hunt. If I break out a long gun, it's for serious business and I don't care what anybody thinks.

This is just my opinion on the matter and not for or against any opinions stated by others.

Let's say things go south really quick and a person has to go into a survial mode with family protection. This has actually happened in many areas (Google Cedar Grove Riot, Shreveport).

If a person has a few good handguns, they are ready for close quarters work. Of course these have to be in the proper calibers to be efficient. The person will also need a large supply of ammunition since the situation may last 48 hours.

Then a couple of rifles may be needed but just how many people, after all we are talking about having to shoot people and not BigFoot, do you think you will need to shoot at 100 yards? I do not care if one is in the Watts Riot, Rodney King Riot or Cedar Grove Riot, people are not being shot at 100 yards. Game animals for food, yes, but not people.

Law Enforcement will occasionally have to deal with longer shots but my friends, a shot of even 75 feet will be hard to justify as self defense. A good example of this is the shootings by LEO during Katrina. Those invovled are now on trial and some have been found guilty.

After getting a few common weapons, a lot of ammo, a stockpile of food and water, it behooves one to think of sealing their homes. If you are at the back of your home holding off someone, you will not be able to stop someone at the front of the house. We saw a lot of this during the Cedar Grove riot but we also had a total idiot for a police chief and a lot of houses went unprotected, even though there were hundreds of LEO in the area. These unprotected houses were burned down as well as businesses while police and fire personnel watched. Homes are the weakest link in the SHTF situations.

I have as many guns as the most ardent collector. I own some of the "assault" rifles, a lot of handguns, rifles, shotguns and a couple of other unclassified guns. If things get nasty, I will be headed for a good shotgun, a lever rifle and the 1911 on my side. My home is over 3000 feet and I have an alarm system that will tell me the location of any entry or movement just by looking at either of three control panels around the house.

Most people plan on serious protection as being in the open. It does not often happen that way. In the case of severe attack, it will be while you are inside and it will not happen suddenly. You can be firebombed or many other things. What you cannot do is be concerned with what is happening a 100 yards away unless you are in a rural area and you cannot be concentrating on just one side of the home.

I'm jumping on Gators bandwagon. I have several lever actions and like to shoot them more than most other long guns in my safes. But, in an "urban survival situation" they would be the last long guns I'd pull out.

And as far as the opinions of non gunners and black rifles, or EBRs, most of them don't know the difference and couldn't tell an M16 from a Red Ryder BB gun, a guns a gun and they hate, and fear, them all. It's an ignorance thing.

My computer, with all my photos is in the shop, so I can't post pics with this borrowed computer.

That said, I am on the same page with Gator. To this end, I recently bought 2 Marlin levers. First dalliance was a 1978 (pre safety, thin stock) 1894 in .44 mag and it shoots straight. This all around rifle is ideal and non threatening to the general public, but more importantly, it ups the velocity from a sedate 1200fps to 1700fps with a 265g cast bullet. That's some serious power. I mounted a Leupold 2x7 on it and I can not say enough about how pleased I am with it.

My second Marlin is a 45=70 Guide Gun. On this rifle I mounted ghost ring sights and a 2.5x scout scope with quick release rings.

Jeff Cooper would be proud of this rifle, it's truely a scout rifle and I would not hesitate to use it for such a purpose. 6 rounds in the magazine, one in the pipe and all of them 350 to 425grains of smashum.

I have a Mini 30 in a traditional but plastic stock. It is also a fine rifle for such uses. I load a 150g NBT @ 2100fps, that's a fantastic game getter. Probably work for SD too.

In any event, a short rifle of sufficient power is ideal for SD or hunting and as accurate as a lever is, you can reach out to @ 200 yards for that trophy.

I like levers, but I don't see the point of carrying a rifle platform and loading it with a handgun round. While the .44 Magnum is very effective in a rifle on the game fields, the .30 WCF is equally effective and can punch through intermediate barriers that a .44 cannot. This is not a concern while hunting, but it might be during the defensive/LEO application of the rifle. Make mine a .30 WCF.

