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  #1  
Old 11-20-2011, 05:32 PM
Doug.38PR Doug.38PR is offline
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Default .38 Special and 2400 powder

OKAY, I just bought a bottle of Alliant 2400 powder after hearing on this and other internet sources that it could "safely" propel a 158 gn Lead .38 Special +P load up to .38-44 Hi Speed or Buffalo Bore velocities......


....well 1st thing I noticed was...it's not listed in my manuels under .38, 38+P or even .357 Magnum lead bullets. the 2nd thing was that it is labled "Smokeless MAGNUM Handgun Powder".....

Is his REALLY safe? And is is safe to be using "i heard it on the internet" loading data?
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Old 11-20-2011, 05:41 PM
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Don't worry. 2400 is a perfectly good powder for higher end .38 Special loads. I have some here and use it infrequently only because it costs more than twice what Unique or Bullseye does to use.

Alot of guys use it in .357 and .44 cases, ergo the "Magnum" moniker.

Go to the Alliant webpage and check for 2400 loads in the .38.

Good luck!

Drew
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Old 11-20-2011, 05:56 PM
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Strictly, 2400 is a rifle propellant which is useable in revolver cartridges. It is perfectly safe for heavy .38 Special loads. Remember that .38-44 level loads are in the 25,000 PSI range or higher, which is in .357 Magnum territory. In the past they were specified as for Heavy-frame guns, N-Frame, Colt New Service, Single Action Army, not K-Frame S&W or D-Frame Colts.

You can use up to 11.8 gr/2400/158 LSWC (Old Lyman manual). You will get in .38-44 velocity range with ca. 10.5/2400/158 LSWC. These have all been shot and chronographed by me with no adverse results.

If you are shooting these in anything lighter than an N-Frame do not exceed 10 gr/2400/158 LSWC. Do not expect to see .38-44 velocities (1115-1150 FPS) from any revolver with a barrel length less than 6 1/2".

THIS IS MERELY A RELATION OF MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AND OLD REFERENCES. IT IS IN NO WAY A RECOMMENDATION. DO NOT SHOOT IN ANYTHING EXCEPT HEAVY FRAME REVOLVERS OR RIFLES.

I should have said too, since this seems to be a question posed by someone not very experienced as a reloader, that loading any ammunition to pressure levels that exceed +P levels is something not to be done until you have quite a bit of experience with standard loading. This is akin to recommendations made in the late 1930s about the .357 Magnum, and that was DO NOT ATTEMPT RELOADING THIS CARTRIDGE. See Phillip B. Sharpe, "Complete Guide to Reloading"!
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Old 11-20-2011, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebago Son View Post
Go to the Alliant webpage and check for 2400 loads in the .38.

Good luck!

Drew
Alliant Powder - Reloader's Guide

ooookay. Not finding it
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Old 11-20-2011, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug.38PR View Post
Alliant Powder - Reloader's Guide

ooookay. Not finding it
That's because they do not list it as a tested powder for the 38 Special or plus P version.

There is data out there in older manuals and one I found in a newer manual.

That being said and go back and read ALK8944 post, perhaps you should invest in some different powder at this time, Try some powders that are listed in YOUR manuals for +P.

Alliant lists 4 powders online.
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Old 11-20-2011, 08:26 PM
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Alk8944 has given you good advice. I use 2400 to load for my .38-44 Heavy Duty revolvers, but they are N-frames, and built for it. I have used it in .357 for my Rossi Puma carbine, and it excels there. Tried a couple of those in my M13-2, and recoil was vicious, primers flat, and extraction a little stiff ! I don't do that anymore and don't recommend that you do. With a 158gr. lead bullet in a K-frame, not more than 10.0gr, and never less than 6.0. Light loads of slow powder seem to be a bit iffy. hth

Larry
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Old 11-20-2011, 09:15 PM
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I guess I'm the only one but I feel 2400 is too slow a powder for use in the .38 Special. There are plenty of other good powders in a faster burn rate range more suitable for generating the pressures associated with a .38 Special.

If you're looking for a good powder to make the FBI Load (158gr LSWC .38 Special +P) I use HS-6. It will deliver the velocity you are looking for but not generate excessive pressure.

