I'm cheap, which means I buy used cars that have lost most of their market value. There are only two kinds of used cars: those that have broken, and those that will break again. Since I'm cheap, I fix the used cars my cheapness compels me to buy. This means I have spent quite a bit of time at the parts counters of various auto parts stores, chief of which are Auto Zone and Advance Auto Parts.

Over the years I've heard a lot of stupid things from the people who man the counters. They don't know me; they don't know if I'm educated, or in what; they don't know how experienced I am, or not; and they don't know how knowledgeable I am about cars. Over time I've learned to keep my mouth more closed than usual when speaking with somebody I don't know, because I might make a fool of myself emphatically saying something erroneous in an area of their expertise. Apparently, auto store parts counter workers lack this insight because over the years I've heard some incorrect and stupid stuff from these guys.

I understand why they do this. They think that working behind an auto parts store counter gives them credibility. They must know what they're talking about because, you know, they work at an auto parts store. Duh. See the brand on the shirt? He *works* there. You just shop there. Never mind that there are decades of cars from scores of manufacturers offering hundreds of models in literally thousands of variations, or that each vehicle has between 3500 and 5500 parts. Just look at the shirt! It tells you all you need to know about the container of automotive part awesomeness who condescends to spend a little of his time helping you purchase a part that you really don't understand anyway. Maybe someday you can work there and get a shirt like his. I know I aspire to this lofty position in life. It's all about the shirt.

I own a 2003 Ford Focus ZX5. It had the factory rotors on it until today, and with 107,XXX miles on the clock, those rotors were pretty ratty. I had procured discs and pads and descended upon my Focus's front wheels about 10:30 AM. Discs and pads should only take about an hour, and that long only because I always work at a leisurely pace. Well, on the right front I attempted to put the new pads in the caliper and they didn't fit. Comparison to the pads just removed showed they were completely different. Huh. How could The Shirt have done this? So, to my displeasure I got in my other car (after completing an oil change I was doing at the same time as the brakes on the Focus) and headed back to the store.

I explained that they didn't fit, showed The Shirt the pads just removed, and said I'd need something that fit. I told The Shirt I wanted semi-metallic pads so whatever he had in semi-metallic that looked like the parts in my bag, that's what I wanted. The Shirt peered down at me and said they didn't have any semi-metallic pads and that I wouldn't be able to find them. I replied "Oh, I bet I will be able to find them." And then The Shirt uttered something that ranks highly on the list of Stupid Things Auto Parts Counter Workers Say:

"Semi-metallic has been discontinued because they are damaging. They damage your car, whch is why most cars come with organic pads."

I admit to a moment of disbelief. What I wanted to say was "Ah, so I see that your shirt came with a degree in mechanical engineering." I would find this comment particularly funny because while I don't have his shirt, I do have a degree in mechanical engineering and actually studied disc brakes as part of a three-quarter machine design course that was part of the core curriculum. But I just scowled and told him I would shop at his competitor because he wanted me to pay $55 for a set of ceramic pads, when what I wanted a $35 set of semi-metallic brake pads. After receiving my money back, I drove 200 yards down the street to their largest national competitor, wherein I found not one, not two, but three variations of semi-metallic pads which looked just like the parts I removed from my car.

Sadly, the tale doesn't end there. I put the LF pads on and secured everything, including the wheel. I went to the RF wheel and inserted the pads, only to have a retaining tab on the outboard pad snap off as I attempted to put a retaining wire clip into its final position. So I disassembled both brakes again, got in my other car again, and got a third set of pads. I'm pleased to say that my Focus has shiny new discs and pads (of the semi-metallic variety) and for my troubles I got to tell this story.

What other stupid things have the shadetree mechanics on this forum heard from the people behind the counter at their parts stores?

Oh my gosh, there are so many.

When the kid (who looks like he's twelve years old) says "what's a Datsun?" and I had to tell him to try looking under "Nissan".

I needed a spark plug boot remover. So I asked the young man I needed one, his reply...."Don't make 'em, just pull 'em off with your hand.". So I stroll down the aisles, found one, went to pay for it and his reply, "When did they start making these and what aisle did you find this?" Ah.........

Tell them exactly what you want and they need to look it up . What year is the car. 1932 Ford/350 chevy/350trans/8inch ford/a/c. Then you get the deer in the headlites....

Oh! I have another from the past few days. The Focus has 100,000 double platinum spark plugs and at 107,000 miles, that means it's time to change them. I went to the auto parts store and told The Shirt that I wanted four OEM plugs for my Ford Focus. After clicking through the computer, he looks at me and says "What brand was that?"

I said, "Motorcraft. It's a Ford." See, Shirts, if you want to talk the puff, you need to know the stuff.

