Ok gents, one more day until Daughter arrives and sets me up in the pic business. However, I just found a .32wcf,Nickel,6" Bbl.,Walnut plain grips, mushroom extractor rod, fixed sights, 5screw. Serial #92870 on butt, bbl. flat, and cylinder. Not on grips though. Double line bbl. address and patent line:

SMITH & WESSONSPRINGFIELDMASSUSAPATTENDED
OCT801DEC1701FEB0608SEPT1409DEC2914

Small S&W emblem on left side just back of triggerguard on sideplate.

Old thing is tight as a tick, grips in good shape (checkered no medallions). Finish is rough (about 50% I would estimate.

Owner tells me it is a 32-20 and will chamber same.

What is this, (1905 4th?) and is is worth $325?

Thanks in advance.

regards

Bill

Bill,
In my opinion with the action being tight it could be worth the $325. Of course I would have to try a little negotiation on price but I do that on every gun I buy. My books are in the shop but the 32WCF stamping is pre '21-'22, after that they went to the 32-20 designation. No medalion grips are either from the 1900-1910 era if they have concave tops or from the 20s if they have convex tops. Teens would have had goldtone medalions.
I will go out to the shop after a while if no one else chimes in with the model and look it up. I have 3 32-20s and love shooting them. I think you will too.
Larry

Larry, appreciate the info. The bore is just great, lockup really tight. The chambers have "double ring" indicating that 32 longs were fired in it (as so many did). The mechanics are great, it just looks kinda awful. Absolutely no end shake. Just an interesting old revolver. I have a Colt Army Special in 32-20 that is a hoot. Ya'll help me over the hump of one more gotta have it!!!!

Thanks and regards

Bill

Bill,
Just went out to the shop and yes that one is a 1905 4th change. 32-20 s/n range went from 65701 to 144684 and was produced from 1915 -1940.
Larry

Thanks Larry. I can find no N on the cylinder or the grip frame under the stocks. I think I remember that these did not always carry a N or N in a circle for the factory nickel designation during this time frame. Can anyone help me on this area?

Thanks

Bill

If you go out and look in this section of the forum, you'll find a long running thread on .32-20s. A lot of information, much of which will boggle your mind and probably more than you ever want to read. But it might just be the best information source on any single caliber. Its now book length and growing.

Its also maybe important to know most 32-20 owners end up reloading for them because of the high price of ammo. Its getting kind of scarce, and when you find a retailer has it, most likely its new stock that is prohibitively expensive. But just for fun, when traveling stop at the little out of the way gun shops. Some times they have it and its still priced at what it was 20 years ago! Also attend gun shows in small towns. Sometimes good ole boys have some and bring it along to dump. Its what happened at the OGCA show last month. I found 2 boxes for $20 a box. Anywhere else I'd be lucky to find one box for my $40.

Its also been brought out that you can chamber and fire .32 S&W ammo in the guns. There's now pressure problems, with the shorts and longs being pretty much interchangeable and having about the same ballastics. Yes, you may swell the cases just a bit, and may even get sticky extraction. Big deal. I found some of those last month for $10 a box (it wasn't full, 2 were missing.)

No the nickel marking, look on the underside of the barrel. They machine a flat there for the ejector rod to clear and lock. Usually you have the serial number repeated, but toward the front of the gun sometimes you'll see the tiny letter "B" stamped. "B" stood for a blue gun. Often you don't see an "N" for nickel, but if you've got a nickel gun with the "B", you can be pretty sure its been refinished.

