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Old 10-19-2010, 08:56 PM
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Default Sigma problem, any ideas?

Just bought a sigma 9mm (sw9ve) off my friend's brother. My first handgun ever, really liked the feel and everything. Trigger wasn't a huge deal to me, until I noticed the accuracy.

Now I'm wondering if it's just the trigger that's doing it, or if there is something really wrong with the gun. At only around 20 feet away, I couldn't even hit a piece of white printing paper. At all. As my friend kept saying it was me and I couldn't aim (who on earth could be that bad of an aim?) I asked to use his gun. He has a springfield XD. I hit every single shot I fired (total of 5) right in the center of the paper. And then I backed up and continued to hit the sheet.

With my sigma, I didn't get the same accuracy until I was within 10 feet of my target. The bullets were all over the place. I can't imagine the trigger pull throwing off my aim by that much. I let my friend try it and he couldn't seem to shoot it any better.

I'm just wondering if there is something really wrong with the gun, or maybe the trigger takes... a ton of getting used to?

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Is there a way to test if it is indeed the trigger to blame here?
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Old 10-19-2010, 09:07 PM
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Relax. With any firearm, takes time to get used to it. I have the SIGMA 9MM. Bought it last year. Trigger is bit heavy, but you get used to it, AND accuracy gets better. I've had mine at an outdoor range (25Yds) and indoor range 10 to 20yds. Accuracy is great!! You'll get used to it. Practice is the key here. Good luck.
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Old 10-19-2010, 09:28 PM
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While I understand that it takes time to maybe fine tune the accuracy with the firearm, this is beyond not being able to hit the bullseye. I'm talking about not even being able to hit the target paper. I picked up his gun (which I had never shot before) and hit with every shot. Just doesn't make sense to me.
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Old 10-19-2010, 09:40 PM
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First time shooting my Sigma 9mm was at a police range. Only distance they have is 25yds. I wasn't the best shot, but it did make me a better shooter practicing at 25yds. My buddies an active duty 23 year veteran Police Officer. I asked him about the trigger and he told me it was fine. All I need is practice with MY gun. As you do with YOUR gun. Keep on practicing.
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Old 10-20-2010, 12:40 AM
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Old 10-20-2010, 01:02 AM
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Great photo. Just takes time and practice.
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Old 10-20-2010, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sr77 View Post
Just bought a sigma 9mm (sw9ve) ...My first handgun ever, really liked the feel and everything. ...At only around 20 feet away, I couldn't even hit a piece of white printing paper. At all.
First, welcome to the Sigma. You have already notice its great feel, so don't be discouraged just yet. There is a shooter break-in period sometimes, particularly with trigger action and feel. This is particularly true of a new shooter.

Quote:
...The bullets were all over the place. I can't imagine the trigger pull throwing off my aim by that much. I let my friend try it and he couldn't seem to shoot it any better.
Ah, yes, the trigger. The Sigma likes to be shot using a full pull of the trigger, with no hesitation and without jerking it. Since one of the 'safeties' is the trigger that will not release the striker until it is fully rearward, you must pull straight back and don't let up or change pressure until it until it hits the rear stop. This sounds simple, but it takes practice.

Dry-fire practice can be your friend here, WITH AN EMPTY GUN! Bonus: you only need to pull the slide 1/2" to the rear (listen for a click) to reset the striker, and you can pull the trigger again.

Concentrate on making each trigger pull a smooth, full pull, with no hesitation, no jerking, and without letting the sights drift.

For extra credit, balance a coin flat on top of the slide and make your trigger pull so smooth that the coin does not move... Once this feels natural, try the same thing at the range. Oh, and don't anticipate when it will go bang, just concentrate on the trigger pull and let is surprise you!

Quote:
As my friend kept saying it was me and I couldn't aim (who on earth could be that bad of an aim?)
You are both right. It is not your aim, but it is you. You need to get used to the Sigma's preferred full trigger pull. Remember, the Sigma is not a 'bullseye' shooter, but it responds well to a smooth, firm, continuous pull.

Quote:
...With my sigma, I didn't get the same accuracy until I was within 10 feet of my target.
Hey, 10 feet is a good place to start. It is reasonable 'combat' range, so don't worry about the more 'manly' 20 or 25 yards until you get more trigger practice.

Try dry firing as described, and then start at 10 feet. Use your new full-pull trigger skills and you will see more consistent groups on the paper. Don't worry about dead-center, but the holes should start to group closer. Once it gets boring a 10 feet, move it back.

Quote:
...Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Well, you might consider renting, borrowing or buying a good double-action revolver. A .22 revolver is a fine training tool in general, and while a good gun will cost more than the Sigma, the ammunition is so cheap that buying the gun will be almost your only expense.

