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  #1  
Old 11-10-2010, 07:53 PM
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Question I have a question for the lawyers/LEO's

Hey everyone, Everything worked out for the best. nothing happened.
thanks for the responses.
peace,
gordon
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Last edited by G.T. Smith; 11-16-2010 at 08:52 PM. Reason: mods delete. everything worked out fine.
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  #2  
Old 11-10-2010, 08:05 PM
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I work for a company that sells primarily to the public sector but we have federal sales. There is a posting that says I can't be forced to take a polygraph.

Out side of that, there is that 5th Amendment. Something isn't sounding right to me.

Szumi
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Old 11-10-2010, 08:19 PM
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Hi:
In my part of the world:
one cannot be forced to take a polygraph exam.
An Agency can "Request" a person to submit to a Polygraph but the person does not have to. Polygraph Test results are not admissable in court.
One does not have to report to a Agency Office for an "Interview".
If there was sufficent evidence for an arrest, then your Daughter would be arrested or a "Notice To Appear" issued to her.
The other side of the coin: two residents signed affidavets that your Daughter attempted to sell "Them" the Morphine Patches? You might consider hiring an Attorney. Also the Police might be "Bluffing" (Lying to get your Daughter to confess)
Jimmy

Last edited by jimmyj; 11-10-2010 at 08:22 PM.
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Old 11-10-2010, 08:22 PM
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Remember its legal for a cop to lie to you. It`s a scare tatic. Also, I aint nobody.
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Old 11-10-2010, 08:35 PM
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If I were she, I'd show up at the 2:00 tomorrow with my lawyer in tow, and ask them to repeat for the record everything they previously told her about the "evidence" against her, how she must submit to the polygraph, what happens after, etc. Then she and her lawyer can decide if the polygraph needs to happen. It's a lot easier to clear a case with a confession than to actually have to investigate it. Not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.
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Old 11-10-2010, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feralmerril View Post
Remember its legal for a cop to lie to you. It`s a scare tatic. Also, I aint nobody.
That is a good point. Cops often win because criminals that haven't done time yet are ill-informed and thus easy to roll.

Szumi

Btw, the more your daughter talks the tighter the noose becomes. It does not matter if she is guilty or not guilty. Speak only through a lawyer period.

Last edited by Szumi; 11-10-2010 at 08:45 PM.
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Old 11-10-2010, 08:47 PM
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I'm a retired LEO, 30 years on the job. Get thee to a lawyer post haste!
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  #8  
Old 11-10-2010, 08:57 PM
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Time to "Lawyer Up".I'm not a LEO or Lawyer or Criminal but I sure can see.
Best wishes.
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Old 11-10-2010, 09:21 PM
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Retired law-enforcement here, over 30 years............ I second the advice to lawyer up immediately and refuse the polygraph at all costs. It's obvious your daughter has become the focus of the investigation at this time. Don't let her talk to anybody except her lawyer from this point forward and let him do all the talking for her. Even if she gets fired......... Even arrested........ Shut up NOW! Lawyer up immediately!

Last edited by Snowbandit; 11-10-2010 at 09:22 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #10  
Old 11-10-2010, 09:27 PM
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And remember, this is America, God Bless it, where we still get to confront our accusers. Get names of the people who signed the affadavits. Sounds like they're trying for a confession thru fear. Remember what Caj says, "Sue everybody!"
OK, he might not have actually said that, but he wanted to.
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  #11  
Old 11-10-2010, 09:38 PM
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Tell your daughter to not say another word. Either she is under arrest, or she isn't, there is no gray area.

She has the absolute right to remain silent, she should use it. This includes refusal of polygraph and all interviews or interrogation.

The LEOs are not trying to clear her, they are trying to trip her up.

As already mentioned, now is the time to lawyer up. It does cost money, but freedom isn't free.

edit to add: Dollars to donuts there are no affidavits.

And tell her do not lie under any circumstances, that will get her locked up. Just zip the mouth and say nothing.

Last edited by m1gunner; 11-10-2010 at 09:40 PM.
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Old 11-10-2010, 09:40 PM
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Not a cop or a lawyer, but my best friend here's a very good criminal defense attorney.

Never, ever talk to the cops in an adversarial situation (or one that could even remotely become one) without a lawyer present.

In such a situation, the police are most definitely not your friends nor are they trying to help you. As pointed out by others, they are allowed to lie to you, and will cheerfully do so.

Anybody who doesn't think they need a lawyer in such a situation ought to have a talk with the former members of the Duke lacrosse team. They HAD lawyers and were almost railroaded.