Back in the day there were very few powders so reloaders had to make due with what was available. There are SO MANY powders out there now there is no reason to settle so buy the powder that will serve your purpose best. In the end you will spend more time, primers, powder and bullets to find out 2400 really isn't the right powder for what you want to do. Save all the time and components and cut your losses and buy the correct powder now instead of later.
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Old 11-20-2011, 09:50 PM
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..............and that would be HS-6 by ArchAngel's standard, SR4756 by mine!

If you want whomping 38spl loads, then SR4756 is your baby! Seriously! I would think that Longshot would be a good choice too but they don't list any loads, at least the last time I checked, for it in this caliber.

I'll tell you what to try though. Go to the Lapua website and look at their Vita Vohouri loads for a 158gr LSWC. The statement right in the front of their manual is enough to convince me that obtaining these kinds of results is possible. It says something to the effect that ALL of their loads meet SAAMI or CIP standards for pressure for the caliber.

They have a load listed that pushes that weight bullet to over 1000fps! Inside SAAMI pressure specs! IMAGINE!

Are we to believe that there are NO American made powders that can do the same thing? Just Sayin'
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Old 11-20-2011, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchAngelCD View Post
I guess I'm the only one but I feel 2400 is too slow a powder for use in the .38 Special. There are plenty of other good powders in a faster burn rate range more suitable for generating the pressures associated with a .38 Special.
I agree. 2400 is not a good powder for the 38 spl. You can make it work but something like Power Pistol will serve you much better. Especially in short barrels. I use PP for 38+p and low to midrange 357. I reserve 2400 and 300MP for the true magnum loads (which I mostly shoot out of my Marlin anyways).
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Old 11-20-2011, 10:03 PM
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I have already loaded several boxes of +P using Unique and Power Pistol. The hottest I've loaded so far is 5.8 grains of Power Pistol.

As for 2400. I'm just seeking to duplicate Buffalo Bore .38+P loads (they cost so dang much) safely (which is pretty much what the .38-44 was). Buffalo Bore lists their new .38+P 158 gr Outdoorsman loads as being fired in K and even J frame revolvers safely.
A load that hot I would limit mostly to my E frame Colt Official Police 4 inch (built on the same frame as the Python and Trooper), some occasional rounds in my K frame S&W M-15 and MAYBE an occasional cylinderful in my Colt Detective Special

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Old 11-20-2011, 10:57 PM
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38 Special Load Data - Handloads.Com

Was just looking this over. This stuff reliable? Some of these loads (4.3 grains of Unique generating 920 ft per second....) see pretty hard to believe.

I did notice 7.5 grains of 2400 generating 990 ft per second

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Old 11-20-2011, 10:59 PM
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I really don't understand people saying a K frame is unsuitable for 2400 loads in .38 Special brass. The main concern is pressure, so it's advisable to use a gun that will handle the pressure, like a M19 or M66, both being K frames. Of course, that applies to any powder chosen.

I have two basic powders for .38 Specials intended for other than my M14 and that's 2400 and SR 4756. Either one will out perform H110/W296 in medium bores, like .357 Mag.

Since we have already introduced Phil Sharpe's book, page 409 tells us he used up to 14.0 gr of 2400 with a 146 SWCHP at 1380 fps and 29,700 breech pressure with a .340" seating depth in .38 Special. 12.0 gr with that bullet clocked 1200 fps at 21,800 breech pressure with that same seating depth. He went on up to 16.0 gr, but seated at .215" to produce 1511 fps at 35,000 breech pressure (way too high for anything other than a .357 Mag).

Speer #8 got 1155 fps with a 158 gr lead SWC using 11.0 gr 2400 with a magnum primer. Their test gun was a 6" K38.