At one time, the Sigma was marketed as a 'revolver replacement' for law enforcement, since it had a trigger feel was similar to the revolver trigger that those who had been issued wheel guns had already mastered.

Go practice, dry fire it a lot, and let us know how much better it does...
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Old 10-20-2010, 11:07 AM
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I can barely keep it on the paper at 25 yards. But I don't practice 25 yards. The sigma trigger leads to a lot of "dropped shots" reason being at 20 feet it only takes about a quarter of an inch muzzle drop to equal 2 feet low. Practice dry firing with a dime on the slide placed at the front sight. If the dime falls you fail. If the dime stays every time then you may need to send your gun in to get checked out.

I too felt the same way when I first got my Sigma, swore the gun was screwed up. A competitive shooter friend of mine grabbed it and drilled the center out of the target at 25 yards, said "It ain't the gun". It took me weeks of practice and training to get proficient with the trigger. However the good of it is that it made me a better shooter for other firearms.
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Old 10-20-2010, 11:42 AM
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Ok, I'll give the coin thing a try. I appreciate the help.
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Old 10-20-2010, 11:46 AM
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First time out with my SW40VE, I couldn't hit the target either and I had just tacked it over a cardboard the previous shooter had left with lots of holes already in it, so I also didn't even know where my shots had went. (only shot 50 rounds that day)

Second time, I brought a large clean sheet of poster board and put my targets on it. I shot 75 rounds that day and discovered that I was shooting low and right.

Third range trip, I shot 125 rounds and began hitting the target at least, but still low until the final shot of the day when I shifted my grip, took aim, and hit a bullseye.

Fourth range trip, 150 rounds. At 4, 7, and 15 yards I fairly consistently hit the target with a handfull of bullseyes at each range. I still have the strong tendency to hit the lower half of the target; I very rarely hit above the bulleye level.

I have come to realize that the gun does shoot straight, but the trigger pull induces a few things that cause your aim to be off. It's in your grip and hands. One thing that helps a lot is to grip as hard as you can; that prevents you from tightening your grip as you pull the trigger back (since the grip is already as tight as you can manage). I've also found that the "thumbs forward" IPDA technique works much, much better for me than the standard grip technique the military taught me for the M-9. Getting those thumbs off the gun removed a lot of push as my trigger finger strokes. It's amazing how tiny contractions in your fingers/wrist affect your shot. They get magnified by the Sigma's trigger due to it's design. The other forum members here all say that the Sigma will make you a better shooter; I believe that is why. In order to shoot it well, you have to learn a very good technique, grip, finger control, wrist control, etc. By the time you have it all down, I'd guess you can shoot another gun pretty good as every bad thing has been removed. My military M-9 made me look good as it covered my mistakes (especially in SA shooting). Now the Sigma is teaching me to actually learn everything correctly or else my shots go all over the place.
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Old 10-20-2010, 12:00 PM
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Bitstreem, I agree with everything you've said. Technique plays a major part. I thought I knew it all until my Law Enforcement buddy mentioned a few techniques I've been using. Grip as you said, and lets not forget squeezing (not jerking) trigger, AND breathing. After I utilized these techniques, as well as the ones you mentioned, my accuracy is much improved. Infact, headed to the range today!
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Old 10-20-2010, 01:18 PM
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Another technique is applying more pressure with your support hand, and only a firm (think handshake) pressure with your primary hand. Try them all, and see which works best for you.

As many have already said, a steady trigger pull is better than staging or jerking.

Also remember the Sigma is not a target pistol, but it is capable of good accuracy. I find that if I put the white dot of the front sight over where I want the point of impact to be works best out to 15 yards or so. A 6 o'clock target hold puts 'em all low.

Oh, and nothing substitutes for practice and dry firing is great practice.
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Old 10-20-2010, 03:57 PM
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One thing nobody mentioned, the Sigma sites should cover the target, not lollypop view like we used to be taught.

You didn't mention whether you were firing off hand or from a supported bench. Get used to the trigger, and break in the gun with support. Then off hand should get better.
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Old 10-20-2010, 04:37 PM
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Everytime I go to the range I shoot both ways. Supported and off hand. Practice and training I've received has greatly improved my accuracy.
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Old 10-20-2010, 07:21 PM
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I disliked the way the SW40VE wanted the target covered, so (after my front sight had fallen out) replaced it with a HiViz fiber-optic sight made for a Glock. Now I can use the standard "lollipop" sight picture and am very pleased with it's accuracy. Here is my last target, printed on standard copy printer paper, shot at 25 feet. Federal 180gr FMJ.