The .32-20 Hand Ejector Thread

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Dick Burg

Bill,
There were a few things that Smith did on nickel guns that were somewhat unique to there nickel process. Hammer and trigger should show case hardening (colors). Extracter star should be blue and I think the ejector knob should also be blue. There should be no smearing of the lettering on the barrel or frame. Quickest clues are trigger, hammer and smearing. A couple of mine have no N on them but I'm pretty sure they are original Smith nickel from those clues. Hope this helps.
Larry

Larry, the ejector star is blue, hammer and trigger casehardened. However, the mushroom extractor knob is nickel. It is also nickel on my 1905 4th in .38 spl. This gun would make a fine mate to my Grandfathers Colt Army Special he carried on duty as a Sgt. on the Pittsburgh, Pa. Police Force. I have this weapon and about 200 rounds of 32-20 Remington 100 gr. modern ammo. I assume this would be safe to shoot in the Smith. It has not bothered the Colt at all. I think this cylinders were heat treated about 1921 or so and I think this one is after that date.

Thanks

Bill

Bill, I have a 4" nickel 91555 from 8/1920 and a 6" blue 108534 from 8/1922.

I paid $700 for the nickel in 2005 and $500 for the blue in 2005. These were auction prices so you have to add in the "bidding war" factor.

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James Redfield
LM #497

"The chambers have "double ring" indicating that 32 longs were fired in it (as so many did)."

The .32-20 is a (slight) bottlenecked cartridge. Each chamber should have two "rings" in it.

__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Thats interesting Muley. You are correct Sir. With a taper of this tiny amount would the cartridge headspace on the shoulder as well as the rim or just the rim? The reason I ask is that I have heard of a number of folks shooting the 32 longs. I am not familiar with the .32 long but I understand there was case rupture often when using these in 32-20 chambered weapons of any mfg. I wonder what problems this could cause in this revolver, if any in the chamber area?

regards

Bill

As Muley Gil points out the .32-20 is nominally a bottle necked cartridge. The rear, somewhat shadowy, ring you see is the shoulder in the chamber. This has nothing to do with the gun ever having been shot with .32 S&W Long, or other cartridge. The shoulder is actually behind where the mouth of the .32 S&W Long would fall. It does not correspond to any other .32 caliber cartridge!

The story that it was common for people to shoot other cartridges in .32-20s is just that, a story. Someone tells this tale on the forum, and within weeks it has been repeated so often that by now everyone repeats it as though this was more common than shooting the correct cartridge! While this was, no doubt, done, most would have shot the correct cartridge, probably exclusively. At a time, not that many years ago, .32-20 sold in the same price range as other cartridges, and was just as common. There was no rational reason to have done this. It is only in the past few years that .32-20 ammunition has become a scarce and expensive commodity. Clear into the 1980s .32-20 was easily found and only slightly more expensive than .38 Spl or .357 Magnum.

The cartridge headspaces on the rim. On factory ammunition it is common for the case shoulder to be 1/16" behind the chamber shoulder. The shoulder angle is 5 degrees 42 minutes, much too flat to headspace on. This is even flatter than the extremely long shoulder on the Holland's Super .30 (.300 H&H Magnum).

I said earlier that the cartridge is nominally bottle necked. While the .32-20 chamber is always bottle necked this has not always been the case with .32-20 ammunition. Earlier, possibly into the 1930s, at least some .32-20 ammunition was made with a straight-tapered case, with absolutely no indication of a shoulder. At least into the 1960s Lyman, and possibly others, made .32-20 reloading dies which re-sized the case to the straight-taper, no-shoulder shape. Before anyone is tempted to challenge this, I own a set of Lyman dies purchased new in 1960 or 1961 which have no shoulder, and several black powder, lead bullet cartridges in my collection, likewise with no shoulder. Straight-taper .32-20 cartridges are also pictured in Suydam.

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Gunsmithing since 1961

Thanks ALK. That is very informative info and I appreciate it. This thread started out as a what is it? Value? All info pertaining to 32-20 cal. has been helpful. I reload for many calibers, but never the 32-20. All my pistol calibers have been straight wall cartridges. With the minor "shoulder" on the cartridge (32-20) does one need to lube cases before loading? Or can you use carbide dies and just "get after it"?

