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01-23-2011, 10:50 AM
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S&W 45 acp without head space shoulder?
I visit several forums for my varied interest. On another forum a poster said that S&W does not use a shoulder in the cylinder to head space anymore on thier 45 acp revolvers. You have to use half or full moon clips to head space the cartridges. If you don't the cartridges will slide to far forward in the cylinder and the firing pin will not fire these cartridges.
Is this true????
Thanks, John
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01-23-2011, 11:02 AM
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I can't answer your specific question as the newest 45 ACP revolver I have is from 1988 (intro of the 625). If it is true then it's another sad example of S&W cutting manufacturing corners to reduce production cost, without lowering price.
Dave
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01-23-2011, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jspick
I visit several forums for my varied interest. On another forum a poster said that S&W does not use a shoulder in the cylinder to head space anymore on thier 45 acp revolvers. You have to use half or full moon clips to head space the cartridges. If you don't the cartridges will slide to far forward in the cylinder and the firing pin will not fire these cartridges.
Is this true????
Thanks, John
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John - I'll stick my neck out and say that some or most cartriges will fire BUT the moon clips eliminate you having to poke the empties out with a dowel or screwdriver or whatever.
IF the specific cylinder hole is headspaced too deep then you'll get a no fire situation.
Let's see how others respond.
I've always used the clips so I have no personal experience on my 25's.
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01-23-2011, 11:39 AM
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I have a 610-3 10mm and always use moonclips. I have no issue with using them, and carry 3 loaded clips in holders on my belt when I carry that revolver. I think due to possible case length variations you are better off using the clips.
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01-23-2011, 12:06 PM
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my 22 thunder ranch appears to allow headspace on case mouth as I have on a bunch of occaisions shot acp ammo without clips and they fired fine. also a good shake of the gun after opening and the cases save one or twodrop right out- a quick flick of the case rim with a fingernail removes the others
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01-23-2011, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave T
If it is true then it's another sad example of S&W cutting manufacturing corners to reduce production cost, without lowering price.
Dave
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While I agree that eliminating the headspace shoulder is not a good idea ( it also eliminates or shortens the throat) I would like to point out that in times of rising prices manufacturing shortcuts may not resort in lowering the price BUT they may well let a company keep prices where they are and not have to raise them.
While we tradationalists bemoan the changes we see that cheapen a product in our eyes, and say we would gladly pay the extra cost of making them like they used to, the truth is that any company can not stay in business selling only to the die hard collectors etc. Most of S&W's customers buy on price - I see it everytime I go to the local gun shop.
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01-23-2011, 01:31 PM
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I may be mistaken, and I am certainly open to correction by those who have observed and measured differently, but I believe that the difference between the 1917 and the 22 and 25 on the one hand, and various 625 and other new revolvers on the other, is that S&W doesn't really take the shoulder seriously on the 625 and other new revolvers. They certainly disavow any responsibility for it in their instructions. That said, they still put a shoulder in, and it is usually close enough to correct that the cartridges will fire even without a moon clip. Note use of the word "usually." The older guns, on the other hand, are intended to work without moon clips, if you don't mind pulling the empties out yourself.
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01-23-2011, 01:54 PM
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I have a 625-6 .45ACP Mountain Gun. I shoot it a lot without using the clips. I have no problems with ignition and it has sharply defined shoulders in all 6 charge holes.
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01-23-2011, 02:33 PM
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It's clear that not every 625 will fire reliably without the use of moonclips. Why some will not fire without the moonclips is not entirely clear, at least to me. Some say that those marked "Model of 1988" on the barrel were the downfall. These were made back in the days of the hammer mounted firing pin. I have three 625-4s (hammer mounted firing pins) and they all function properly. I do know that many of the newer models with the frame mounted firing pin won't fire reliably without moonclips. Many shooters compromise the strength of the mainspring and then we have California compliant firing pins which make things even more complicated. Based on my experiences, I think it's safe to say that S&W could make them all fire without the moonclips IF THEY WANTED TO DO IT. I think it's just too much trouble and headache for them to do it the right way.
Kind of reminds me of my 940, but that's a different story...