Drug beef? To paraphrase Josef Stalin, "Lawyer, lawyer and lawyer some more."
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Old 11-10-2010, 10:45 PM
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Another retired cop here, another vote to lawyer up. No lie box unless her attorney says OK. Remember the results of the lie box are based on the examiners opinion.
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Old 11-11-2010, 12:13 AM
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Short answer: Lawyer up Immediately.
Polygraphs are worthless as the probverbial appendages on a bull. They are inadmissible in Court and in my 28 years I have yet to mee any local LEO that had the expertise to administer one. Plus if she passed they are still gonna charge her.
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Old 11-11-2010, 12:19 AM
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As has been stated...your child needs a lawyer...now.
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Old 11-11-2010, 12:47 AM
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For once, a thread without lawyer-bashing!

I concur with the other posters. Lawyer up!
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  #17  
Old 11-11-2010, 12:47 AM
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Years of freedom may hang on every word. Lawyer up.
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Old 11-11-2010, 01:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G.T. Smith View Post
....Now almost a month later two people in the apartment complex where she lives, have signed affidavits saying she tried to sell these patches to them.....
I'm no lawyer. The snip above is what strikes me the strangest of all. Something is very wrong here. I'll jump in with the rest and say get an attorney before doing anything! This stinks of set up badly.
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Old 11-11-2010, 01:08 AM
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One, they are blowing smoke. Two, If they could have charged her they would have. Three don't say another word. four, retain a lawyer. five do what ever the lawyer says.

This is what I would do.

Paul
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Old 11-11-2010, 01:12 AM
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Signs up with the get a lawyer and say nothing.

They have to prove their accusations. She doesn't have to prove anything.
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Old 11-11-2010, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G.T. Smith View Post
P.S. She was not working in the capacity of CMT when the drugs went missing. She did not have access to the drug storage room when it happened.
Not a lawyer or LEO, but worked in hospitals for many years.

First and foremost - As everyone else has said - Lawyer up & Shut up. Let the lawyer do the talking.

Questions/Information to share with lawyer:

How do they know when the drugs went missing, might be a "bookkeeping error" - Has a thorough drug audit all the way back to the supplier inventory been done yet?

Who did have access when the drugs went missing? Don't forget that people working in Housekeeping, Maintenance, IT, Safety, Haz-Mat and other departments may have master keys and codes to all locks, as well as Former Employees.

In addition, question the physical security of the room itself. (IE: While studying blueprints to install an antenna array for a medical telemetry system, I discovered a med room with strong doors and pick resistant locks that was accessible via a dropped ceiling. The oversight was quickly corrected, but it had existed since the last remodeling, three years prior.)

Not wanting to badmouth LEO in general, but there are some bad apples amongst them that tend to get tunnel vision and about the only way anyone can prove themselves innocent is to solve the mystery for them.

Good Luck,
John
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Old 11-11-2010, 11:29 AM
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Short and simple. Lawyer up and shut up.
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Old 11-11-2010, 07:45 PM
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We had some hats printed up years ago- They read "Criminal Defense Lawyer" on the front with the scales. On the back it read "Nobody talks-everybody walks"
I think if the Bar association ever found out who had them made up they would have sanctioned me..er him.
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Old 11-11-2010, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugskipper View Post
If I were she, I'd show up at the 2:00 tomorrow with my lawyer in tow, and ask them to repeat for the record everything they previously told her about the "evidence" against her, how she must submit to the polygraph, what happens after, etc. Then she and her lawyer can decide if the polygraph needs to happen. It's a lot easier to clear a case with a confession than to actually have to investigate it. Not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.
+1. She's in a predicament where she needs a lawyer. The cops may be trying to bully her, or they may be acting in somewhat good faith, based on the "signed affidavits." But, a good lawyer can quickly poke holes in the signed affidavits- my guess is that one of those two people either committed the theft or is covering for whoever did. (I wonder if THEY took polygraphs???)
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Old 11-11-2010, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAJUNLAWYER View Post
We had some hats printed up years ago- They read "Criminal Defense Lawyer" on the front with the scales. On the back it read "Nobody talks-everybody walks"
I think if the Bar association ever found out who had them made up they would have sanctioned me..er him.
There is that story about the engineer about to be executed on a guillotine. They trip the thing, the blade doesn't come down and the engineer looks up and says, I see what your problem is.

Too much talking is like that.

I like that hat!

Szumi
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Old 11-11-2010, 08:00 PM
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A Polygraph Exam can show whatever the Polygraph Operator wishes it to show.
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Old 11-11-2010, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
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+1. She's in a predicament where she needs a lawyer. The cops may be trying to bully her, or they may be acting in somewhat good faith, based on the "signed affidavits." But, a good lawyer can quickly poke holes in the signed affidavits- my guess is that one of those two people either committed the theft or is covering for whoever did. (I wonder if THEY took polygraphs???)
There are no two signed affidavits. That was a bluff. If there were affidavits, they would have already arrested her.

