Yesterday at the gun show I bought about 500 rounds of various 7.62x39 at an excellent price, all from the same seller. Included in the mix was 100 rounds of what appeared to be factory loaded Winchester 123 gr. softpoint, in two new looking Midway 50 round plastic cartridge boxes. Generally speaking I never buy factory loaded ammo of any kind but at $10 per box it looked like a steal. Just 100 pieces of new Winchester brass alone are worth more than $20.

After I got it home, the first one I looked at appeared to have the bullet seated crooked. I grabbed the bullet to check it out, and to my horror the bullet was loose in the case and could be turned with my fingers. I could see that the bullet has a cannelure and the bullet could actually be pulled out of the case for the length of the cannelure. The fit became tight again when I reached the shank of the bullet and I could not pull it out of the case with finger pressure. All the case mouths have a severe factory type crimp just like what happens when you screw a Lee factory crimp die down too far.

I pulled 10 of them and it's clear that I have new unfired Winchester brass. I never use Winchester rifle primers, but the mixture is somewhat red just like the pistol primers that I do use. The powder charge is 24.0 grs. of a stick powder that looks like an IMR powder. The primer is unplated and brass colored and they are all perfectly seated just below flush. The bullet is 123 grs. of what in my experience does look to be a Winchester softpoint with the faint striations up near the exposed lead tip. It measures .310" which is proper for the cartridge.

Can this possibly be factory loaded? The cartridges are all somewhat sticky, like they had been commercial loaded and the lube not cleaned off or tumbled. The brass is new, the bullets are what appear to be Winchester, the primers appear to be Winchester, but I have no idea about the powder. The lack of bullet tension is shocking and inexcusable, but I have heard this does happen from time to time with factory loaded ammo. Since the ammo is sticky, I'm betting that these are poorly loaded handloads that are being passed off as factory ammo. Can anybody offer an informed opinion? I will pull all the bullets and discard the powder. The brass and bullets are worth far more than $20 but I'm still upset that I was in a rush and should've realized that this ammo is shady and definitely substandard.

Dave Sinko

Truely a horror story -shoot them or toss them.

As a rule, you get what you pay for and ammo is one thing you can not go discount on.

I would not trust them based on your description.

The necks are loose, that's the problem you can see, what are the problems you can not see?

I load 7.62x39 in Winchester cases and I use Winchester primers, so that part sounds OK. I also use H4198 and 24g for a 123g boolit with that powder would be OK too, but what powder IS that in the boolits you have?

I vote for new feed for the vegetable garden.

My guess is not Winchester Factory Ammo. They would not package it in the MTM boxes.

__________________
U.S.A.F---E-7--Retired

Another "gun show ammo horror story" in the making. When will people learn?

I already pulled half of them. Dismantling them is quick and easy; two raps of the kinetic bullet puller and the bullet pops out. The bullets and brass will be re-used and are worth far more than what I paid for these loaded cartridges. I reload this cartridge and let me say that once fired boxer primed 7.62x39 brass is not something you find at the range every day. In my experience Winchester is the best that there is.

I still can't help but wonder if this really is Winchester factory loaded ammo. Who would load it with excellent Winchester components and then sell it for far less than what it's worth? Could Winchester's QC really be that bad? And what about the lube? Does Winchester need to lube the case when they load their ammo or is it not necessary? If the brass had been neck sized properly and had proper bullet pull it could pass for factory loaded ammo and I would never be able to tell the difference.

Then again, I don't have the original boxes with the lot numbers. That is a clue.

Dave Sinko

You can almost always tell reloaded ammo if you look close because you can see the die marks, thin scratches lengthwise on the case. Hand loaders generally don't polish their cases after reloading to get rid of them.

The common reason for new ammo put into aftermarket boxes is the factory boxes where damaged either by dropping them or getting wet so it is possible that they are factory new just placed in different boxes.

Since you reload this cartridge, you probably have a Lee Factory Crimp die for it and that's what I would use in this case. That should tighten the bullet in the case. Then I would put 24.0 gr of the powder that came out of it back in and shoot it. It can't be any worse than some of the "factory" loads that come from foreign sources, i.e. China.

Since you reload this cartridge, you now have a bunch of components! As you said, the brass alone is worth that and more. I buy Privi Partisan 7.62X54R ammo just so I can have the brass to reload! It is good brass and @ $18/20, it is pretty cheap. That is if you figure in that you can't find reloadable brass for that caliber anywhere!

I am with Paul on this one. Pull them, put them back together correctly and have fun!

p.s. Since this cartridge is usually fired in a weapon that is not known for MOA accuracy, yours may be but not usually are they, they will be good enough to shoot.

Just me but if I blew up a Kalashnikov, it wouldn't bother me too much.

That's not true, 7.62X54R brass is available from Norma and Lapua!

(just don't look at the price)

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Well, since you put it like that..................It is true but mostly because I am so cheap!

How is that for clarification?