Speer #5 (1961) gives the pressure of a 146 gr half jacket bullet at 1103 fps and 16,000 cup with 11.0 gr of 2400.
BBHFarm Gallery :: Speer #5, Speer Inc, 1961 :: aab

Now, why is 2400 supposed to be unsuitable?
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Old 11-20-2011, 11:10 PM
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38 Special +P Load Data - Handloads.Com

7.8 grains of 2400 generation 1035 ft per second. Pressure claimed to be 17,400 PSI
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Old 11-20-2011, 11:22 PM
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The source for that data was Alliant and they always claim more than what a real world gun will produce.
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Old 11-21-2011, 12:05 AM
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The 500 dollar paperweight model 60
This is not a place you wish to take shortcuts nor give in to any urge to pull a "hold my beer and watch this"
yeah, Im sure 2400 can be made to work, but this thread linked above shows clearly what happens when we let our egos prevail over intellect.
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Old 11-21-2011, 12:18 AM
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Elmer on pocket guns:
Quote:
In true pocket guns for defense use, the best we know of today are the Smith & Wesson Centennial and the Chief’s Special and the Colt Cobra. The Smith & Wesson 2 inch barrel, round butt Military and Police model may be added to this list. These are true pocket guns – all capable of handling the various high speed and super police loads in .38 Special. The smallest and lightest of the lot is, of course, the Chief’s Special with light alloy metal frame. Next come the Smith & Wesson Centennial and the Colt Cobra and lastly the detective specials in Smith & Wesson and Colt. (emphasis added)
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Old 11-21-2011, 12:39 AM
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It's not just peak pressure that effect max velocity it's also the amount of time that pressure is sustained, area under the curve. Buffalo bore has access to powders that most do not so duplicating their loads maybe almost impossible with what you have to work with powders use. If they can sustain the same pressure for a bit longer with their powders they can achieve higher velocities with the same max pressures. If you want 357 power buy one.
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Old 11-21-2011, 12:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug.38PR View Post
Alliant Powder - Reloader's Guide

ooookay. Not finding it
You missed it then because at least one load is there:
Alliant Powder - Reloader's Guide
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Old 11-21-2011, 01:05 AM
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Quote:
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You missed it then because at least one load is there:
Alliant Powder - Reloader's Guide


no I saw that...but it's 146 sjhp, not a 158 gr lead
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Old 11-21-2011, 01:08 AM
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Maybe he just wants a real .38 Special load instead of the wimp loads being published/sold now.

I find it amazing that published loads from 50 years ago, that didn't blow guns up, are now disdained as being "over the top". It's the Glock type plastic junk that keeps blowing up with a rare revolver that has been grossly over loaded.

The powder companies want you to buy the latest and greatest, so they can recoup their development money and they push those new powders while they exclude perfectly good loads with older powders. Bullet companies want you to buy their newest bullets too, so they load them with the newer powders with sterling results, so they can sell bullets and loading manuals.

All the while, reloaders are left wondering whose published load is really a max load, since they fluctuate wildly in their data and grossly overstate their results.
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Old 11-21-2011, 02:16 AM
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Paul5388 said:
Quote:
Maybe he just wants a real .38 Special load instead of the wimp loads being published/sold now.

^^^^^^^^^^
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Old 11-21-2011, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug.38PR View Post
I have already loaded several boxes of +P using Unique and Power Pistol. The hottest I've loaded so far is 5.8 grains of Power Pistol.
That is my standard 38 spl load for an Xtreme plated 158 gr SWC. From a 686+ w/3" bbl, my chronograph tells me the average MV = 834 fps, SD = 13 fps.

Quote:
As for 2400. I'm just seeking to duplicate Buffalo Bore .38+P loads (they cost so dang much) safely (which is pretty much what the .38-44 was). Buffalo Bore lists their new .38+P 158 gr Outdoorsman loads as being fired in K and even J frame revolvers safely.
A load that hot I would limit mostly to my E frame Colt Official Police 4 inch (built on the same frame as the Python and Trooper), some occasional rounds in my K frame S&W M-15 and MAYBE an occasional cylinderful in my Colt Detective Special
Duplicating BB's load and staying within published limits has proven difficult. In fact, I don't know of anyone who has done it.
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Old 11-21-2011, 04:47 PM
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I own a J-frame Centennial (640 no dash) that shot 158 grain cast bullets unacceptably low and grouped them poorly with every factory and powder/handload I tried.

