Been watching AMC today with some old westerns. In many of these the cowboys constant companion is of course the Winchester lever. Never far from their side, usually transported over distance via horse and scabbard. Even when moving from room to room inside a house they will take the rifle with them.

I have my grandfathers Winchester 30/30 that is a nice gun and I was wondering if .30 cal was the original chambering of the Winchester lever, or were there other calibers used back in the day as well?

Also, given the amount of time these guys spent carrying around the rifles, did slings eventually come into use? Or maybe this is just a movie deal and in real life of that time period the lever guns did have slings?

Btw, this is the first time I've been able to watch the whole Nevada Smith movie. Steve McQueen had quite the adventure in that story. I like when the old guy (can't remember the actor off hand) was loading some cartridges on his portable 'reloading bench' and he tells McQueen to make sure and pick up his brass because those rounds cost 1.5 cents each. 1.5 cents, those were the days I guess.

Nevada Smith is one of my favorite westerns too.

The Winchester .30-30 in the model 1894 actually was a late comer to the winning of the west, although it was THE lever action caliber for much of the "civilized" days from 1895 to the present.

The real lever action winchesters that were part of the cowboy and indian days were the M1873 and the M1892, also a relative late comer. The calibers were: .44-40, .38-40, and .32-20.

The Winchester M1876 in .45-60, .40-60, and several other now obsolete calibers were also participants, as was the M1886 in .45-70 and other big-bore flavors for hunting large and dangerous western game.

Slings on lever actions never seemed to find much favor, although leather lanyards tied to the M1894 saddle carbine loop was used.

My Grandfathers Uncle was a 19th Century Kansas settler and in was involved in the Dalton Gang shooting. He didn't have a Winchester, he had a Spencer. As he served in an Illinois Calvary Troop during the Civil War we always wondered if the Spencer and percussion Remington revolver were bring backs or post War purchases. One of my uncles still has both.

the "old Guy" was Brian Keith

IIRC, the first chamberings were .32-40 and .38-55. The .30-30 came along about a year later.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

I have my G Grandfather's SRC 1894 30-30, that was made in 1895. He took it with him to the Yukon gold fields where he made more than enough to recover from the desperate times of the 1894 depression. He then took this carbine to the gold fields around Wenatche, Wa.. Later it protected his new sawmill from arson during the labor trouble in Tacoma.
The carbine must have been carried in a good scabbard because it still looks great.
It saw plenty of "Old West" use even if it was in the NW instead of the SW.

wasn't the "old guy" supposed to be Sam Colt? Someone told me that a long time ago.

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NRA Endowment member

can anyone tell me why .45 colt wasn't a lever gun chambering back in the day?

"can anyone tell me why .45 colt wasn't a lever gun chambering back in the day?"

The rim on the .45 Colt cartridge was much smaller in the 1800s and the slight bottleneck cartridges (.44-40, .38-40, .32-20) sealed in the chambers better.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

I heard a story that Oliver Winchester would not chamber his rifles in a "Colt" cartridge. Might be BS, but could be true.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

I have heard the same story. There MIGHT be a bit of truth to it as both Mr. Winchester and Col. Colt were vicious competitors. Colt had a prototype rifle that would have been in direct competition to the Winchester. Winchester then came out with a revolver that would directly compete the Colt SAA.

The companies came to an "understanding" for the most part.

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The Last Standing Knight

From the civil war on a lot of the lever guns were in .44 rim fire.

While gun makers then and now don't want to put the competition's name on their product (44 Winchester became 44/40 when Marlin chambered it, 38 S&W became 38 Colt New Police when Colt chambered it and 45 ACP became 45 Auto when Glock chambered it), I can't believe that Winchester would not chamber a gun for Colt ammo just because it was Colt. Colt chambered their pistols in 44 Winchester, 38 Winchester and 32 Winchester.

It was, without a doubt, the rim, and lack thereof, of the 45 Colt. Compare the ejection notch on this modern "solid head" case to the notch on the older "balloon head" case.


Then look at the total lack of a rim on these original 45 Colt loads.


