Hello All,

I picked up a copy of the June/July 2012 issue of Handguns magazines at my local gun store last week and found the article “Get to the Point” by Bart Skelton to be a very interesting read.

It is about point shooting – the art of firing a handgun quickly with little or no sight picture. According to the author, eyes are focused on the target, with an awareness of the gun barrel and front sight at the lower edge of the field of view.

Since most self-defense situations occur within 20 feet, the use of point shooting allows the handgun to be a position quickly and accurately fired to center of mass while focused on the threat. Again, this is according to Bart Skelton.

Sounds like something worth practicing in addition to the traditional two-handed Weaver stance.

I bought a DVD to learn more about point shooting:

“SHOOT HIM TO THE GROUND Tactical Point Shooting For The 21st Century”
By Matthew Tomkin

And a Kindle book:

“Bullseyes Don't Shoot Back”
By Rex Applegate

Does anyone here on the forum have any experience with this style of defensive shooting and would like to share with us their experiences?

Thank you in advance for sharing.

Richard in Plano, Texas

Point shooting gained new emphasis for me after reading about an NYPD report on shootings. Only 1 in 33 officers discharging their firearms in the line of duty during 2010 used his ( or her?) gunsights according to a NY Times article. That was a real shocker for me.

Target shooting is secondary now, but still necessary in my book especially for inexperienced shooters. Point shooting's probably best practiced from a draw and some ranges, especially indoor, do not allow that kind of firing. And point shooting is no excuse for firing wildly at random.

I point shoot out to 15 yds, after that I go to sights. It's a matter of consistent practice and an understanding of your goals. I'm shooting 4-5" groups at that range and better the closer in your get. I have a buddy who's background is Bullseye, he shoots nice little one hole groups at that range, the problem is I've put my 3 in the target before his first round comes off. He can't bring himself to give up grouping for a more street practical style of shooting. Studies have repeatedly shown that sights are rarely used in close quarters.

I do find the term "Point Shooting" as misnomer. Yes, I've practiced raising the gun w/o sights till I can be on target w/o having ever looked at the sights, but I still give the front sight a quick check if I'm over 7yds and in the daylight, to make sure I'm on line. I also practice the drawing motion the same way over and over, so that it's a routine, if it changes it hampers your shooting.

In short, I would say practice it, from the draw all the way to the shot, be prepared for your groups to be much worse than you are used to, but if you commit to it, in most people's cases, in six months you'll be there. There are a few people I've seen that just could not do it, but that's usually a mental issue. I really perfected my techniques during lights only drills as an LEO. In the dark, a guy than can point shoot has a huge advantage over the sight shooter, even with night sights, laser etc.

I will also confess, this was a natural way of shooting to me from day one with a pistol, so maybe I'm the wrong guy to comment on it.

JMO.

Based upon the information I have seen over the past few years, it seems most self defense instructors and schools are teaching some sort of point shooting in close up situations, with little or no use of the sights at all until the target gets outside arms distance.

Case in point, I recently read a book by Rob Pincus titled "Combat Focus Shooting". Much of what Mr. Pincus teaches in this book, might be categorized as point shooting. I have practiced some of his suggestions with my handguns and found these methods to be easy to learn, fast on target and accurate delivery of the bullet, with a little practice.

Find me the person who has time to line up and make their shot using a target-style approach and I'll show you someone who has options other than to shoot.

There are always exceptions, but the vast majority of self-defense shootings will involve the point method, whether the shooter has practiced it or not. For that reason alone -- not to mention its greater practicality in a fast-moving situation -- it should be part of one's practice.

And it's not at odds with the Weaver or any other particular stance -- in fact, practiced consistently it blends well with any stance you prefer. It simply means that your stance, muscle-memory and focus on the target line up the shot, not your front and rear sights.

It's instinctive and makes much more sense for real-world use.

This is not to discount traditional sights-based shooting. For the practical shooter, sights-based shooting allows focus on the finer points of marksmanship: breath, grip, point-of-aim and trigger pull; all of these things when worked on collectively and individually will improve overall technique, whatever the shooting style.