Interesting thread, good stuff to think about. I have several so-called "assault rifles" and, like many, have thought of them as being useful tools in a home-defense context or in a SHTF situation. If the latter were to occur, a major social disruption/breakdown, I'm not likely to be as concerned with the political correctness aspects of using a black-rifle versus a lever gun. I also own a couple of the latter, a pair of Marlins, one a 45/70 Guide Gun and the other an 1894 in 357. It does strike me that the latter might make a good general HD gun for something short of a SHTF situation, might raise fewer eyebrows on the part of the police and prosecutors than would a tricked-out tacticool semi-auto. But I tend to tilt toward a handgun and shotgun combo for HD.

One thing I like about going 'old school' is that I don't like defensive weapon systems that are dependent on battery powered devices. Most red-dots, lasers, flashlights, illuminated scopes, etc., fall into that category. Not to say that I don't keep a couple of small Surefire flashlights near at hand, and also own a couple of other gizmos, but I swear that Murphy's Law seems to dictate that those gadgets all work just dandy right up until the moment that I really need them...... Go figure. I believe that reliance on battery power on a defensive gun makes the infamous internal-lock of S&W fame seem like an enhancement by comparison.

Thanks for the discussion, guys, great stuff to contemplate.

Sir, FWIW, I don't see a lot of defensive utility in pistol-caliber lever-actions. They lack the compactness and one-handed operation of pistols, the power of shotguns, and the range of actual rifles.

If you can't have a pistol (because of silly laws or whatever) and can't physically manage a shotgun or actual rifle, then there's some value in a pistol-caliber lever-action. Otherwise, not so much.

They do make good plinkers and short-range hunting guns, though.

JMHO.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

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Wishin' don't make it so.

I also don't understand the fixation with RANGE on a home defense weapon. In the house I'd probably grab a shotgun and maybe a handgun if I have time.
I don't for one minute doubt the potential of a .357 at rifle velocities. Everyone is quick to point out that inside 100 yards the .357 has as much killing power as a 30/30, but it won't serve in a defense role?
Handling? I'll have to concede, goes to the M4's etc.

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Regards, Ron
USASA 1965/69

I have the choice of carrying an M4 or a 10mm MP5 at work, and I've always chosen the MP-5. I know the MP5 isn't a lever gun by any means, but it is a pistol caliber carbine.

I agree with Oldman45 and Ronj - I just don't see the need for a rifle cartridge. I've shot the MP5 enough to know it will make head shots all day at 50 yards, and will easily hit a man sized target at 100. Any scenario with me banging away at somebody farther than that is so remote as to be not worth considering. The handiness and reliability of that little German tommygun more than make up for any other shortcomings.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

My brother has a Winchester #1300 turkey gun with a 21" VR barrel and a 4x scope. With a Imp. Cyl. choke tube and 2.75" Rottweil-Brenneke slugs it will shoot a fist size group at 100 yards. A little more versatile than a lever gun and lots faster to shoot and load.

This discussion is interesting, but I am not sure the lever gun is the best thing to grab for. I have seen a good many deer hunters work a lever action and never pull the trigger, emptying the cartridges onto the ground. Excitement can create errors.

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My lever is on the top -- a 1974 Auto Ordnance Thompson with a 50 round AO West Hurley, New York drum. That gets the carbine part done. A S&W 1911 with multiple match quality mags gets the handgun part done. The 45 ACP is almost a 100 year design so I'm 3 for 3.

Now the real question is: How long can I shoot before I have to reload mags. Aimed fire? A long time before we switch to the EBRs.

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S&WHF 366

I think practicing handling and dry firing any firearm is a wise practice, especially one you might use in self defense. I read an account of a Marine in the Battle for the Pusan Perimeter, he mentioned having problems with his M-1 Carbine, realized he forgot to disengage the safety.
I personally like my firearms stock, as long as the action is smooth I feel secure. I also the FBI rule of "low light-close range" still holds true.