Thanks

Bill

There are no carbide dies available, so that is easy. You will see a lot of comments posted about how hard to load the .32-20 is, how delicate the cases are, etc. You can bet that whoever posts these is simply parroting what he has read on an internet forum, and has not extensively loaded the cartridge. No one who has loaded it finds it be a particular problem, unless you are of the "slam-bang" type who values speed over quality.

If you already reload then this will be no problem. Buy a good set of dies, RCBS or Redding, and start this one too. I recommend cast bullets sized .313-314. I prefer Remington cases, simply because they are the only ones that are full length. 1.315". Winchester and Star Line are both 1.275". All are good, just personal preference.

Another recommendation is primers. Many years ago I saw a recommendation to always use Small Rifle primers in this cartridge, I believe it was from Elmer Keith, I just wish I could find it again! The .32-20 does have a tendency to squib and leave bullets stuck in the barrel, you often will see a .32-20 revolver with a bulged/ringed barrel from this. Using the Small Rifle seems to prevent squibs. In loading/shooting thousands of rounds of .32-20 in several revolvers over the past 50years I have never had a squib, seems to work. This is a rifle cartridge afterall!

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Gunsmithing since 1961

Gents, here are a coupla of pics of this old timer. Is it worth $350 in your opinion. Again, all mechanics are great on this 32-20.

Thanks in advance for you help.

Regards

Bill

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I have one myself, a 1905 4th change that was returned to the factory at some point and the barrel, ejector rod and stocks were changed. Mine is also tight and has clean chambers and bore. I put twenty rounds through it last weekend, it is a hoot to shoot. I did not buy mine, rather traded a Ruger standard .22 pistol even up for it. I was advised against refinishing it, so I placed it in the classifieds but got no interest to speak of. I will likely have mine nickeled and add stag stocks to it if I keep it. It should last another 100 years.

Bill,

With the typical "Nickel Mange" this example shows, you have to decide what is worth to you strictly as a shooter. I had one in similar condition about 25 years ago (paid a lot less for it then, of course ) and wasn't shooting it enough to be worth keeping and was glad to get my money back out of it. On the other hand, if I had been shooting it a lot, I could have put up with the finish, or would have had it stripped and refinished in a matte blue. Values of project/shooter grade guns are very subjective, but if you think you will get that much enjoyment out of it, the price is your call. As a prior poster mentioned, I would at least try to bargain the guy down a bit on general principles. Remember, the foregoing free advice is worth almost as much as you paid for it!

Froggie

Just your opinion, and you're entitled to it. I'd even agree if you added in the part about trimming your cases. You didn't. If you intermix cases, with some long and some short, you'll crumple cases. Its not internet myth, its fact. The long and skinny cases aren't strong enough to withstand the abuse. Trim your cases, or reset your seating die when you switch brands of brass.

The squib loads are caused by the high capacity cases and small powder charges. Difficult to ignite powders don't work well with a lot of open space in the cartridge case. S&W long action guns have a pretty solid hammer fall. At least in single action. You can also switch to magnum pistol primers, or seek out an easy to ignite powder to cut down any chances of poor ignition.

As a group, .32-20s have a reputation for having bad bores. Always check that before purchase. I'm just going to guess its caused by some old ammo either being corrosive primed, or being black powder ammo from long ago (remember, its an 1800s round). Coupled with poor or non-existent cleaning habits, you get some rough bores. Just an added interest fact, its much more commonly seen on low serial number guns than high numbers. Hence the conjecture about early ammo. Look and see for yourself. Look at .32-20s with serials below maybe 50,000 and then those above maybe 120,000. Huge difference in quality of the bore.

If you have interest in the caliber, make it a habit to inspect the guns you see in the caliber. It doesn't cost anything!

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Dick Burg

RBurg,

Not opinion, experience with the cartridge. If you read what I posted you would have seen I mentioned the lengths of various cases. I Notice you do not mention having any experience loading .32-20, which leads me to believe you are making what amount to as generic comments couched as criticism.