Just nothing for an extractor to grab.

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I always take precautions

i would like to see some 38-40 and 44-40 rounds to compare.

please?

As Col. Colt was dead for at least a decade before the 45 Colt was produced I'd be surprised if Winchester still held much animosity. Extraction problems were reported with the 44 Henry during the Civil War due the hot, dirty chambers. Which is why Winchester pretty much abandoned straight wall ctgs in their lever guns for almost a century. Unless I'm forgetting something beginning with the Winchester 73 all Winchester lever guns were chambered for tapered or bottleneck ctgs.

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I always take precautions

Technically, the correct pieces that would have been carried for the time would be Spencer repeaters, Henry repeaters, early Whitney-Kennedy rifles, Winchester 1866's and a few 1873's. By the late 1870's early to mid 1880's, the buffalo were gone and steel rails brought the law to the west and cut the long cattle drives significantly. Also, with the steel rails, the talking wires cut down on where outlaws could hide- news spread fast.

The original chamberings in rifles were, .56-50 Spencer, .44 Henry Flat, .44 rimfire, .44-40, .38-40 and .32-20.

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Lost it all in a boat accident

Besides having a good time here, I learn things. For many years, I could never understand why the lever actions were not chambered for .45, today I found out.

Slings weren't in vogue in the days of the old west. They slipped them into their saddle scabbards, hence the term "saddle ring carbines".

Here is a 1895 carbine I have it`s in .30 army, better known as 30-40. When I bought this it didnt have a rear sight. A friend had a sight off a officers model springfield that fit without drilling. The gun surprised me with it`s accuracy. This model was popular with the texas rangers. I have the handguard, but it wont fit over the replaced rear sight.

Here is a 1892 carbine I used to own in 44-40. It was built in 1902. It came off a indian reservation in the dakotas.

Here's one that was packed around in a saddle scabbard in Wyoming and Montana so long that the bead on the front sight is nearly worn off.



May have been in the range wars in the late 1890's but the owner would never talk about it.

[QUOTE=john traveler;135779964]Nevada Smith is one of my favorite westerns too.

The book the movie was drawn from, Harold Robbins "The Carpetbaggers" is an excellent read. It was considered to be quite racy in my youth - I had to keep it hidden when I was in school. I always wanted to see a sequel - either movie or book, about the further adventures of Nevada Smith.

Regards,

Dave

thanx, Alpo!

there wasn't much to grab onto on the old 44-40 brass,either.
maybe the slight bottleneck aided extraction enough to do the job.

The slight bottleneck, and the thin case lips of the 44-40 and others expand to seal the chambers well enough to keep all the soot and fouling from black powder cartridges from blowing back into the receiver.

I shoot CAS matches with a 1873 44-40, using BP cartridge. I can go a 12 stage three day match without it jamming up if I had to. I clean it after 6 stages anyway. Just for the heck of it, I tried shooting .45 LC BP cartridges out of my 66 Winchester. What a mess. The straight walled case combined with the thicker brass at the case mouth (which does not expand and seal like a 44-40 case) was a recipe for disaster.

After shooting just one stage, the entire receiver was full of residue and fouling. By the second stage, I had to keep blowing out the lifter with balistol just to keep it from binding up completely! It took a great deal of time to get that rifle clean afterwards. I will never do that again!

Since all cartridges were loaded with black powder way back when, I would guess that the same would happen to their rifles if a straight walled case were used. Combine this with the small rim as shown above, and there is no question why the .45 LC was a pistol cartridge and not used in rifles.


WG840

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Freedom above all else.

Here's my favorite family heirloom. A take down Winchester Model 92 in .44 -40 from, I think, 1912. It shoots great and just "feels" perfect with that shotgun butt and pistol grip. My dad traded a Luger for it in the late 50's.

None of mine are that old, but I love them just the same.......22lr Browning, 30-30, .32 Win. Spec., 45 Colt, and the .45-70 Gov't.

