I know about Elmer's load of a 170 - 173 grain SWC over 13.5 grains of 2400. I actually have a rather old can of Hercules (the old square tin) 2400 down here. But it's not got enough in it to load much with and I'd rather keep it for a rainy day. Working on my ownsome, I came up with a rather nice loading that seems to work well.

Using the bullet 358429 -- which weighs on my scale 168 grains using Mexican Wheelweights -- and 9.5 grains of Blue Dot seated to a LOA of 1.510 I get about 1,275 fps out of the 5 inch barrel of Phil's old Pre-war. It's as hot as I want to go, and primers look fine enough with easy one-thumb extraction. Primers were CCI small pistol. Not Magnum. Cases were .38 Special Aguila, as I cannot use the longer case and stay safe due to the laws here. (However, .38 Special is .38 Special...and it is legal. Thus my interest in .38/44 loadings in .38 Special casings.)

I was wondering if any of you have any pet .38/44 loads that you would be willing to share with me. It is very hard for me to get powder and primers, so it's tough to "work up" loads. I was fortunate to fall into a considerable supply of Blue Dot, however, and was able to spend time and ammo working up this loading. (It's also hard for me to take Phil's gun anywhere to actually shoot it, but I spent a long day not too long ago shooting off all my testers to come up with this above mentioned load.)

I would appreciate hearing about any other loads that people have worked up and knowing their results. Thanks. In a country where everything is going to Hell in a handbasket, it is reassuring to know that one has a load that has the full reasonable power one would want when in need, but still has the ability to pass through Police and Military Checkpoints without being sent off to jail because of being found in possession of "prohibited ammo".

Hi Calmex,
if you can, call or e-mail Wolfe Publishing and order a back issue of Handloader #243.

There is an outstanding article on the .38/44 by Brian Pearce, and it is full of pressure tested load data for the .38 Special +P and .38/44 HV cartridges. Some of them shown use Blue Dot BTW.

What other powders do you have, or can get your hands on?

Hi there Gun 4 fun.

Thanks for the tip, I will try to get that article.

Powders I have (or can get) right now: a very little of "old 2400". A lot of Bullseye and Red Dot, not good powders for power obviously. I have SOME Unique, and a good supply of Blue Dot. I have a couple tins of IMR 4227.

Bullseye and Red Dot are what is mostly available here, as everything has to be smuggled in and those powders give a good account of themselves in basic reloading of the .38 Special. You can get 2,000 basic 158 grain loads out of a pound, and 2,500 full wadcutter loads. As the price goes up 5 (yes, five) times on smuggled powder, you want the MOST bang-for-your-pesos.

Cheers!

Evenin' Calmex.

I'm looking at the article, and with the powders you mentioned having access to, about the only full power loads that are shown are with Unique. 6.5 grains to be exact under the same bullet you have- the Lyman 358429 (though his weigh 173 grains).
He shows that load giving 1103 fps from his 6.5" .38/44 Outdoorsman.

Thanks for looking. Are there any loads listed using the same bullet with Blue Dot?

I actually shot QUITE a few (well, okay, 250) of them through a variety of guns...a Python marked as .38 Special, a 4-inch 66 made into a 67, and a 19 made into a long 14. Plus Phil's old Pre-war. Velocities from the 4 inch were around 1,240 and the Python (which is an 8 incher) gave us around 1,340.

All revolvers showed us one-thumb ejection/extraction and the primers looked fine. I THINK it is a safe enough load. It certainly beats the hell out of the 130 grain Aguila FMJ load (which is the ONLY thing the Government allows us to buy, although Aguila makes various loadings that would be better).

Due to a strange situation that would probably be better not explained on a Public Forum, I have a rather steady availability to Blue Dot (silly Mexican restrictions notwithstanding). So, I really need to have a load that uses Blue Dot if I am going to be able to have "repeat practice" with powerful loads. I have Unique and some of the other powders, but getting more would be uncertain. Blue Dot is something I can more or less count on for the moment.

Calmex-
I just went and re-checked the article. No data was given for Blue Dot, so that tells me that Pearce didn't think it was a good powder for full power loads or he would have included it. I have been reading his stuff for about 12 years or so, and know that he would added it to his data if it was a good powder for that application.
The main one is always 13.5 gr of 2400 as you know. There's a good reason for that, but in your case you may have to do without it.


I also dug through some of my John Taffin books to see what he showed. No Blue Dot listed in anything I have from him either.

Wish I could help you out better.

I will work on getting MORE 2400. However, Blue Dot is available due to a quirck of fate. But maybe I'll get lucky. Thanks so much for checking for me.

IMR4227 is a good powder for Magnum type loads and there's plenty of data available for it. Back in the 1980's 4227 was a very popular powder for Magnum ammo especially 41 Magnum and 44 Magnum rounds, it's not bad for .357 Magnum ammo either. Since you have a few pounds of it you can work up a good 38/44 load using the starting charge of .357 Magnum data which should be a good 38/44 load.

Good luck finding a good load to defend yourself. Sorry you have so much trouble down there.