Yes, it could. I lived in East Alton for several years, knew a lot of the workers at Olin, and the stories they told of sloppy production and waste were beyond belief. Their union kept substandard workers employed and constantly demanded better pay and benefits, even when unskilled workers were making $50K/year with benefits my PD's couldn't touch.

Something has to give, and if it isn't wages, it's usually quality control. I quit buying Winchester components ten years ago, unless they were all I could get. Their entire rimfire section moved to Mississippi several years ago, and company announced they couldn't afford to keep the East Alton plant open any longer, the off-the-chart union demands had pretty well wiped out what little profit they were still making. A large percentage of the products in Winchester packaging are made by someone else, in fact the last box of W-W .223 ammo I bought said "Made in Israel" in tiny print on the back, so it's been that way for quite awhile.

I hear lots of chatter about component/ammo quality at the ranges I frequent, and I haven't heard anything good about Winchester/Olin quality in several years. Quite frankly, I'm surprised they're still in business.

There are different lots of 5.56 Q3131 that have been produced in different places. Q3131A was made by IMI in Israel and is probably some of the best you can find anywhere. There is more recently some made in Korea (I don't recall its designation, Q3131A1 ?, but I think by PMC) . Straight Q3131 is made in USA and considered by many not as good as Q3131A

I take those clear 2x2 coin flips and put samples of different powder in them to use as comparison with unknown loads such as you have. I can't identify what the unknown powder is but I can get an idea of what it isn't. By the process of elimination I can often narrow it down to a few possibilities and by looking in several load books, can get an idea if the charge used is within a typical load range for the bullet used. From that info I can make the choice of whether to go ahead and shoot some or to dump the powder and reload with my own.

I actually like Winchester components over many other brands. Their brass seems to be more consistent and has a lower standard deviation in weight than most others I have weighed. Their primers and bullets are also above standard as is their powder. I haven't had any issues with the Winchester ammo I have used but I have had numerous problems with Remington and Federal brands.

I'd not even second guess wether those are reloads or not. The fact that you find them questionable because of the visual quality is enough. Plus your own instinct is telling you not to trust them.

Break them down for the components and go on.
Dump the powder.

As you say, they are worth more as broken down components than the price you paid, so you're not loosing any money.
The time you spend breaking them down will be the lesson (re)learned not to buy that type of stuff again.

We've all bought a 'bargain' or two in the past.

I'm shocked and appalled. Here I was thinking that all Winchester ammo is made here in the USA. I had a suspicion that this is in fact shoddy "factory loaded" ammo but I really didn't want to believe it. I have seen the odd round loaded with the upside down bullet or primer, but 100 rounds with loose bullets? How much more of this stuff could be out there? I doubt it's a dangerous condition with this cartridge, so nobody will care.

Dave Sinko

I have had some questionable factory ammo from Winchester in the past and that involved shotshells with poor crimps but not rifle ammo. I would be cautious due the fact that they were in Midway boxes(nothing against Midway) but they were obviously taken from their original packaging for a reason. If you can compare them to known factory ammo that might help you. Maybe just check the powder charges as someone else suggested. You can always reload them with known powder charges reuse the bullets in them. I think I came across your thread on another forum regarding AKs just a day or two ago. Another person blamed union workers but remember if quality control is poor where is the management?
If people are not paid decent wages and have safe working conditions who can afford the $very expensive pistols and rifles from non-union US shops ( just plug in names like Les Bear , Kimber , Cooper or whatever) . And no offense intended to these companies. Maybe the complainers should be shooting a Taurus or a Rossi. Maybe a Hi-Point. Management doesnt work for free either and of course preferred stock holders always get a dividend. Think it through before you bash all Union workers. I have been in the firearms business and if you study its history it can be feast or famine and all healthy firearms companies make other products that keep the gun part alive. Your purchase of a new gun once a year is not realistically going to keep a company floating especially if you bash all the new firearms coming from them because they have "locks" and vow not to buy a new one. Any way I got on my soap box to make people think a little. I apologize Dave as I only wanted to comment on the ammo to you and the rest of it was not intended to be part of it. Thanks.

May or may not be applicable to the Win. X39 ammo but S & B of the Czech Republic makes most if the Win. metric caliber ammo like the 54r and 9 x 18 and 7.62 x 25 ammo.

Several years ago I picked up a couple boxes of Win. X39 FMJ ammo still have one full box I haven't shot yet. Had two issues with it,one it didn't shoot much more accurately than Russian steel case ammo and secondly when reloaded about half of those cases had hairline case ruptures on the case shoulders so I scraped the whole batch,I've never had that issue with Win. factory new x39 component brass.

Since the box says Made in USA I'm going to assume it was but who knows. Also as you can see the Win. ammo has the traditional Win. crimp found on there rifle ammo. My Lee X39 FCD doesn't put that type of crimp on my reloads.

I vote to discard the powder, resize the brass, and reseat the bullets. As someone said your gut is telling you this is bad ammo, and maybe you shouldn't shoot it. Listen to your gut, it's probably right.