Dave Sinko
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01-23-2011, 03:17 PM
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There are a number of factors that determine if the 45 ACP revolver will fire with or without moonclips. One of which is the crimp on the cartridge mouth. If you compete as I do, a more tapered crimp is preferred due to the fact that the cartridge will slide into the charge hole easier. The downside, is that the cartridge mouth can slightly slip past the cylinder shoulder and possibly misfire if you shoot without moonclips. Not necessarily S&W's fault. If you look at the cylinder of the new Governor from S&W, this gun fires a .410, 45 LC and 45 ACP. There is no shoulder inside and you must use moonclips for 45 ACP. The lack of the shoulder makes the gun more versatile for those who have one. The only way to determine this for sure is to measure and examine all the 45 ACP cylinders and perform a test using factory ammo and various types of reloads. This type of data would show whether or not S&W is guilty of a mass 45 ACP conspiracy or information from the internet is more opinion than fact.
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01-24-2011, 09:12 AM
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I had a model 625-8 that would not fire without moon clips but my 25-2 does. I never shoot factory ammo though. I have a model 22-4 that I never tried without moon clips. I also use auto-rim reloads.
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01-24-2011, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jspick
I visit several forums for my varied interest. On another forum a poster said that S&W does not use a shoulder in the cylinder to head space anymore on thier 45 acp revolvers. You have to use half or full moon clips to head space the cartridges. If you don't the cartridges will slide to far forward in the cylinder and the firing pin will not fire these cartridges.
Is this true????
Thanks, John
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My 625-8 has chambers cut with the shoulder, and will fire w/o the clips, I know because I bought it new, and good old S&W forgot to put the clips in the box. I fired several hundred rounds the first week or so until I got clips.
I recommend and use RIMZ plastic clips for all my shooting with the 625, but it is a range (target) gun. They are super easy to load and unload.
If you are using for self defense, use steel.
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01-24-2011, 09:12 PM
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Well let me start by saying my faith in S&W has dimishied alot over the past 5 days. 1st after saving for several months to puchase a 625 to shoot ipda matches(tired of the auto's) i picked it up friday. Brand new 625-8 JM model. went to the range sunday with plenty of quality ammo. First ammo winchester 2 out of 6 fired without the moon clips, ok no problem i say to myself, 6 with moon ok, 6 more ok, now then things went to h--l. the next cylinder full would hardly rotate and this after only 18 rounds. let it cool and inspected for debris, powder residue but nothing abnormal, 6 more cylinder had to be helped around, after that the cylinder would hardly open or close. It is on the way back to Smith right now. Has anyone had this problem before, if so how long did it take to get your firearm back. Thanks
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01-24-2011, 09:32 PM
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My 12/2010 625-8 JM will shoot Federal Champion without moon clips, Winchester white box only 50% fire.
625 at gunsmith now for action job. trigger was at least 12 lbs
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01-24-2011, 10:06 PM
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I have a 625-6 Model of 1989 (5" in .45 ACP) and a 625-8 JM Special (4" in .45 ACP). One will fire with out clips and one is only reliable with clips.
I do NOT consider this a problem. I had no more intention of firing .45 ACP without clips than I do my 1911's. I, too, use RIMZ Polymer clips for general range use and steel ones for "business use".
I also shoot Auto Rim loaded cases and is my preference for general range use as well as heavy bullet loads (NOE mould for the Lyman 454424 bullet).
I will say this - BOTH of my 625's are some of the best shooting revolvers I have ever owned (and I have owned a few). They are my most shot revolvers.
I replaced the firing pins with Apex Tactical Service firing pins:
https://apextactical.com/store/produ....php?pid4.html
I also replaced the mainspring and trigger return spring with a Jerry Miculek set:
MIC-625 - $16.95 : Bang Inc., If it goes bang, we shoot it!
I tuned the trigger pull to 9.0 lbs double action and 3.0 lbs single action. This is my preference for revolvers that MUST fire on demand.
I have early Smith's as well as late Smith's. They are all excellent in good examples and "not so much" in poor examples (that has been the state of affairs in all manufactured items since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution). The worst period in Smith's history was when they were owned by the British. I believe we are in the GOOD OLD DAYS, NOW!!
Dale53
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01-24-2011, 10:44 PM
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The headspace shoulder is still there. In fact Smith invented the idea with the original 1917. The earlier versions of the COLT 1917 were drilled straight through and the round would drop straight through without the moon clip. Now the round may go in to far if trimmed too short, or if to much crimp is put on a reload. You can also fire the 45 GAP round if using moon clips, but it is too short by itself.
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Tags
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1911, 45acp, 610, 940, cartridge, colt, crimp, gunsmith, model 625, mountain gun, polymer, s&w, screwdriver, tactical, winchester |
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