I bought a box of Mt. Baldy Bullet Co.'s 250gr Keith's. They are BHN 11, and sized .430". I loaded up 50 of them last week over 9.5gr of Unique, which should run a little over 1,000 fps or so. To make a long story short, they leaded the first 1.5-2" of the barrel pretty badly. I assume that it is gas cutting as I have read that excessive velocity causes leading the entire bore length.

I have since found out that older Model 29's have .432" chamber mouths, or throats, whatever you want to call them. So these bullets are smaller than the chamber mouths. I had read that the softer lead bullets would obturate to fit the hole, but apparently this did not happen.

So I am curious if there is anything I can do with these and not have them lead the bore? Shoot them slower, or maybe with more power? I have no idea. Brian Pearce has an article in Handloader Magazine on loading for the Model 29, and he mentions that he uses the BHN 8-10 range bullets in his targets loads that are below 1,000fps, and uses BHN 15-18 range bullets in the mid-range loading that I tried. So would shooting these over Bullseye in the 870fps range help?

Or should I give them to a friend and buy some properly sized bullets LOL?

Thanks,

Jared

Are you getting any lead fouling in the chambers too?

Gas cutting of bullets isn't really from velocity, it's from poor bullet fit. If the bullet is too small the gas escapes around the bullet melting the lead off as it goes.

You might try upping the pressure, if you can do so safely, to see if the bullets will obturate and seal the chambers.

Jared take one of those bullets & drop it in a chamber. If it falls through it's too small. If you have to beat it through it's too large. If it hangs in the cylinder & you can push it on through with a pencil it's 'bout right.

Leading in the first part of the barrel is often cause by a choke there from the frame threads squeezing the barrel.

11 BHN is a very good hardness for the load you're using. Just remember, fit is very, very important when dealing with cast bullets in a sixgun.

I shoot these with full loads @ 12 BHN in my 44.

The MiHec 44-258-Keith


The Lyman 429421

__________________
Joshua 1:9

"Are you getting any lead fouling in the chambers too?"

If I recall, there was not much, a couple passes with a bronze brush in a couple of the chambers and it was gone. The majority of the leading was in the first 1.5-2" of the barrel.

"Jared take one of those bullets & drop it in a chamber. If it falls through it's too small. If you have to beat it through it's too large. If it hangs in the cylinder & you can push it on through with a pencil it's 'bout right."

I just checked, they fall right through, no force required. So seeing how these bullets are obviously too small, can they be used without leading? Or should I just give them to a friend and have him melt them and make something else out of them.

Jared

I think you are getting the right idea - they are too small. You might try a few loaded on the safe heavy end and see if it helps. You might also try this idea with a slower burning powder like say, 2400 if you have it. But most likely you should trade them to a friend and get the correct ones for your gun.

You did not say which 29 version you have but as you say many are 432 or even worse. You should try to determine what your gun measures. Pin/Plug gauges work best or try slugging a couple of cylinder mouths with an oversize lead bullet (I used to use round balls as they are usually pure lead and are easy to drive through the cylinder.) I have encountered older M29's where the throats are not all matching running from .431 to .434 all in one gun.

Your new bullets should be a very snug fit in the cylinder throats and then that load should work very well for you as a medium power 44 load (I shoot it too.)

Cast bullets are more particular to shoot than jacketed but once you figure it out they are cheaper and perform very well.

Ward

"You did not say which 29 version you have"

It's a Model 29 no dash, shipped in early 1961.

Jared

My pre-29 4" has throats that all measure .432 and I shoot .432 bullets in it with good results and no leading. Perhaps .432 is what you need...

Ward

Interesting thread. Just checked my 29-2. .431 sized bullets fall right through. This is my old silhouette gun that was mostly fed with 240 FMJ bullets back in the day.
It is certainly in need of a tune up.
I wonder if S&W could replace the cylinder with a better one?

__________________
-jwk-
US Army '72-'95

I special ordered some Mt. Baldy 250gr Keith's, sized .432". Hopefully these will be the ticket.

Jared

Jacketed bullets usually shoot well even if the cylinder throats are oversized and they simply do not lead. Once you become aware of what your revolver needs for size and then match your hardness to your load velocity, you will likely be quite happy with your results. Once you have everything working correctly you should be able to shoot MANY rounds with no noticeable amount of leading.

Ward

I shoot a lot of Berry's plated bullets in 9mm and .45. Never tried them in revolvers.
As I normally load .44 magnum to 1100-1150 f/s am thinking about giving them a try.

__________________
-jwk-
US Army '72-'95

Most of my shooting with the 44 mags is in the 1,000 to 1100 fps area. It is simply more fun! It is also easier on the hands and wrists as well as the gun itself.