As I mentioned, I have been shooting the cartridge for 50 years, many thousands of rounds since this is one of my favorites. How many rounds/years experience do you have with it?

I DID NOT say the cartridge was not thinner, only that a reasonable careful loader will have no trouble with it!

I DID NOT mention trimming cases because I was not giving a "Basic Reloading Primer"! Anyone who does not understand this most basic concept has no business reloading until they do.

Can a case be crushed during sizing, YES, if you are inattentive and strike the bottom of the die. Are you more likely to damage a case during bullet seating due to insufficient case belling, ABSOLUTELY, see inattentive. Can you crush a case during crimping, TOTALLY, again, see inattentive.

My whole point is there is nothing difficult about loading .32-20 as long as you take normal care during the various steps, just like any other cartridge, that is, unless you are ham-handed and think it is the fault of the tools or materials if something goes wrong, and not yourself for being an incompetent idiot.

Happy now. did I miss anything?


And, on the subject of .32-20 bores. Yes, many do have rough bores. Of my 10 or 12 .32-20s I have some of both. The reason being that black powder was far more common in the early days, as well as shooters not being particularly careful about cleaning. A rough bore should not deter anyone from buying a .32-20 as a shooter, it is not the kiss-of-death, especially if it basically matches the outside of the gun. Contrary to "popular wisdom" a slightly rough bore does not necessarily affect the guns accuracy. Neither does it mean the gun will have leading problems, again, contrary to "popular wisdom". The most accurate of all my .32-20 revolvers is a 6 1/2" 1902 1st change built in 1905. It has a pitted bore that is uniformly rough throughout, AND it has a ring right at the barrel lug. It shoots every bit as good as any of the others, better than several, and I have never had a leading issue with it! Would I prefer a perfectly smooth bore and near perfect finish on a shooter? Of course, but I certainly would not suppose to advise anyone to avoid any gun with any issues like an imperfect bore, not if they were just wanting a shooter grade gun instead of making an investment.

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Gunsmithing since 1961

"The story that it was common for people to shoot other cartridges in .32-20s is just that, a story. Someone tells this tale on the forum, and within weeks it has been repeated so often that by now everyone repeats it as though this was more common than shooting the correct cartridge! While this was, no doubt, done, most would have shot the correct cartridge, probably exclusively."

While my experieces in a medium sized Deep South city are probably not an indicator in other locations, I have worked two different murders that involved .32-20 S&W revolvers, both loaded with .32 Long cartridges.

We had a pawn shop in town that would sell you single cartridges in all sorts of calibers.

"I have a Colt Army Special in 32-20 that is a hoot."

I have a 5" Colt Official Police in .32-20 that I shoot a bit better than my S&W. I believe it is the weight of the revolver that makes it "hang" better in my hand(s).

__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Hey Muley Gil,

I bought my nickel plated .32-20 back about Fall of 1979 from that gun shop that became a motorboat store in Christiansburg. They were already fairly uncommon then. My current blue (OK, it's actually brown) example came from the West side of Roanoke in a private swap. I guess I'm working my way away from your part of the world, huh?

As far as reloadability of the round... I talked to Skeeter Skelton near the end of his very last major public appearance about that specific cartridge that he had a reputation for loving. I had the idea of getting one of the then-available TC Contender barrels in the caliber for handgun silhouette. He stopped me and said, no, that I should get a .32 H&R Magnum instead because of the ease of loading and better case life. This from the man many thought of as "Mr. .32-20!" I never did anything more with the TCs, but I've had a couple of .32 Mags I foolishly let slip away, and now I guess my old K-frame .32-20 will have to serve as big brother to all the .32 S&W I-frames that keep following me home.