I don't get this anymore from "The Shirts"... because I go online to their site, look up the part, write down the part number, walk in, hand them the paper and tell them "I need this".

I feel your pain cause ya see I have been managing auto parts store for the better part of a quarter century.Not the big box stores like Advance or the Zone but trying to find intelligent workers these days that are willing to learn is like trying to find a corner in a round room.On the other hand I have over the years heard and witnessed some stellar brain power on the part of the customer too.Guy on the phone wants plugs for his car and I ask him if it was a 4cyl or 6cyl.How would I know that was his response.Or the time a guy wanted parts for his car and there was a choice of two 4cyl motors.One was 1.8 the other being 2.0 to which he replied "It's gotta be the smaller one cause it ain't very fast goin' up hill".Then there was the guy who would jump out of his truck and run to the back of his truck and do it again and again,probably 3 or 4 times before I couldn't take it any more and went outside to ask him what he was doing."I'm tryin' to see which brakelight is burned out he said."These are all true ,I've got many more but really I am trying to forget cause it scares me.

When I tell him the goofy kid (who looks like he escaped puberty a week ago) that I need something for a Ford F-100 and he tells me "You mean F-150 right? They don't have F-100's.) At that point in time i kind of want to talk to his dad or whoever is in charge of him at that point.
Another one that is fun to use. When they ask (or any other place) "Are you waiting in line?" The answer to use (and I have) is "Nope I am an undercover Jehovah witness just waiting to spread the good word." Works pretty good.

__________________
Vaya con Dios

I remember the days when we still had mom and pop auto parts stores. If you traded there a few times, the owner knew your name. If you brought in a part and laid it on the counter, he would say, ’Got one in the back, I’ll get it.’ These were the folks who knew cars and the parts that made them run and they took pride in that knowledge. Things never seem to change for the better.

Just about every vehicke I own is older than the "shirts" these days.

As I always have a back-up vehicle (or 2), I just order on line for everything except oil. Even got a complete Honda timing belt kit on line, and it was correct and had everything I needed to do that painful job.

I did my time as a "shirt", so I know mistakes happen, but no one would understand what dealing with consumers is really like without having actually worked day in and day out with them.

Was never a LEO, but I can kinda understand why, after a while, some of them feel EVERYONE is guilty, they just haven't been caught yet.

This is a very amusing thread. I have been a "shirt" for 45 years. I enjoy the occasional BYM that knows what they are doing. 90% of the folks I talk to really don't have a clue but being the true professional that I am I always try to help. I'd say there is a true 25% that should never touch anything mechanical. They are absolutely sure of what is wrong with the car and know how to fix it because they saw it on the internet. I joyfully sell these folks what they want with no argument and then refuse to take back the part they just tried and didn't fix the problem. I could go on and on but really good counter men are either working in dealerships or are very very old.
DW

__________________
"NUTS"

I like to restore old jeeps and old tractors so I am constantly using parts for an application that they were not originally intended. Because of this finding a Shirt that can think outside the box is very difficult. There is one shirt at the Advanced Auto that I frequent that is always whining and complaining about my requests so I try and avoid him when possible. There is a very helpful girl that I prefer to use. One day while waiting for my regular girl the other idiot asks me why can't he help me and I replied... I come here for parts and all you ever give me is attitude! funny since then he doesn't even look my way. Problem solved!!

Chuck, that was well-written and amusing - thanks. I'm sure there are many folks working in parts stores who know what they're doing, but I enjoyed reading your rant and can relate to the needful urge to rant.

My brother is one of those shirts by choice. He has been at it about 30 years now and is exceptionally knowledgeable about the parts and what they go to.

You should hear his stories about customers. The stupid things that folks say to the shirts will make you cringe.

Most of his stories go like this. Someone comes in and says "i want one of these" and plunks a part on the counter. So bro says what car did "it" come off of? A yellow one is the answer. No, what make and model? A yellow one with big tires and it don't run but I want one of these.

You can picture the conversation goes down hill from there.

Just remember some of those shirts are doing the job because they don't want to work for the man. Also don't underestimate them, some may have multiple PhD's and post-docs in materials engineering, electrical engineering and mathematics.

__________________
SWCA 1646

One of the tech writers in a Motorcycle Mag puts true stuff of this nature in his column. One that stands out is about a guy who came to a bike shop parts counter and asked for a "new flint for his starter." The parts guy asked him to repeat his request, and he explained that his bike wouldn't start, and he needed a new flint for the starter.