I have never played with the Berry's, does it take a crimp well?

Ward

Ward, Berry's have no cannelure, as you probably know already.
It's easy to overcrimp, even with a taper crimp, and risk damaging the plating. I loaded a quantity of standard-level .38 Special with them, got inconsistent points of impact (I knew I wasn't THAT bad a shot), and got one bullet that worked forward from recoil, tying up the gun. The recovered bullet definitely showed a crimp line. I once tried some in a 1911, though, and they worked out OK.

Gene

Becasue a jacketed bullet doesn't upset or obturate as it leaves the cyl throats. That is why you need to match the lead bullet dia to the cyl throat dia for best accuracy & least leading. If your cyl is 0.432", then running a 0.432" dia bullet will work better, or run a smaller gas checked bullet works fine to.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

May help you and it may not. Hardness of the metal and how hard you push the bullet are also determining factors, as others have already mentioned. I always find, with the 44 Magnum, that pushing things a little harder than we might prefer for a target load is the key to cutting down on leading.

Before you load a bunch of cartridges with your special-order .432" bullets, make a few test loads to be sure they will seat in your chambers. It's likely they will, without issue, and you will be OK, but I have S&W 44 Magnums with big throats that will not accept a .432" cast bullet seated in ordinary Remington and Winchester cases.

You have to be careful with the crimp. Even slight overcrimping can sometimes create a bulge, barely noticeable, that prevents the cartridge from chambering. (For this reason, overall length of the case has to be carefully controlled.) And sometimes the chambers can just be too small at the front for .432" (and .433") bullets. It seems unlikely to have a combination of large throats and a "small" diameter at the front end of the chamber, but "small" is not small, as in out of spec, and it does happen. I have never seen an older S&W that wouldn't take a .431" bullet, but sometimes .432" and .433" are just too big.

I have used a lot of oversized cast bullets in my S&W 44 Magnums and, truth be told, I usually find the surest cure for leading is to lean on the powder charge a little. My mid-range 44 loads with any powder, and any powder charge, are generally a nuisance, but the leading problem is much less severe as soon as I switch to Nr. 2400 and crank things up. With good quality cast bullets in the 250-275 gr weight range, I can usually minimize leading with an 18 - 18.5 gr charge of 2400. It's a little more than I want for a target load, but it is much cleaner than Unique, 231, HS-6, etc.

A read of what Elmer had to say about bullets in 1976 may be in order too. http://www.elmerkeithshoot.org/GA/19...un_Bullets.pdf

Paul5388,

Great article by Elmer Keith! Interestingly, he likes .429" bullets in the .44 Special and Magnum. Wow, I would think those would lead like crazy? He dislikes jacketed bullets, mentions that they can wear out a forcing cone in as little as 5,000 rounds.

Jared

Elmer also had a dislike for gas checked bullets for much the same reason he disliked jacketed bullets in revolvers. He did concede the use of jacketed bullets in auto loaders, but that was mainly due to less feeding problems.

I thought he presented a pretty clear rationale for the driving bands being the size he designed.

Paul I think Mr. Keith had less trouble simply because he used bullets which were soft by our standards. I held a couple of his sixguns & noticed no “lead splash” around the forcing cone or crown. Being a guest I didn’t ask to look down the barrel. HEE HEE

__________________
Joshua 1:9

Lynn, I think you're right about the hardness of his "hard 1 to 10" bullets, but he also emphasized fit as a cure for leading. I've been reading some of his old articles on this site Elmer Keith Memorial Website|Guns and Ammo Archives and rediscovered why I always appreciated his writing.

A lot of good stuff there.

__________________
Joshua 1:9

You might want to run that 9.5gr Unique across a chrono. You might find it a bit warmish.

I just tested 8.8gr behind a Lee tumble lube 240 this past Saturday and got 1065 on average out of my 6.5" 629 Classic.

It's a fun and accurate load.

This thread reminds me of the problem I had with my Ruger GP100. Bullets were sized according to throat diameter....358". I used HS-6 and the Lyman 358421 bullet using wheel weights a 2% tin. Accuracy was good but I got leading just forward of the forcing cone just into the rifling for about 1/2"-1". Turns out the barrel to frame junction was constricted so in essence even though the bullet was of the proper size it was being resized as it passed through where the barrel was screwed into the frame. Cure?-fire lapping.

As for the small bullets, I had to send my mold off and get the bands enlarged so they fell from the mold .002-.003" more so I could size them .432" on my M29-3. My throats as well are .432" and my mold dropped bullets at .430" maximum regardless the alloy. Now, using ww's they drop at .435" and I have a .432" die and there is no longer leading at the muzzle or forcing cone area. Fortunately, there is no restriction problem with the M29-3 I just didn't have the proper size mold and size die early on.