Froggie

Biginge, here are a couple of .32/20's that were for sale a few months ago at a metro Atlanta shop. Sorry for the ****** cell phone photos, but I sent these to another forum member who was shopping for a .32/20 at the time, to give him an idea of what was out there and prices of such. Other than the finish, the S&W was in VGC. The Colt had timing issues.

I have lots less in mine.

ColbyBruce, thanks for the pics. That Colt army special looks about like my Grandfathers that I have. However, the $750 price on the Smith kinda makes me lean toward $325 for this old nickel mange might not be to bad. I know a man can put any kinda price on any gun. I don't know who is going to dictate-common sense or gotta have it.

Regards

Bill

That's probably a lot more common than most people realize. Not today, but back in the 1960s it was common. Then you could buy cigarettes singly as well as ammo. From 12 ga shotgun shells in a few shot sizes to handgun ammo. Out in the country we had a general store, Howies. Old Howie had a shelf of broken boxes of ammo. Each had a slip of paper shoved in, then creased so it would stand up. He'd put the price per round on the standing portion. Everyone realized it was more expensive that way, but then everyone didn't have the bucks to spring for a full box. Maybe those folks were more practical.

Over the years I've made it a practice to haunt yard, garage, and barn sales. I even take the extra step to ask if they've got any ammo or gun stuff they want to sell. Over the last few years that source seems to be drying up.

i've also scored a fair number of guns over the years, and I really like buying the gun and its box! When the widow parts with the old man's gun, you ask her for any ammo. Toss in a couple of bucks for that.

One of the more interesting things are the photos of crime guns the media publishes. Often they have the gun, unloaded, and then any ammo from when the cop unloaded it. Mixed ammo is the name of the game. Some plated, some jacketed, some lead. With the pix of .32s, its not at all uncommon to see a few shorts and a few longs. Same with 22s in junk revolvers. I'm guessing if you've got a gun with 5 or 6 holes in it, you want them all loaded up if you've got any ammo.

Remember, Zombies are a modern kid thing. 50 and 100 years ago folks didn't imagine having an ammo stockpile of tens of thousands of rounds. In my case, I blame it on my parents. They thought buying another box of ammo before the current one is empty was just foolish. Dad did come to my rescue one time and pointed out to mom that it didn't make sense to go hunting with only 4 rounds. I needed another box of shotgun shells now, not after I'd run out and had to go sit in the truck for half the day (he had a 12, me a 20).

In my teens when we shot at a convenient played out gravel pit or the city dump (outside city limits), I often spent a half hour before and after shooting just scrounging up ammo others had dropped on the ground. Some 22s had light strikes, some no marks at all. Its how I often had a handful of mixed rounds. I didn't care, they went bang just as good.

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Dick Burg

Is mine nicer than the one you are looking at? Want to buy or trade me out of it?

Dick
Thanks for your post. It brought back fun memories.
Jack

"As far as reloadability of the round... I talked to Skeeter Skelton near the end of his very last major public appearance about that specific cartridge that he had a reputation for loving. I had the idea of getting one of the then-available TC Contender barrels in the caliber for handgun silhouette. He stopped me and said, no, that I should get a .32 H&R Magnum instead because of the ease of loading and better case life. This from the man many thought of as "Mr. .32-20!"

Skeeter, towards the end, was experimenting with the .32 H&R Magnum loaded HOT in the Ruger Single Six. IIRC, some of his loads, which he didn't publish, were in the .327 Magnum range.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

And some of the ones he did publish in Shooting Times (in an article on that smaller Ruger single action, IIRC) went in before they were pressure tested. When it was discovered how hot they were, some lawyers and bean counters went into catatonic shock!

I guess I should admit that one of the .32s I stupidly sold was the Buckeye Special Blackhawk with both a .32 H&R Mag and a .32-20 cylinder. That beast was stout enough to withstand about anything I would have considered shooting with one hand (or two.) Selling that ranks up there as one of my dumbest gun deals ever.

Froggie