Hodgdon Powder No. 27 Data Manual, in its 38 Special+P section, page 75, lists a 160 gr. JSP in front of 7.8 grains of 2400 at 910 fps/17,500 PSI. It also lists a 200 gr. LRN in front of 7.1 gr. 2400 at 890 fps/17,500 PSI.

I had some cast Valiant 180 grain TFPs that I loaded into 38 Special cases with 7.3 grains 2400, a standard small Federal pistol primer, and crimped'em in the crimping groove. Problem solved. They shoot into a ragged hole about 1/2" below p.o.a., off-hand, at 21 feet, recoil pleasantly, extract easily, and show no visible pressure signs. I haven't chronographed'em yet but will do so and report here.

They print tight groups about 2 to 3 inches high at the same distance out of my 60-9 .357 mag J-frame. It prefers 11 grains 2400 and the Lyman 358156 gc, loaded in 38 Special brass, and crimped in the forward grease groove. However, I no longer load that round for fear of my wife unknowingly loading them in her Airweight. The mag'll have to make do with loads in mag brass.

Flame away about 2400's huge ball a'fire when fired in low-light situations, but I've seen enough out of the big bullet and the old powder to take my chances. 2400 may not be everyone's 38+P powder and it aint mine in every gun I own, but it's just what the doctor ordered in this little J-frame.
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Old 11-21-2011, 05:13 PM
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With only 45 years of hand-loading experience. I have found;

What with each firearm having it's own individual threshold in respect to the chamber pressures limits to that specific firearm.
I have found that pressure tolarances vary from firearm to firearm.

The desired level of ft lbs of energy / fps of velocity for your application may be achieved by carefully
working up to that level of performance with a combination of different components.

If you reach pressure levels equal to or above that of what the firearm will tolerate you will see the signs,
flattened primers, difficult extraction of cartridge cases, pierced or blown primer and
excessive case head expansion or case head separation.

Having tried jest 'bout all the popular powders for pistol cartridges,
I have found that Unique and 2400 to fit the bill 99% of the time.
They just suit me right down to the ground.

I've loaded 38, 357, 44 Special and the 44 Magnum from mild to the serious...I have never had a firearm failure, period.

Oh, I'll admit that some of the 44 Mag. loads were on the border of the red line for
silhouette shooting at those 50 lbs. steel rams at 200 meters.

Those 29-2 had to be tuned on purty often...

For an improved performance 38 Special load to be used in modern 38-44 and 38 Spl./357 mag. revolvers,
My load of the hard cast 358429 sized .357 over a healthy dose of 2400 just flat works for me.

(The Lyman 45 Edition list a max. of 10.5 grains of 2400 under the above bullet. And a max. load of 11 grains for a 158 grain cast using #2 alloy)

Your experience may vary...
After y'all load up and shoot a few thousand of a specific load, let's hear how that goes.


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Old 11-21-2011, 08:28 PM
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I loaded .38 special with 160 gr SWC and 2400 in the '70's and but lost my data. It was hot and I painted the tip red. I put many rds through my model 60 with no problems. I learned you "work up" a load for your pistol. That is what reloading is all about, not what is in the manual. The data in the manual is for reference and must be approached with some common sense. The first part of the manual goes through the steps and proper procedures. That info is what keeps you safe.
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Old 11-21-2011, 11:51 PM
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I just put a 158 gr Midway LSWC through my Colt Official Police 4 inch with 6.0 grains of Power Pistol behind it (maximum Speer load). As hot a .38 Special load as I've shot so far. Put it in the cylinder with another round with 5.2 grains of Unique (maximum Speer load) and a round of 4.0 grains of Unique. Needless to say the 4.0 Unique was pretty tame, but 5.2 Unique was pretty vicious....but the Power Pistol 6.0 was slightly tougher and felt pretty impressive....that is until I dropped a Remington LHP +P into the gun and fired it....if both the Power Pistol 6.0 and the Remington had been in the gun at the same time....I'd swear they were they same. It was after sundown so I couldn't use my chronograph. I don't know which one was faster (if any) but I plan on taking the chronograph out with another load to see
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:31 AM
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I clocked a 158 gr Dry Creek LSWC at 980fps using 5.5 gr of Unique out of a 4" M&P from 1949. That's a pretty good ways from the .38-44 load you were looking for.
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Old 11-22-2011, 01:08 AM
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speaking strictly as a beginner to all this, isn't it dangerous to exceed maximum published loads from the reloading manuel? 5.5 is 0.3 grains above the maximum Speer and Hornandy manuel.