Interesting thread. I too drive well-used vehicles and do nearly all my own repair work. I've bought parts at AutoZone, Advance, O'Reilly, NAPA stores, CarCraft, etc. I guess I've been fortunate in that I don't recall running into the kind of counter person described by Chuck. I have gotten upset at times over an aftermarket part that doesn't fit. I don't really see an excuse for that. I bought a fuel filter for a Toyota Corolla at Advance that had an inlet fitting that was too long. The steel fuel line entering the fitting was so designed that it absolutely could not be reshaped to fit. I had to return the filter and get the OEM part from the dealer at a much higher price. Oh well...

Andy


P.S. One other story: Last summer I had to replace the CV half shafts on my Civic and bought remanufactured ones from NAPA. I discovered after getting them home and installing them that neither of the outboard joints on them were any good. Lesson learned; new ones only from now on.

Most of the big discount auto stores hire high school kids. Fine for cleaning and maintenance supplies.
When I need PARTS , I deal with NAPA. The older guys at the local NAPA have been there since I first walked in 20yrs ago. They know their stuff and they know me by name. They know what points & condenser I need for the Morris magneto on my '50 Pan or what ones fit my stock '68 Shovel. Never get a wrong parts from them either. Never get a 'core charge' , they know I'll bring back a core.

Plus I truly believe NAPA stuff is better quality than the other chains.

I typically always replace an older battery long before it craps out leaving me or my wife stranded. I measure the battery box and attempt to fit the largest battery that will fit. When I go to Sears to get a new diehard, I take the old one for a core. They ALWAYS ask what year and make and model it fits. I tell them it is for a 48 studebaker (even though it is not!) and ask for a particular part number that I have already looked up online. That is the only way I can get what I want in the least amount of time without a big hassle.

__________________
NRA Endowment member

Several things come to mind:

(1) I'd wager that the percentage of Shirts with an educational background such as you describe is sufficiently small as to insignificantly lessen the rate of breathtakingly brilliant utterances at part counters, some which I've been subjected to or witnessed over almost 20 years of patronizing auto parts retailers.

(2) I trust that a counter worker educated as you describe would also be smart enough not to invent ridiculousness like "semi-metallic damages your car".

(3) As a group, customers are certainly not more knowledgeable, and probably considerably less knowledgeable about their vehicles and parts than the Shirts. About 15 years ago, a man on a Fiero mailing list (I've had and still have multiple copies of the fabulous flaming plastic fantastic) told me that if I'd just put some 20W-50 between my hands and rub them together, and then do the same with 5W-30, I'd immediately know why 20W-50 was a superior motor oil *and* why I should ignore GM's advice to use 5W-30 in favor of 20W-50. Yep, when you've got a degree in engineering, especially mechanical, and you spend time with other car enthusiasts, you quickly realize that their automotive ignorance is vast.

Let us all take heart. This maddening and humorous behavior is not limited to the auto parts counter. I design, develop, test, and productionize data warehouses for a living. I specialize in the multidimensional type of data warehouse (yes, there are types of data warehouses) and a type of non-relational database built for this type of warehouse called a "MOLAP" database. From 2004-2006 I did 18 months at a giant retailer HQ'd in Atlanta. During my stint there I sat through a sales presentation by IBM, who already had millions of dollars in hardware and software there but who was always trolling for more. They wanted to shove the non-IBM DW development projects out, to be replaced (of course) by millions of dollars in additional IBM database licenses. The woman driving the presentation actually said "Everybody knows that MOLAP stuff doesn't work."

This is amusing for several reason, but primarily because IBM was partnered with Hyperion, authors of the Essbase MOLAP database. My lone response to this nonsense was "Really? Do your partners at Hyperion know you think this?"

So I may love to hammer on The Shirts because I get a healthy dose of them from time to time, but The Suits are at least as bad!

As a parts man for the past 24 years who got his start with the "shirts" at Auto Zone, and more recently spent the past 18 years with Nissan, Toyota, and a Ford/Suzuki dealer, I feel your pain. The Zone was a good place to get my feet wet, not much good for anything else. Maybe you should try your local dealer FIRST. In my 18 years of dealership experience, I've discovered that not only many of our prices right in line with aftermarket, but that we also tend to know more about what we are looking for, since we BUILT the damn car to begin with. I LOVE when people come to me and tell me "have you got one of these; you're my last resort; I've tried everywhere else in town." Makes you feel VERY special, and really makes you want to be helpful. I get tired of having to preach the same speech about aftermarket parts. I've said it for years, pay me now, or pay me later. One reason aftermarket big box parts stores are cheaper is that their parts are NOT designed just specifically for your car. That part number may encompass several vehicles; just because it says it fits yours doesn't mean it doesn't fit something else. As for the mentality of the employees, most of them are lucky to get hired in at minimum wage, so it's not a really conducive environment to learning the business. You get what you pay for, and most of those guys want out of there and into a dealership environment as soon as they can find something. Don't get me wrong; I'm not knocking your rant at all. I can fully understand your frustration, but considering the companies you are dealing with, I would suggest your local dealer, if nothing else to compare and see. I have MANY customers who tell me that Auto Zone, Advance, O'Reilly's, etc., all show two or three different numbers for any given part, when, most of the time, I show only one, and that's the correct part for the vehicle. As far as the debate over semi metallic, organic, ceramic, Kryptonic, whatever, I leave that to the technicians, my job is NOT to tell someone how to fix it, only to supply the correct parts for them to do the job AFTER they diagnose the issue. If I could diagnose the problem, find the part, sell the part, AND tell them the install process, I would truly be an automotive God. Good luck, and if you have any Focus questions, I'll try to answer them to the best of my knowledge. (Even though, starting Monday, I'll be in the Hyundai business after seven years of Ford).