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Go big or stay home

I've got the carbine version of that 94 Classic. I love that gun.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

Well...you cant really learn much about the old west from Hollywood. The way things really used to be and what it takes to sell movies are two very different things. Movie makers are the ones that gave us the fast draw too but it just didnt happen in the old west days. Winchester and Marlin both did offer slings around the 1890's/turn of the century but they were not very popular. You had to send the gun you just ordered and received back to the factory to have the "swivels" installed. They weren't really swivels either, they were little donut like rings. One was welded onto the forend band and the other screwed into the buttstock. Based on the number of them seen today they were extremely rare for sure. The sling itself had big hunky looking metal fish hook things that hooked into the ring. Had to be a serious noise maker. Another Hollywood fallacy I think is interesting but not too many people know about is the fact that the Colt 1873 Peacemaker, although featured in just about every western movie made, was not as owned/carried as the movie folks would have us believe. The Colt Peacemaker was very expensive to buy for the average cowboy and very hard to get because the Federal Govt. bought so many on contract. Unless you were rich {not too many cowboys were as I understand it} only the Army and U.S. Federal Marshall's or reservation police had them. Most cowboys didnt even own a pistol and those that did and many outlaws carried the comparable but much cheaper and more readily available Remington 1879 or 1890 models. Believe it or not even John Wayne used Great Western brand pistols in the movies he made instead of a Colt.

Someone in my family believes they have the gun that (was it Emmett?) Dalton used. Question for Walnutred: Did your Grandfather's Uncle ever talk to you regarding the shooting? I'm curious about what happened.

The original .45 Colt had a copper case with a very small and weak rim, not suitable for repeating rifles.

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dd884
JMHO-YMMV

Back in the 50's my dad traded off his model 86 40-82 because you couldn't get shells for it anymore. Want to know how bad I wish I had that gun now!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, my Grandfathers uncle died a few decades before I was born. I have seen a letter he wrote to my Great Grandfather telling of the even and I think the letter is still in my Grandmothers trunk. There were actually several letters and a picture of him and his family in front of a sod house. He had served with Company F, 6th Ill Cav. in the Civil War and we like to think that is where he acquired the Spencer. However it's just as likely he purchased it from Bannermans or Sears.

One advantage of a sling on a levergun is that unlike a bolt action it won't dig into your back no matter what side it is laying on.

This is one of two Model 1892's I have, both of which are in .32 W.C.F. caliber. This one was made in 1914. It is an excellent shooter also.

No, the character's name is listed as Jonas Cord Sr. on the IMDB character page. Several other actors played the same character in other movies based on "The Carpetbaggers".

Jonas Cord Sr. (Character)

Folks, thank you all for the history lessons, and with pictures, too!
I guess I'm spoiled, or something. I always put slings on every long-gun I've ever had. Probably had something to do with carrying an M14 around all day. TACC1

Do yourself a favor, go to Wal-mart and spend $5 and pickup a copy of Winchester 73 with Jimmy Stewart. It just might have you looking for one of these Uberti clones.

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Rolan Kraps
Gainesville, Ga

Although the 30-30 (or the 30 Winchester Centre Fire cartridge (WCF) as it was originally known) was not the original caliber of the Model 1894 Winchester, it has the distinction of being the very first sporting cartridge to be loaded with the new-fangled smokeless powder. That would have earned it its place in history, even if it had not been successful. However it became an enormous success. In fact it appeared in 1895, one year after the 1894 was introduced. For a rifle cartridge to still be in production in large numbers 116 years after it first appeared is quite amazing. And here in France it is still cheap to buy.

Winchester lever action rifles in a number of chamberings had been around since Oliver Winchester bought the New Haven Arms Company and changed its name to Winchester Repeating Arms company in 1866, the year he brought out the Model 1866. Prior to this the Henry lever action rifle had been in production since 1860, nearly all Henrys being brass framed giving them their name Henry Yellow Boy, although a very small number were iron framed. In fact some of the early Winchester 1866 rifles were also brass framed.