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Where I am, it is peaceful. It has been, with the exception of one kidnapping of someone who bit off more than they could chew, pretty much like the before-time here. However, one hears of things happening all around, and it is bothersome. At any rate, I don't see any BIG changes coming until the end of 2012 when the Mexican Government WILL change, and probably the U.S. Government as well -- at least to some degree.

In the meantime, I should test IMR 4227 as you say. I had started with it, but accidently obtained such EXCELLENT results with Blue Dot that I simply stopped experimenting. Afterall, I'm getting pretty good power now.

However, I would not want to load any hotter with the Blue Dot...and there is a chance that using 4227 I will be able to surpass the Blue Dot performance and still keep pressure down. I will investigate this idea.

Might be good to have lots of Blue Dot loads at 1275 to practice with, and some 4227 "stokers" at 1350 or so for actual "defense loads". I will let you know when I get some results how the 4227 loads work out. Thanks!

The Lyman 47th Edition Reloading Handbook lists 7.3 grains of Blue Dot with your #358429. Velocity is 869 fps, pressure is 16,500 CUP from a 4" vented test barrel. They don't list any data for what they call "+P" for any bullet heavier than 158 grains in .38 Special.

They give loads for 8 other powders and all are right in that general area of velocity and pressure, so it makes me think that perhaps they didn't feel there would be much demand for a +P load with a bullet that heavy in .38 Special. It sure seems like there is room to bump it up a little, with due caution.

All I can remember of using Blue Dot years ago was that, like 2400, it needed to be loaded to near maximum to burn cleanly, along with a heavy crimp. A long barrel helps, as well. Good luck.

Dave Scovill lists a 38/44 level load with the 358439 bullet and 7.6 grains Blue Dot in his book "Loading the Peacemaker" He also lists 8.8 grains with the 358156. Speer #11 has a 158 grain bullet +P load using 8.4 grains Blue dot. Based upon those data sources and my own experience loading Blue Dot in .357 magnum I believe that 9.5 grains is too much in .38spl-even for 38/44 loads. However I wouldn't be afraid of 8.5 grains behind the 358429. Frankly, any load that gets that bullet above 900 fps is quite potent.

I wouldn't think that a 168 gr. bullet @1200+ fps would need to be "improved" on much.

I agree, there are several 158gr .357 Magnum loads on the market right now that do no better.

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

You know, that is exactly my opinion too when I stop to think about it. I mean, I look at the 1,350 fps that Elmer's load is supposed to render, and I think to myself "hey, don't get greedy. You're 75 fps under that with smooth extraction and nice primers. Stay where you are." I do NOT want to catastophically destroy a very classic revolver in the interest of a few fps.

I just want the best performance I can get SAFELY with the components I have, and frankly I would have settled for 1,200 fps easily. I worked up carefully from 8.0 grains and when I hit 9.5 grains and over 1,200 fps out of 4 inches, I thought "that's enough!" I have not tested 9.6 and do not really intend to. Unlike my younger IPSC days when I wanted to know what "false top-end" and "real top-end" were, I just wanted 1,200 fps and easy extraction and decent primers. I have it at 1,275 out of 5 inches, and I'll HAPPILY stay right where I am.

All this testing was done in 75 to 80 degree tempuratures. I have not tested in the hot months (yes, those were our cold months), when tempuratures will be 85 to 95 degrees at this altitude...but I do not THINK there will be problems unless some idiot left the shells in the sun (which this idiot here won't do).

But I agree, I don't probably need to "improve" on where I am right now. I just really wanted to know if there was other loads I should be considering. Probably silly of me, really, now that I stop to ponder the idea.

Calmex-
those were my first thoughts too, but since you had asked, I tried to give you the info I had on hand in response to your original question.

A 167-177 grain (which mine weigh) scw at 1200 fps will penetrate like nobody's business and I doubt there ia a man alive who could take a decent hit with one and still want to argue. The same goes for deer, javelina, hogs, etc.

...as in the Tasmanian Devil. "Cats, rats, hogs, dogs, hippoponamous, gazzelles, giraffes...blah, blah, blah". But I agree as well.

If you have a probable need to penetrate auto bodies or other barriers, a real hard cast bullet at those velocities will likely do it. They don't make cars like they used to,..... If the Mexican wheelweights have the usual antimony content, a BHN of something on the order of 18-20 is pretty easily achievable by water quenching the bullets as they are cast. Leading shouldn't be a real problem so long as the diameter of the bullet is .001 or so over the groove dia.
I see your need to approximate .357 ballistics in a .38 sp case, but a full bore .357 is probably excessive for most SD situations. Just my .02.

Car bodies would be a "might happen" but not probable as a civilian living in Mexico. It's not like I'm in the State Patrol. I might play around with taking the load DOWN to around 1,200 fps out of a 4 inch JUST TO MAKE SURE my pressures don't go upwards when we hit the hot months.

Actually, I'm just tickled to HAVE something that I consider "hot enough" for defense use that I can take to the range without risk.

Thank you everyone for all the imput!
Cheers!