__________________
MARK

The worst I've heard is
"Does your husband know you're doing this?"
or some variation on that theme.

__________________
Soli Deo Gloria

BuckeyeChuck,

I retired from a Fortune 500 company. You need to see the dumbfounded look on the IBM guys face when you tell him you're completely satisfied with the present IBM product that you are using. He then goes into a speel about there is absolutely no way that you could be satisfied (we were though).

Update, Update, Updates, software and hardware because if you're satisfied and the existing products are doing ALL YOU NEED, then I'm out of a job.

__________________
NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

+1 for Great parts counter guys and I've seen a few gals too. Old NAPA type were the guys to talk to around where I lived, guys that knew you could use a part on other vehicles too, without having a computer. We didn't have computers, now you need one to find the part you need and many times to install it and make work. (Built-in DEALERSHIP service profits).

__________________
NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

I have more dealings with motorcycle parts guys than car guys. They seem to have it on the ball, but every so often I will run across a young guy who does not know much about the older bikes.

When I ask for parts for a CT200, if the comeback is "A pushrod Trail 90?" then I know I'm in good hands.

Kinda off topic a bit but when going to the Big Box Homestores always look for the old guy with grey hair and a beard.

Oh, by the way, Nissan is reviving the Datsun name.

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

Sometimes I get pleasantly surprised. I broke a belt on a lawn mower. Checked at the 2 local small engine repair shops and on-line. The proper belt must be made out of gold! I thought the price was ridiculous. Yep, I sometimes am reluctant to throw money away.
I took the broken belt to Auto Zone. With some trepidation, I asked the fella behind the counter if he could find a belt in his stock that matched the one I broke. I mean dimensionally, etc. This was no kid.
He went in the back and returned in a few minutes with a new belt that looked right.
I installed it. It worked. It is still just under 3 years later. It cost me much less than 1/2 of an original replacement belt.
Sometimes you find a "shirt" that has something on the ball.

I used to be a mechanic so I know the feeling.

I like to point out that semi-metallic shoes does eat your rotors but that's what makes them work so well. Organic? Junk! They glaze over and fade on you way before they needed to be replaced.

__________________
_It was love at first shot_

I have over a dozen years as a partsman/manager, mostly at motorcycle shops. Unfortunately, the retail parts world couldn't keep up with my lifestyle, so I moved on to greener fields.

There are hundreds of stories on both sides of the counters.

The "dumb" customer who have no clue what they own.
The "dumb" counterman who has no clue what he is selling.
The "smart" customer who knows everything about his one vehicle.
The "smart" counterman who knows something about everything he sells.

It's easy to learn about a single car/bike.
It's much harder to learn about an entire line of vehicles, or multiple lines.

Smart parts people are getting harder to find.

To Mr.Eick and Jframe,you guys live in the real world****le 3 that's me gray hair and gray beard.To Chuck you need to make the drive down to see me.I will do my best to hook you up with whatever you need or whatever you want and I'll do it with a smile.I think I saw the word engineer in here somewhere.Hmm those are the guys that design a vehicle here and there that requires removal of a fender or a back seat to replace a battery.Same guys that design a vehicle that will turn it's own lights on in the middle of the night and drain that battery.I can probably name a few more "engineering miracles" out there but I'll stop there cause I won't be on the planet that long.I have a belief that if you design it you should be able to fix it.I've never seen that happen.I've done both sides of this as a mechanic and a parts guy and it's all ugly.The aftermarket parts business is a nightmare of trying to be the cheapest and the best at the same time.Guess what?That ain't possible.There is little to absolutely no quality control anymore and as previously mentioned these counter guys are paid next to nothing so I deal with that cause you get what you pay for.The sooner some one pulling down Engineer cash realizes that the better off we'll all be.By the way the young guys who want to learn deserve somewhat of a break.DWFAN please forgive me for not mentioning you earlier,you are also my hero.