Even if I can't get to .38-44/Buffalo Bore speeds, I'd CERTAINLY like to exceed modern factory loads
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Old 11-22-2011, 01:17 AM
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At your stage in the game, it's probably best to stick with what you have. It'll probably do everything you want to do and then some.

If you're anywhere close to Shreveport we might be able get together for some shooting (bull or bullets )
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Old 11-22-2011, 01:26 AM
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38 Special +P Load Data - Handloads.Com

The top of this list that 2400 listing says it's 17400 psi. That's standard .38 isn't it? If the PSI is that load...you certainly can go up into +P territory (around 20,000 psi) correct? (of course this sounds like what Saxon Pig has been saying all along)
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Old 11-22-2011, 01:30 AM
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At your stage in the game, it's probably best to stick with what you have. It'll probably do everything you want to do and then some.

If you're anywhere close to Shreveport we might be able get together for some shooting (bull or bullets )
Yeah for now, I want to stick with what is published by companies and reloading manuels. I might just try the above 2400 load at some point.

You live around Henderson from what your location says. Rusk Co. (I've worked over there in your courthouse) That's a few hours from Shreveport.
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  #32  
Old 11-22-2011, 02:01 AM
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It's only 65 miles from where I am in south Rusk County to the VA in Shreveport.

Try the 7.8 gr load referenced in Handloads.com, but clock it to see if it's anywhere close to what Alliant says and don't use the one I posted right under it.

Last edited by Paul5388; 11-22-2011 at 02:06 AM.
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:27 AM
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HA! YOU posted that? I wondered what in the world such a hot load was doing in the +P with such a .357 Magnum velocity. I saw the Admin. put that note in.

What kind of gun were you using for that load and how did you come up with it?
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Old 11-22-2011, 06:15 AM
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2400 is an ok powder for special loads. i have many diffrent powders that i have tested 38s with. for accuracy + heat i found nothing better than unique. i use for a max load 5.5 gr. with a lyman 155gr. hp. and 5.gr with a 158gr. cast lead. all with a std. primer. it don't get no gooder than dat.
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Old 11-22-2011, 10:59 AM
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I used a 4" M66-1 to clock that load. I am part of the admin, so the note was just to let people know it isn't a load for just any gun. Besides, where else is there to post loads like that other than the +P section? The criteria for posting loads, when we were still allowing it, was being able to find that load published in a reloading manual.
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Old 11-22-2011, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
I did notice 7.5 grains of 2400 generating 990 ft per second
The problem with using 2400 at such low pressures is 2400 like most slow powders doesn't like low pressures. You will get erratic velocities and accuracy. You will also get a lot of unburnt powder. I tried it, it just doesn't work.

On the other hand, with the proper charge of HS-6 (not in the book) I have generated an average velocity of 890fps from a 2" barrel with a 158gr LSWC/HP bullet. It can be done with the correct powder and charge without exceeding 20,000 psi.
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Old 11-22-2011, 11:10 PM
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^ wow, that's pretty impressive. That would make 4 inch barrel right around 1000 ft per second.
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Old 11-23-2011, 01:37 AM
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Here's some older data, like 1961, that has pressure data too. R.D=red dot and BULL=Bullseye.
BBHFarm Gallery :: Speer #5, Speer Inc, 1961 :: aab