Almost everyone else has said "Lawyer up and shut up," so I won't repeat it. Oops, I guess I just did, sort of.
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Old 11-11-2010, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G.T. Smith View Post
.............so they told her she must be there by 2:00 PM tomorrow or face arrest. That don't sound right to me. They also said that if she fails the examination, she will be arrested on the spot.
I hope everything worked out. I'm sure I'm not the only one that is interested in update.
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Old 11-11-2010, 11:32 PM
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Oh, there might be signed affidavits. Those aren't hard to get. It's called "leaning on someone". There's always someone that did something and wants to make it go away. There's always a confidential informant that'll say whatever.

Is this a small town or something? Seems a lot of work for a non homicide, but then I might be jaded. (I'm used to places where homicides are only notable when the head isn't found, and then still never get solved. Shrug.)

You need to find a real criminal defense attorney. Depending on how the system works in your town, you might want need to bring someone in from out of town.

Anyway, lie detector tests are used to shake people up and leverage them. It's not exactly junk science, but there are reasons why it isn't allowed into evidence.
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Old 11-12-2010, 05:52 AM
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I Vote for getting a lawyer
And if she has'nt lost her job yet she needs to start looking for a new one because it sounds like they r looking to hang her and what little i know (GF is H R person) unless she signed a paper they cant force her to take any type of lie detector and right now her employeer cant talk about her work file just except her attendance and job quality but IF (IF) they get a theft on her then they can talk about it!!
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Old 11-12-2010, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G.T. Smith View Post
Hey everyone,
I have a question to ask of any lawyers or LEO's that wish to chime in.
Here's the deal,
My daughter in law is a CNA and CMT. The health care facility where she is working has found that a box of morphine patches are missing. For some reason, they are pretty much accusing her of the crime. She took a UA a couple of days after it happened and passed it. No drugs in her system. Now almost a month later two people in the apartment complex where she lives, have signed affidavits saying she tried to sell these patches to them. The city police show up today and wanted her to come to the station to take a polygraph examination. She could not find a babysitter so they told her she must be there by 2:00 PM tomorrow or face arrest. That don't sound right to me. They also said that if she fails the examination, she will be arrested on the spot.
My question is, don't they have to serve a court order or something to demand a polygraph exam, or a summons? How can they arrest her without any physical evidence? I really don't think she would do something like this, and she still saying that she did not do it.
There are no cameras in the room where they keep the drugs, and if they were so sure that she did it, wouldn't they simply turn over the incriminating evidence and have her arrested?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you all.
Gordon P.S. She was not working in the capacity of CMT
when the drugs went missing. She did not
have access to the drug storage room when
it happened. I am wondering if they can even force her to take the polygraph without a court order or some kind of real evidence.
No person can be forced to take a polygraph. They are trying to intimidate her into taking it.

Even if she fails the poly, it is inadmissable in court. However, testimony of witnesses who claim she tried to sell them the morphine is strong evidence and MIGHT be enough to support an arrest.

The DA is who decides if the case is strong enough for an arrest.

Always remember: it is legal for cops to lie and they do it all the time to try to bluff people into incriminating themselves. You should assume they are lying anytime their lips are moving. Get her a lawyer immediately, tell her not to speak to ANYONE about the case. If the cops start threatening arrest to try to get her to incriminate herself, have her refuse to open her mouth and tell them to talk to her lawyer.
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Old 11-12-2010, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Szumi View Post
There is that story about the engineer about to be executed on a guillotine. They trip the thing, the blade doesn't come down and the engineer looks up and says, I see what your problem is.

Too much talking is like that.

I like that hat!

Szumi
As they say:

How does a fish get caught?

He has to open his mouth.
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  #33  
Old 11-13-2010, 12:05 PM
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18 year and counting LEO here and I agree with evreybody about not taking the polygraph and you absolutely do not have to submit to it. The polygraph itself is not admissable in court but what happens is when the police give the pre-polygraph questions people often time admit to their crimes before the test is even given, and those admissions are admissable.

I am not so sure I would hire a lawyer just yet and would probably wait for charges to be filed. If they have enough probable cause they will file the charges whether you hire a lawyer or not. It does sound like they are fishing trying to get her to confess and without her confession they have nothing, so save your money and wait for the police to make their move.
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Old 11-13-2010, 08:44 PM
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Well, how's it going for her?
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