I like to open a practice session with a box or so of sights-based shooting, to warm up and to gauge if I'm on that day or if something needs correcting.

Once settled in, I switch to point shooting in a modified Weaver, either from the holster or from the low-ready. My eyes focus only on center mass of the target; aim, as it were, comes from target focus and muscle-memory.

As has already been noted, I think the biggest obstacle to proficiency with point shooting is the target shooter's mentality of wanting to make one ragged little hole in the bullseye. That's fine for competition; get over it for self-defense and learn to measure success in terms of fast (as in "slow is smooth, smooth is fast"), instinctive hits in center mass.

Hello Stats and Snakedog,

True, I think you do need to practice this form of shooting. And yes, a range may have limits on how they allow you to handle the weapon.

Snakedog,

I read somewhere that about 13% of shots fired in a close encounter gunfight hit center mass. I don't remember if this stat is nationwide, FBI only or NYPD.

Statesrightist, wow, 4-5 inch groups at 15 yards! You must practice quite a bit! I will limit myself to the more modest 7 yard line with my 340PD and Sig P238. Maybe I'll try the 15 yarders with my Sig P220 45 ACP.

I find handgun point shooting to be similar to shotgun shooting. Both require focus on the target and just awareness of the barrel in the peripheral vision. The adage "you aim a pistol and you point a shotgun" may be dated. At least for self-defense scenarios.

Thank you for the insights!

Richard in Plano Texas
USAF, Retired 1971-93

You made an excellent point, I should have qualified my comments with a "using full and mid-sized guns" line. I carry a 642 for a BUG and like you I'm shooting good groups at 7 yds, but the day I point shoot a 4" group at 15yds with my 642 I'll do a little victory dance...lol. That's more like keep them all in the A zone.

It's the way we trained from 0-15yds. No sights til we got to the 25yd barricade. It works well, but you do have to practice.

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Sheriff Russell Cottle. ret

i used to practice this when i started shooting almost 40 years ago and found the most improvement came from the right grips. I tried a bunch of different brands but the finger grove combats always seemed to work best for me and my size hands. Thusly i use Hogue rubber combats on my defensive guns.

no pretty grips for me, i want one that works




.

Russell reiterates a good rule - to be successful at point shooting, you have to practice.

Teezer, good advice on grips. In point shooting, according to its proponents, you must have a "pulverizng" hold on the grip. So you need a good size grip that will allow you to really grip the weapon.

We have to remember, point shooting is essentially one-handed shooting, so a good firm grip is essential.

I just read this in Rex Applegate's book: with point shooting, always use a double tap. Interesting observation. My next trip to the range will be all one-handed double-taps (our range allows double taps, but no quick draws or rapid fire). Two handed shooting is a bonus then; take it when you can, but 90% of the self-defense scenarios do not lend themselves to the Weaver double-handed stance. This is from what I read and hear.

That is why I keeping harping to my son to shoot one-handed with either hand and quit relying on that two-handed Weaver stance. As long as you hit center mass and stop the threat, you won't get extra credit for grouping your double-tap in a 2 inch circle in center mass. Again, from what I read and hear.

This is a most thought provoking discussion on what should we really be practicing at the range for self-defense.

Thank you so far for the different insights, but the general consensus is that point shooting is a worthwhile, life-saving self-defense skill. And practice makes perfect.

Cheers,

Richard in Plano Texas
USAF Retired, 1971-93

If you're shooting at the Bullet Trap, be warned that they do not permit "point" (unsighted) shooting.

Point shooting is a worthwhile endeavour but requires either quality training or a lot of trial and error practice. Follow-up practice is mandatory as point shooting is a skill that is quickly lost without practice.

Also, as someone mentioned, the right grip/fit of the gun is very important for good point shooting.

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Centennial Every Day

It's the only way I practice with my snubs...

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

I've seen a good drill to do. Start on your back and do three shots, sit up and do three shots, then to knees 3 shots, then stand three shots. Just don't shoot a knee. Aim between your legs. Cause if someone knocks you down and you have to draw... it's a good one to practice as well.