Several model changes took place over the following years, but it was John Moses Browning's design for the legendary Model 1894 that gave us the Winchester that most of us know. It seems that a subtle change of name to Model 94 (2 digits instead of 4) took place in 1964, when new production techniques were introduced, leading to what was regarded as an inferior rifle. Over 6 million 94s were made between 1894 and 2006, when the US Repeating Arms Company finally closed its doors. Production of the Model 70 bolt action rifle also ceased.

It was nice to see that FN Herstal, Belgium, a producer of Browning pistols and shotguns (and probably Winchester shotguns) for many years, has now re- started production of both rifles. They had a long standing relationship with John Moses Browning ( going back to 1897) and made a number of his guns under licence. He turned to them when Winchester refused to produce one of his designs, the Auto 5 shotgun, which went on to sell 5 million. In fact it was whilst he was visiting the FN factory in 1926 that Browning died. It seems appropriate that if production is to continue, it should be by a company trusted by the designer. The legend continues ...

I have three Model 94s, obviously a 30-30, plus a .44 Rem Mag and a .444 Marlin, plus a Model 9422 (not a real 94, but part of the family). No-one in my club will fire the 444. They all develop mysterious shoulder complaints when I produce it and ask who wants to have a go. I must admit it has a bit of a kick.

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Kill it, cook it, eat it.

One poster seems confused about the "saddle ring" on some carbines. A short leather loop could be tied onto it to sling the carbine from the saddle pommel.

I wouldn't have done it. The conventional saddle scabbard would protect the arm much better.

Winchester did develop prototype revolvers and I think that one was designed by Hugo Borchardt!

Colt stopped production of their Burgess rifle on seeing the Winchester prototypes. The arrangement was that Colt would make revolvers, and leave rifles to Winchester.

I disagree with the poster who said that civilians could seldom get Colt SAA revolvers. Colt had the ability to make more than needed for US Govt. orders, and some Indian police had Remingtons, anyway. Colt also exported these to other countries. At one time, both .44-40 and .45 Colt ammo was stocked by British supply depots in India, and Lt. Col. Vincent Fosbery, VC said that the .44-40 was the best stopper of any sidearm that he saw used along the Afghan frontier.(He later invented the Webley-Fosbery automatic revolver.)

The SAA sold so well in Britain and the Empire that it was chambered in .450, .455, and .476 calibers. If you read the original, "King Solomon's Mines", you'll see that the author (a veteran of the Second Zulu War) armed his characters with .45 Colt SAA revolvers. The long arms were also very authentic. I have seen ads for Colts in South African publications of the dayl (Sir Henry Rider Haggard really said that the Colt's were for "the heavier pattern of cartridge", but at the time, only the .44-40 and .45 Colt were offered.)

Wyatt Earp, Bat Masterson, and others used these guns and Masterson ordered several directly from Colt. Earp also had at least one S&W .44.

That said, the poster is correct that ordinary cowboys often lacked the money for a new Colt. But they were only a small number of people living then!

Also, his post may be valid to a large degree IF one is thinking only of the very first years of production of the SAA.

T-Star

T-Star, you probably know a lot more about these Winchesters that I do but I always thought the saddle ring was to tie the rifle into the scabbard to keep it in in case of a fall or something.

Here are my two. Both have some problems though. The 1894 in .32-40 is a 1916 rifle but the barrel is devoid of finish. Doesn't look stripped but just doesn't have any anywhere.

The 1892 is in .25-20 and is a 1899 rifle but the metal had been refinished at some time and the forestock has a crack in it.

Attached Images

	Winchester18942.jpg (39.0 KB, 50 views)
	WinchesterM1892.jpg (10.4 KB, 37 views)
	Winchester1894.jpg (20.3 KB, 43 views)

Here's yet another early Model 1892, this one from 1896 and chambered for .32-20.

A few more fun ol' Winchesters from around here. All are still used. The Model 1892 .32-20 saddle-ring carbine quite a lot.

A .45-90 Model 1886 produced in 1887.



A Model 94 Carbine from 1941 and chambered for .32 Special



A Model 1895 .405 with a 1904 production date.