I have learned through sad experience that when you live 30 minutes from a parts store you only work on one vehicle at a time. Always have a running spare rig.

__________________
Front sight and squeeze

A few years ago the battery in my mother-in-law's Buick died. I called Advance Auto and asked if they installed them. He said it depends upon the car. If it's "labor intensive" they don't do it. When I told him it was a '98 Cierra he said no because the computer says you have to take off the right front wheel to remove and install the battery. What??? I called a Buick dealer, talked to the service manager and he said all I needed was a long extension for the socket wrench. I did have to remove the brace that goes from the fender to the radiator housing. That battery was squeezed into one tiny space but I changed it, despite bloody knuckles, scratched hands, etc. Who designs these things?

__________________
Why duck?? It's a 9mm!

Back in 68 I dropped out of school and went into trade school for auto mechanics. After I graduated and got a job I felt I was doing good. As the years go by and more stuff are adding to the cars I was becoming frustrated. The labor charges goes higher and the job gets harder but my paycheck doesn't get much better.

So much for good times.

__________________
_It was love at first shot_

That's very kind of you and I appreciate the offer.

Please pardon my forward nature, but this is absurd and as ridiculous as saying to a farmer "I have a belief that if you can grow it you should be able to cook it."

This absurdity is amply illustrated simply by turning the statement around:

"I have a belief that if you can fix it you should be able to design it."

There's a reason why (most) mechanics don't have degrees in engineering: math.

The idea that because you are skilled in one area you should also be skilled in another is at least unrealistic, and in reality, it's just plain wrong. The reason is simple: for your expectation to be true, you must believe that the skills for design and repair are exactly the same. Of course, they are significantly different, both qualitatively and in terms of rigor. (Read: engineering is intellectually more difficult than wrenching.) And since the skills for each are different, then people with different talents and desires can easily excel in one and not the other. Any expectation that they should excel in both is a bit inhuman, in my opinion. What is needed is a cooperative relationship in which they work together to build a better product. More on why that doesn't happen in the next post.

Personally, I'm glad for the extreme division of labor that contributes to our prosperity. This division of labor includes the parts counter workers on whom I rely to identify and fetch the parts needed for me to complete my repair. What I *don't* need is unsolicited error dispensed as sales advice, which is the crux of my gripe. Don't tell me that semi-metallic pads damage my car. I know it's not true, and I know that you're trying to buffalo me.

Excellent question, but an even better question is "Why did they design it this way?" Every one of us who has bloodied our knuckles changing an alternator has sworn at the engineers who require us to remove part of the intake to get access to the alternator bracket mounting bolts.

Vehicles are designed with two considerations in mind. First, all THOSE parts have to fit into THAT space so that the vehicle keeps the shape that design and marketing thinks will sell. As vehicles have gotten round where they used to be square, and as vehicles have dedicated less room to machinery so that more may go to the people, packging engineers have had to solve some interesting challenges. Second, the manufacturer *only* cares about the speed and cost of assembly. They are in the business of selling new cars for as much profit as possible, and if designing a car a certain way requires removal of extra parts when the vehicle is eight years old, why would they care, especially if the design allows them to steal a few thousand additional sales at their competitors' expense?

We often wish that design and assembly engineers for the OEM's spent time fixing cars so they would learn some lessons. Well, those of us who fix cars need to learn the lesson directly above, and learn it well. It's so important it bears repeating: OEM's are in the business of selling as many cars for the highest profit permitted by the market. If you have to remove a brace or three and an intake manifold to get to the battery, *we* think that's kinda dumb, but the guys who designed the vehicle probably chose this because (a) the parts fit, and (b) they could assemble it quickly and cheaply.

Could manufacturers add "serviceability" as a design criterion? Yes, but why would they? They'd have to spend additional time (read: cost) and/or hire additional engineers (read: more cost) just to review all designs for compliance to a criterion that probably won't sell any cars and will surely decrease their profit.

Some will say, "Yeah, but they could save money on warranty claims by making the vehicle easier to fix. They might even increase their reputation in the market, thereby leading to increased future sales." Both of these may be true by themselves, but they can only be properly evaluated within the context of the choices faced by the OEM. Reduced warranty costs may be effected by improving vehicle serviceability, but they can also be reduced by improving overall quality (both design and assembly). These two approaches are not the same, and generally, improving quality is a better expenditure than trying to design for serviceability. Why? *Because there's more profit in it."

I bought new wipers for my car at Autozone Friday. Clearly I broke the "rules" as I simply marched up to the stand with the wipers, picked out what I needed and got in line to pay.