GnarlyTwoTracks,

Shoot between your legs practice, NEVER. Bad things can happen in the heat of battle.

If on the ground, you've fallen or were knocked down, learn to roll to your side a little and have BOTH LEGS and FEET out of the line of fire as you fire at the target. Cross your legs in the opposite direction of the shooting hand and roll on your side in that direction a little to be clear of the muzzles direction.

Practice shooting with the weak hand only too.

As Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch says " Never Point The Muzzle At Something You're Not Ready To Destroy."

Many ranges will not LET YOU DRAW FROM A HOLSTER for safety reasons though.

Point Shooting is a very good Defensive Shooting practice.

Some training courses and facilities offer NIGHT SHOOTING, even LIGHTS OUT and Flashlight shooting for defensive situations.

PRACTICE-PRACTICE-PRACTICE is the key, but Safe Practice is paramount to your well being.

Good Practice and Shooting.

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

I Bowhunt with a recurve and shoot instinctively. I don't use a sight to throw a baseball or football.

I do those three well because I've done them all for a long time.

Point shooting is no different, practice is the key to success. If you think about it objectively, the sights are just an aide. It's your focus and concentration that put the Arrow, Baseball, Football or Bullet on target.

Every movement we make is an exercise in hand/eye coordination. If you can feed yourself without sticking the fork into your forehead you can point shoot.

Was sent to a FBI Tactical revolver course back in 1979. Like many have said, as I remember 0-15 yd was draw, point and shoot from the hip. It was timed and you'd need to adjust quickly if the first round was off. From 15 yd out to 50 was aim and shoot, strong hand, then weak hand.

I am currently taking Louisiana's POST course -- the stages of fire shot from the 2 yard line, 4 yard line, and 7 yard line are essentially
point shooting -- and include off-hand shooting and kneeling position.
15 yard and 25 yard (barricade position) emphasize use of sights.
CQB (close quarter battle) in the military also teaches point shooting particularly in clearing buildings/rooms.

Photoman4,

Yes, I shoot at Bullet Trap over on K Avenue. The range stations are definitely not conducive to point shooting. I guess what I'll try is to let my straight arm come down till it touches the bench and bring the arm up and double-tap. Hopefully this is acceptable with the staff, if not, I am sure I'll have someone "tapping" me on the shoulder!

The pistol range at Elm Fork in Dallas has even bigger benches so point shooting practice may be a tad difficult there, plus, it is open on all sides unlike Bullet Trap that has barricades between stations.

The benches at Garland Shooting Range are even higher.

Teezer, I will have to investigate the Hogue Finger Groove Combat Grips and see if they affect the concealability of my 340PD. I have Hogue Bantam grips on it now. Not much of a difference in reduced recoil from the factory grips. But a a finger groove grip would certainly enhance the point shooting. The Alumagrips on my Sig P238 are comfortable even with 380+P ammo. My Sig P220 Combat has a thick rubber grip so it is good to go as well.

An attainable goal for me is to get proficient at point shooting with all three handguns out to 7 yards and then work on proficiency with the P220 out to 15 yards. And use aim shooting out to 25 yards.

KKECK5, FBI course had you shooting pistol out to 50 yards? Wow. My limit with my P220 45ACP is 25 yards, but then I am getting old and can't see the round targets beyond that. Maybe I should stick with the "bad guy" silouette targets from now on!

Excellent discussion on point shooting everyone! This type of shooting is definitely worthwhile to learn and it could very well be a life saver. Too bad more ranges don't have accommodations for point shooting. I guess USPSA shoots use this type of style. I should visit one of the USPSA shoots at Elm Fork sometime just to watch and ask questions.

Cheers,

Richard in Plano TX
USAF, Retired 1971-93

Richard, I got that tap on the shoulder at our local range. Was holding the pistol about waist level and pulling up to chest height, or so, to see what I hit. RO showeed me two-hand grip- I think that's going a bit far, and routinely shoot one-handed, but no longer raise&shoot- and they don;t allow double-taps either- 2 seconds between shots.