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Old 10-20-2010, 07:37 PM
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I shot the target pictured above by using a standard sight picture...



and splitting the target dot in half with the front sight.
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Old 10-21-2010, 09:58 PM
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Went out and shot today, focusing more on my stance, grip, and hold (used the thumbs forward thing), and above all else I worked on pulling the trigger as suggested by a lot of you, all at once, firm but not jerking it.

Gotta say, it helped a ton and I really appreciate it. From 25 feet I was hitting a 4 inch target. Not every time of course, but my shots were all pretty dang close. Huge improvement from last time.

Thanks again for the help, pretty satisfied with my purchase now. Looking forward to practicing more with it. Not as discouraging when the bullets actually end up where you want them to.
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Old 10-21-2010, 11:22 PM
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My first time at the range I was ready to throw the gun at the target with more accuracy. The gun will make you a better shooter. If your right handed you tend to shoot left and low due to the heavy trigger. Practice, you will develope a better shooting technique.

Good Luck...
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Old 10-21-2010, 11:48 PM
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Sounds like you may have solved the problem, but I was going to ask if you used the same ammo in your friend's XD as in your gun.

Sometimes certain guns just don't play well with certain ammo. If you run into that situation again, try some different brands of ammo if you can.
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Old 10-22-2010, 12:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sr77 View Post
Went out and shot today, focusing more on my stance, grip, and hold (used the thumbs forward thing), and above all else I worked on pulling the trigger as suggested by a lot of you, all at once, firm but not jerking it.

Gotta say, it helped a ton and I really appreciate it. From 25 feet I was hitting a 4 inch target. Not every time of course, but my shots were all pretty dang close. Huge improvement from last time.

Thanks again for the help, pretty satisfied with my purchase now. Looking forward to practicing more with it. Not as discouraging when the bullets actually end up where you want them to.
That's great news!
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Old 10-22-2010, 10:16 AM
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There is a remote possibility that you could have a barrel problem. Try firing from a rest. If you still have the problem contact LSG.(in the warranty book)
I had a bear of a time with my .40 Sigma. Once I mastered it it is my daily carry.
Oh, by the way I bought a Springfield XD Tactical .45. I attribute my accuracy with it to my Sigma experience.
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Old 10-22-2010, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sr77 View Post
Went out and shot today, focusing more on my stance, grip, and hold (used the thumbs forward thing), and above all else I worked on pulling the trigger as suggested by a lot of you, all at once, firm but not jerking it.

Gotta say, it helped a ton and I really appreciate it. From 25 feet I was hitting a 4 inch target. Not every time of course, but my shots were all pretty dang close. Huge improvement from last time.

Thanks again for the help, pretty satisfied with my purchase now. Looking forward to practicing more with it. Not as discouraging when the bullets actually end up where you want them to.
Glad to hear, just keep up with the range time. Also, lots of dry fire at home will get your muscle memory up. A good exercise for your dry fire practice is to put a penny on top of the front sight and try to not knock it off when you dry fire. I start and end every session by doing that until I get 3 times in a row without the penny dropping. As always, be SURE the weapon is clear and empty before any practice.
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Old 10-22-2010, 12:46 PM
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Hi,
The advice others are giving you is excellent. The Sigma will teach you good trigger control and also to pull the trigger all the way through in one motion. Also, the practice of placing a quarter or any coin on the pistol and dry firing for as long as the coin stays on the pistol is a excellent drill. This is how most shooters learn on a DA revolver. Remember most DA revolvers have the same trigger pull as your Sigma. And a Sigma and a revolver will have about a 10 lb pull. The Sigma is design to be a safe pistol (like a DA revolver) so a person does not accidently discharge the weapon with a light pull. The Sigma by design is one of the safest semi-autos. I recommend a double action only semi-auto or double action revolver for all first time shooters. By design either handgun will teach good handgun skills. And for people that tell you the trigger is bad on a Sigma that will tell you that most of these people don't have the trigger control that you are acquiring.

Good luck and keep practicing.
Howard

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Old 10-22-2010, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sr77 View Post
Went out and shot today, focusing more on my stance, grip, and hold (used the thumbs forward thing), and above all else I worked on pulling the trigger as suggested by a lot of you, all at once, firm but not jerking it.

Gotta say, it helped a ton and I really appreciate it. From 25 feet I was hitting a 4 inch target. Not every time of course, but my shots were all pretty dang close. Huge improvement from last time.

Thanks again for the help, pretty satisfied with my purchase now. Looking forward to practicing more with it. Not as discouraging when the bullets actually end up where you want them to.
SR77, great news. You'll be amazed when certain techniques are applied how well ones accuracy improves. At first I jerked the trigger and I was way off. Keep up the good work.

I was at the range yesterday. Had a blast!! Even fired left handed as well. Sigma 9mm is the way to go. For me, anyway.
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