"Are you sure those are the right ones, Sir?"

Me: "Yep, a 22" and a 21"".

My money was taken with glances between the staff that clearly said, "He'll be back". The wipers fit my car just fine.

What?! You mean that using my brakes actually wears them out? Man! Those engineers have to do better!

There is no context within which The Shirt's statement about damaging my car could be evaluated as correct. As you note, the pads and discs are supposed to wear each other away. More importantly, as a matter of cost, the rate at which semi-metallics eat my shiny new rotors is completely irrelevant. I changed both discs and four pads for just under $85, including 6.75% sales tax. Suppose these discs last only 50,000 miles because I use semi-metallic pads, but they'd last 60,000 miles using organic. Does it really matter? Of course not. $85 in 50,000 miles vs. $85 in 60,000 miles changes the total cost of operating a car so little that any assertion is rightly laughed away.

What I'm about to say will be controversial to some participating in this thread, but I disagree that the drive to provide inexpensive aftermarket auto parts is a scourge. On the contrary, I think it a boon. I could have gone to Ford for the same parts and probably paid $200. Even if the parts from Ford were actually better (which I *highly* doubt), there is no way the increased quality could even begin to offset the massive difference in costs. Cheap auto parts exist because that's what the consumers want, and because I'd rather change my discs and pads twice in five years for $170 than I would to change them once for $200.

And let's dispense with any hint that OEM's don't also want the cheapest parts. Oh, they want the cheapest parts like a hormone-crazed teenage boy wants the touch of the girl next door. OEM's entire purchasing process is *built* on a competitive bidding process that provides the cheapest possible parts that meet spec.

What I *don't* want is advice about perceived superiority of parts. It is unlikely that Shirts at any parts counter, whether discount chain or dealer, really knows enough to make such judgements.

I have a good one.A friend of mine was replacing the starter on his 77 bronco.the starter would engage but wouldnt turn the 400m engine over.After I took him to Auto Zone 3 times and got the same results he wired it to the battery to test it .It engaged and turned,but he hit the gear with his thumb and stopped it.We made a 4th trip to AZ and got another went home and installed it same problem but he noticed a fingerprint on it that wasnt wiped off very well.He found an out of the way spot to scratch an x in it and took it back.Same counterman gave this **** about we didnt know what we were doing(he was a mechanic up until 2 years before,and I worked in a shop on diesels and heavy equipment and helped him build this engine and others )and he threatened to test it on the machine to prove us wrong.He hooked it up flipped the switchreal quick and said "see it works".Bill said do that again and he did and was looking real arrogant when it started making a grinding noise.He looked down and Bill was holding the gear still with his thumb.That wont turn over a v8.
Einstein went to the back came back set it on the counter,and gave us a dirty look(by this time the mgr was close watching the problem customers).Bill took it out of the box looked and there was the x scratched in the housing.He explained the whole ordeal to the mgr said he wanted his money back and was mad about the $10 dollars worth of gas blown getting the same bad starter 5 times.We went to NAPA and didnt have to make any extra trips.


Then there was a friend who worked at one in high school.Guy came in wanting a guide rod for a Mercury ford.He asked all of the questions.Merc or ford engine size etc. Customer said it didnt matter.So he tried finding out what part the man wanted.Not the push rod,not the piston rod,he patiently went through everything on a car that could be considered a rod.He finally gave up and told him he didnt know what he wanted.The guy looked at him and every other employee(they drew an audience) and said "The guide rod, man the guide rod, you know the rod over the grill that you use to guide the car down the road"

Everyone started laughing and the owner looked at him and said"you have to go to the Mercuryford DEALERSHIP to get a D@#N HOOD ORNAMENT.

So according to Chuck,farmers can't cook what they grow.Mechanics can't do math.So if you can't excel in one you can't excel in the other.This is pretty scary thinking.Skilled in one area and not in another?This type of thinking is exactly the reason this country is in the shape that it is in.So you are telling me that if I design it I don't have to to fix it?I don't have a college degree like you.I'm probably not as smart as you.You are surely part of the problem in this country.Don't mean to offend you.You can still come to me for all of your parts needs.I'll be the guy with a smile on his face.Let me know if you come upon a problem that nobody else can solve,I may be able to figure it out.

The absurdity is that I responded to this.I apologize to all.I am done.

While I've experienced many of the things described here, I don't see one of my pet peeves: just in time parts stock. That is, unless it's parts used almost daily, they have to be ordered. This gets interesting when either the wrong parts are ordered or there's a situation where the manufacturer used several different parts and you have to figure out exactly which one (like Honda the years they used something like 7 possible distributor caps).