Loose bullets? Gummy cases?
This screams 'reloads' to me.
I used to buy reloads back in the '80s, when I was just starting to shoot. But now that I shoot more, I own a reloading press and do my own reloads. I would not trust anyone's reloads anymore, especially not knowing who did the reloading.

I had to make up some dummy 7.62 X 39 rounds for a training class. Yesterday I bought a 50 round factory-sealed bag of W-W unprimed new brass to use. I pulled bullets from a box of Russian-made ammunition that mic'ed at .310". They barely were held in place by the new brass. I had to run the brass through a sizing die to get it to hold the bullets firmly.

My guess is that, if your brass looks truly new, it was assembled by some gomer that just primed and charged the cases before seating bullets and crimped the dickens to hold them in place. W-W components for 7.62 are easy to find. The loader probably wanted to skip the steps of lubing, sizing then de-lubing the brass and just used them as they came.

And I have long stopped shooting anyone else's handloads in my guns. Had a neighbor growing up that liked guns, had many and loaded his own ammunition, much of it with bullets he cast himself. I had just bought my first good rifle, a new Remington 700 in .30-06. I showed it to Otis and his eyes lit up. He went down into his den/gun room and came out with a band-aid can stuffed with .30-06 handloads he had put together. "Shoot these, BUFF! They'll blow the fuzz off the dandilions for a hundred yards!"

I took them from him and said that I would give them a try. A cursory examination showed that the couple dozen rounds had ten different headstamps between them. I could see 4 different bullets were used, although of the same weights, 180 grains. I weighed the powder charges after pulling the bullets and the weights varied by at least six grains from highest to lowest. At least the primers all looked alike!

I poured the powder from the rounds, weighed it, divided it up by the number of cartridges and re-assembled the cartridges with much greater uniformity than Otis had used.

Also, Otis drank. A lot. He was frequently hammered when he loaded ammo.

I took my new .30-06 up to the range and fired a box of Winchester factory loads They were uniform and I shot four smallish groups at 100 yards.

It was then time for Otis's bull blaster loads. I put on my full-coverage Bell Star motorcycle helmet, chambered an Otis, spent a bit of time hunkering down at the bench, working up the courage, and finally, turned my eyes away and fired one round. WHAMMMM!!!!!! The rifle kicked harder than anything I had ever shot, including a .375 H&H. Muzzle rise like I was bird hunting! Sand and dust poured from the overhead rafters holding the roofs over our firing benches, jarred loose by the concussion.

Then it took two of us with a good-sized hard plastic mallet to beat the action open. The bolt's spring-loaded ejector plunger couldn't budge the fired case from it's face.

I said, "Enough! Otis wants to kill us!" My shooting buddy also had a .30-06 Ruger with him, and he thought maybe my new rifle was too tight. I gave him my motorcycle helmet, he settled down at the bench, soberly chambered another Otis, and I had him don my helmet while I stood around behind a thick steel beam. WHAAAMMMMMM!!!!

We had to take his Ruger with the fired Otis casing welded into the chamber to a good gunsmith to pry the bolt back open, pound out the Otis case and replace his damaged extractor. Gunsmith thought the headspace had been opened up a bit, too.

That was about 1976. I haven't shot an Otis cartridge since, and I am pretty sure I never will.

And nobody else's, either.

I just did an "organ transplant," so to speak. I wanted to save the new unfired Winchester brass so I loaded the pulled bullets into some beat up Remington brass I have, along with 24.0 grs. of the powder that had originally been loaded into the cartridges. This is one of the most accurate loads I have ever shot out of my rifle, the only problem being that it shoots about 2" low and 3" to the right. So this is definitely an accurate load. I have tried many bullet and powder combinations with this cartridge and so far I can come up with only one handload that is as accurate as this. I still don't believe this ammo was originally loaded by Bubba. Or even Otis.

Dave Sinko

David...I would bet this is factory ammo. I bought a box of winchester 123gr softpoint's about 15 years ago. I knew a lady who hunted whitetail here in TX, and she shattered her hand, and couldn't work a bolt action very well. I bought this ammo, and let her use one of my AK's. She shot four deer with it that season.

After reading your post, I went and looked at what I had left,(about 9), and to my suprise, I could twist the bullet in two of them with my finger. I don't shoot my AK's much anymore, but I'm gonna re crimp the 9 I have left....This was the stuff in the grey box, by the way. Very impressive results.....

I just looked at some x39 WWB I have. It has the funkiest looking crimp I've ever seen.

Looks like a segmented "squeeze" crimp. Strange.

Checked some Yugo milsurp, Wolf & MFS. No visible crimp of any sort.

No twisting bullets on any of 'em. Personally, I would not shoot the ammo described in the OP. I've seen a lot of horror stories involving recent manufactured Win ammo. As I understand it Olin is in the process of moving the plant to a new location & the union is not happy.