Here's some 1970 2" barrel data, but it doesn't have pressure data.
BBHFarm Gallery :: Speer #8, Speer Inc, 1970 :: aan
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Old 11-27-2011, 11:57 AM
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I found this quote from Ed Harris this morning and thought I would share it.
Quote:
For approximating the +P+ in .38 Special brass in the Marlin rifle or revolvers designed for .357 magnum, such as Rugers, L-frame and N-frame S&W, you could use 10 grs. of #2400 with the Saeco or RCBS Cowboy slugs, with WSP or Federal 200 primers, seated and crimped in their normal crimp groove. Do NOT use this load in pre-1974 Colts, Charter Arms, K or J-frame S&Ws unless originally chambered for .357 ammunition, because pressure exceeds industry +P standard by about 15%.
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Old 11-27-2011, 07:38 PM
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Ed Harris is a very respectable and reliable source....but it seems odd that 10 grains is purportedly producing higher pressures than numerous old sources reported with 11 grains of 2400. ( I know that some incluiding Ed H have reported that modern 2400 is "quicker" but I struggle with unbelief.)
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Old 11-27-2011, 09:41 PM
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Obviously there is some questionable data somewhere. Speer #5 says 11.0 gr with a 160 gr half jacket bullet only produces 18K pressure. BBHFarm Gallery :: Speer #5, Speer Inc, 1961 :: aab That's the same data Speer #7 published too. BBHFarm Gallery :: Speer #7, Speer Inc, 1968 :: aab
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Old 11-29-2011, 12:30 AM
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OK. I just loaded, for comparison, 6 rounds. Two 2400 7.0 grains (as recommended starting point by Alliant in Handloads.com), two Power Pistol 5.8 grains and two Unique 5.1 grains. All with 158 gr LRN Speer bullets. Shooting was at night.

Wanted to feel the power in the flash and recoil. Unique was something of a jump with a bit of a spark coming out. Power Pistol was a little more jump and more of a flash. 2400....was a almost no jump and almost no flash.
Even my dad, who was sitting inside my house, ask what I was shooting. He noticed the first two were pretty loud while the last two sounded like almost nothing.
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Old 11-29-2011, 01:26 AM
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Doug, what we've been trying to tell you is, you can load what the current books say and obviously have no troubles. OTOH, you can also load what the old manuals say and probably not have any problems either. The price you may pay with the older hotter loads is a decrease in the life of your gun, if you shoot them a lot.

It's all in what you're willing to accept as valid data along with the very real possibility of increased/accelerated wear.
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Old 11-29-2011, 02:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul5388 View Post
probably not have any problems either. .
AHEM....."probably" is the key word here. The flip side of that is there could possibly be a problem.

The only thing that concerns me really is what I understand to be the dangers in using old data. From what I understand, it's not that old manuals are wrong, but they are just not NECESSARILY right for powder brands as they are currently made. like one type of powder today might be hotter than it was 30 years ago and hence dangerous to use old loading data.

Apart from what I just said, I don't see why certain loads were ok 30 years ago but are suddenly unmentionable today

Last edited by Doug.38PR; 11-29-2011 at 02:24 AM.
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Old 11-29-2011, 02:58 AM
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Old 11-29-2011, 11:33 AM
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Powder doesn't change in a drastic way, regardless of what people say and regardless of when it was made. Powder that has been sitting on a shelf in your loading room will get weaker with age due to deterioration, not stronger. There will be some variation by lot number, but only within a specified range, or it's rejected for canister use and sold to the large ammunition plants.
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Old 11-30-2011, 05:32 PM
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i have some IMR4350 from the 60s that i use in 6mm remington and 303 british. it works fine, as long as it smells good like acetone it is ok to use.
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Old 12-01-2011, 03:34 PM
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When comparing old manuals to new remember that the old recommendations were based on CUP measurements (sometimes labeled as PSI) and the new are based on average and maximum PSI measured by a pressure transducer.
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Old 12-01-2011, 05:35 PM
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SAAMI specifications are in CUP and PSI, so it doesn't make any difference when the manual was written, if it includes pressure data. SAAMI has been around since the 1920s, long before there were any transducers being used. However, transducers were used in the early 1960s by DuPont and some others as recorded in "Absolute Chamber Pressures in Center Fire Rifles", L.E. Brownell and others, July 1965, University of Michigan.
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Old 12-02-2011, 12:28 AM
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Paul is correct that specs have been around a long time in various measurement formats. Furthermore, Bill Caldwell at Speer created the Pressure Revolver at Speer and measured pressure using piezo electric transducers at the time of the much debated Speer #8 proving that pressures were INCREASED in revolvers due to the jump from cylinder to forcing cone rather than being lowered by the b/c gap. One of thr powders tested in .357 mag in the pressure revolver? IMR 4756.
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