You also have the cases where production changes were made and parts makers may not include gaskets where they've been made reusable. Of course, they're often not stocked either. I recall asking Advance where my gasket was ('96 F250, E4OD tranny): "You reuse it, sir." "Not in 1996, kid. I need a gasket!" "Ah, we can have it for you tomorrow, maybe." "Doesn't do me any good today, does it?" Like another gent noted, NAPA several hundred yards away solved my problem-and their filter had the correct parts numbers.

Come to think of it, the parts books frequently don't keep necessary information for older vehicles in place after design changes either.

Sorry but one last comment.I won't be "Fetchin" anything for you.Have a splendid day.

I never wrote anything remotely close to this. Please reread both your post and mine. You said this:

I have a belief that if you design it you should be able to fix it.

This statement says that you think that a designer should be *required* to also know how to fix what he designs. My objection is to your mandate, not to the idea that people can excel at multiple skill sets.

Ridiculous cause-and-effect fallacy about our country's problems notwithstanding, YES, this is exactly what I'm telling you. As for ungrounded phobias, yours may be easily dispelled by a simple examination of your own life.

Can you draw blood? Run a lab test? Interpret the results relative to quantitative norms? Take a patient history? Turn symptoms into a diagnosis of cause based on anatomy, physiology, and biochemistry? Prescribe a course of treatment knowing the chemical effects and side effects of drugs? Cut flesh to repair it?

No? Then I suppose you use doctors, nurses, phlebotomists, lab technicians, drug researchers, and pharmacists. Scary that you can't do it yourself.

Can you fly an airplane? Design its engines? Repair its airframe? Fill it with fuel? Drain its lavs?

No? Then I suppose you use pilots, aerospace engineers, A&P mechanics, and ground service airport workers when you want to fly somewhere. Scary that you can't do it yourself.

I'm guessing based on your participation in this forum that you own and shoot at least one Smith & Wesson. Can you design the gun? Manufacture the gun? Navigate the bazillion rules and regulations to which a gun manufacturer is increasingly subjected?

No? Then I suppose you rely on the engineers, accountants, lawyers, and factory workers at S&W. Scary that you can't do it yourself. Heck, you can't even make your own ammunition. You can buy the parts and the machine to assemble your own ammunition, but somebody else still has to make the parts and the machine.

I'm trying to illustrate absurdity with absurdity, of course. The idea that any man can be good at everything is unrealistic. Your notion that a man *must* be good at skill A as a requirement to also be good at skill B is simply ridiculous. Engineers don't need to be mechanics, just like mechanics don't need to be engineers.

If specialization frightens you, then I wonder if you sleep well at night, because your complete existence is dependent upon the deep skill of others. If there is a "problem with the country", it is not specialization of skill; it is a growing lack of skill. Companies today are complaining that they can't find people to fill positions. While this assertion is widely mocked by the unthinking ("Can't they see all the unemployed people?"), it is nonetheless true. It's not that companies can't find people; it's that they can't find people with the depth of specialized skill upon which our economy runs.

After 15 years on emailing lists and internet forums, I am *still* taken aback by the general lack of literacy and wholesale innumeracy I witness. These are just *basic* skills. Tack on detailed critical thought and a smidgen of imagination? Fuhgeddaboudit. That's when you get some guy at an auto parts store counter telling you that semi-metallic pads damage your car.

That's alright. College degrees are highly overrated in my opinion. Contrary to what they tell you, universities don't corner the market on learning, which is ultimately a personal activity where the amount of learning is directly proportional to the effort made by the individual.

Maybe, maybe not. I've said nothing about your intelligence because your smarts (and mine) are irrelevant. I've only posted my opinion about your opinions.

I refuse to be offended by accusations lacking in detailed thought and/or that cannot withstand the minutest scrutiny. Furthermore, I try not to judge a fellow poster's character or productivity based on limited writings on a gun forum where we're chatting about auto parts store workers, since it isn't possible to know a man well in such circumstances.

You might! You may find what I'm about to write unbelievable (though what you believe about me is irrelevant) but I enjoy relying upon the skills of those around me to enhance my life. You do too; you just think it's a sign of weakness or something. I routinely call upon those who know things I don't to help me solve problems.

Six years ago I was repairing rear brakes on my 1995 Ford Focus. I couldn't get the drums back on the shoes, and it wasn't obvious to me why. Know what I did? I called a friend who is a professional mechanic. He came over, looked at it for a few minutes and told me exactly what the problem was. I'm skeptical that he could design a drum brake assembly that would be (a) easy to assemble, (b) cost-effective, and (c) performs according to braking energy and power specifications, but he sure knew how to fix the broken parts, and for that depth of skill I was grateful.

A friend of mine put a Chevy 350 in an AMC J20 pickup. His radiator hose was about an inch too short. He went to one of the auto parts stores with his brand new Gates hose in hand. He told the guy he wanted another hose, only he wanted one an inch longer. The counter guy asked what it was off of. My friend said it didn't matter; he just needed one an inch longer. After a couple of times back and forth, my buddy gave in. When they got to "what size engine?" Sparky's clue light finally came on, as AMC offered a 360, but not a 350. He seized up, so my buddy asked for the Gates parts book, served himself, and lived happily ever after.

I will admit to having to go outside to look at my part to see what I needed. When working on a AMC Jeep, the first question they will ask you is, do you want the Motorcraft or the Delco? (Why couldn't they have done that with engines since they did it with everything else?) AMC is the worst on parts standardization and no, I can't just go to the dealership.

In other news, Willys has gone out of business as well.

__________________
Where's my dad's America?

Several years ago, I bought a new battery from K-mart. I took it home, hooked it up, and immediately fried the entire electrical system. They had charged the battery backwards, Positive was Negative. I took the battery back, the guy at the counter called the parts manager. He checked the battery with a voltmeter, confirmed it was backward, and then said,"Are you sure you didn't hook it up backward?" I replied, "If I had, nothing would have happened." He just stood there for a second, digesting this profound statement, and referred me to their claims department for a full payment for all repairs.

__________________
Dum vivo cano

Been there, done that. It's hard to find an 81 Chevy pickup with a 267 small block, but I had one. Most counter guys realize that a small block is a small block as long as you're not asking for internal components. I do feel that for best results you should treat the person behind the counter like you would want to be treated. This should be the rule for anything from buying a cup of coffee and a newspaper at your local mini mart to finding a set of lefty tighty righty loosey lug nuts for your Dodge Omni. That kid may not know an oil filter from a carburetor, but at least the kid is behind a counter trying to earn some of his or her own money.

I'm not bragging about being one of the "Shirts" or anything. I'm sure I've said a dumb thing or two I my short lived "Shirt" career. I'm sure I did give the deer in the headlights look when a customer came in and asked for spark plugs for his 350 and told me that the year model didn't matter.

I'm not a chevy guy. It's safe to say I bleed Ford blue. If a customer came in with a ford problem I was the guy. I've also heard some of my "Shirt" co-workers say some dumb junk. Now when I go to the parts stores I like to have the part # in hand. Sometimes I'm looking for a part for a project that's being "rigged" together and the "Shirt" is determined that he needs to know what it fits. All I want to do is go behind the counter to find what I'm looking for, but no the "Shirt" has to waste my time going back and forth bringing the wrong stuff.

Some of the dumbest and funniest stuff comes from the customer. One fine day a man comes in and says he needs a window regulator for his car. I asked the man "does it have power windows"? He replied "I don't know I just push the button and it goes up or down". Really? One woman was sure she had a 302 V8 under the hood of her Dodge mini van, and there was no telling her other wise even after I took her showed her the V6 that the factory installed. I could go on and on.

It doesn't take long to realize being a "shirt" that most the customers know more the you. They all have a degree in something. Most have no clue want size motor they have in their car/truck. They all need the part that sits on the "thingy" that connects to the "hicky" thats next to the "thing a ma jig" that plugs in to the "whatcha ma call it".

Dang kinda makes me miss being a "Shirt".

My first car when I was 18 years old was a 1977 Pontiac Grand Prix with a genuine Pontiac 400/6.6L engine and 400 THM transmission. The 1977 Grand Prix could have engines made by Buick, Olds or Pontiac under the hood, so the fifth digit of the VIN was needed for all engine parts. My car had the fairly rare Z for 400 Pontiac as fifth digit. The shirts would ALWAYS ignore my requests for code Z-400 Pontiac parts and give me Code R Olds or Code X Buick parts! "You sure that ain't an Olds?" Yes moron Come look under the hood if you don't believe me!

I got so tired of getting the wrong parts from the "shirts" that I memorized the entire VIN- 2J57Z7P201498!! I haven't had that darn car for over 20 years and can still remember that darn number. That Pontiac engine ran great, however it are fuel pumps, starters and water pumps ever 30K or so and spark plugs every 15, so I needed the right parts often! Bought it with 42K on it and sold it with 198K. Rust bucket, but it still ran good.

I went into an autoparts store looking for a gasket kit for a 225 Jeep V6 from a 71 (Jeep purchased the rights to that engine from Buick, then later sold it back to Buick, it became the 3.8 still in use today). The guy said "that's in inline engine" then tells starts to tell me his price. I stop him and say "why would I buy the wrong parts from you, no matter what the price?"