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No work? No eat. 2 Thes

I'll give up shooting b/f I put up with those kind of jerks. No double taps...my....

Well boys, right thare ya go...It's all in a nut-shell.

Kinda like roping a calf...It's all in the practice.


Su Amigo,
Dave

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

I went to my first professional golf tournament this week and it was amazing to watch those guys hit that little ball 150 yards and land it two or three feet from the hole! I'll be darned, but I couldn't find any sights on those golf clubs!

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Centennial Every Day

I've gotten the tap on the shoulder a few times over there.

As long as you get the gun up where you can look over the top, you'll be ok (more or less). Honestly, most point shoot instructors will teach a method that gets the gun up into your peripheral vision anyway. True hip shooting takes a TON of practice.

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Centennial Every Day

I've gotten to the age where I just can't seen handgun sights anymore, especially at the one local range that allows me to do some rapid fire practice. In general for rapid fire I'll set my target 30 feet out. At that distance I'll generally group between 4 and 5 inches with a split time around 1/2 second. If I push for speed I can get the split down to 3/10 but the group opens up to about 7 inches. For slow fire I'll push the target out to 50 feet with a 5 inch sticker and do my best to keep every shot within the sticker.

Now, my targets aren't nearly as pretty as when I was younger. However, today I'm able to shoot a lot faster and still be effective. I won't deny that I still desire shooting tiny little groups but have resigned myself to knowing that I'll have to use optics in order to do that.

During my 30 year LEO career I had to use my service revolver to protect myself more than once. I never had time to get a sight picture, never missed my "target" and will be eternally greatful for the point shooting training I received.

The only advise I can offer is to find a way to learn this life saving skill if you are serious about self defense. It works equally with revolvers or autos.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

I practice defensive shooting by point shooting because most self-defense situations happen quickly, in low light and at close range. Practice with the gun you will use.

Its dependent on the situation one is faced with.

On the street at arms length there's no sighted stance ive seen that will even let you get a sight picture. In my close call the bad guy was 25 feet away, with me moving backwards as he was advancing towards me. In that instance I had *JUST* enough room to draw and gain a proper sight picture and stance. Inside of 10 feet ,if you have to draw you'll be point shooting whether you want to or not.

This is true in a vehicle as well. If a carjacker comes to your driver side window , there's no physical way to get a sight picture without putting your face in the way of the slide on a semi-auto. A revolver perhaps may make a flash sight picture in a car easier,but nevertheless you won't be going Iscosoles , Weaver, or Chapman stance thumbs forward in the drivers seat of your car.

I learned to shoot at home, with an empty weapon. Pull the gun up quickly, and point at a predetermined target. THEN use your sights, for verification. I was taught that a light switch makes for a good "10 yard" target. Once you are comfortable, then repeat at the range. It may not work for everyone, but it works for me.

Ill have to post an example.

Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting shows Ed McGivern shooting between his legs from all kinds of positions, even while handcuffed. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

The same book also shows him shooting lead discs out of the air with his revolver, hitting them dead center. An assistant clicks the adjustable sight and the impact moves the corresponding amount off the center of the disk, proving that high speed precision shooting is possible by using the sights.

Dave Sinko

I think the reason they started us at 50 yards was to quickly show us that we weren't as good as we thought, ( a legend in my own mind) and it was just a waste of ammo.

Shoot! When talking about Ed McGivern and revolver shooting, ANYTHING is possible.

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Centennial Every Day

I like what's been said, and I would add that a target that gives some reinforcement when hit has been a positive element in all hand gun shooting for me. Gongs or old aluminum frying pans hung by wire are fun as well.

Now you tell me.....

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

Richard ...

If you've ever fired an AOW shotgun you'll know this comparison is dead-on.

Have you tried shooting a Colt New Agent (9mm or .45) with the gutter sight? It's an enlightening experience and takes a bit of getting used to since most experienced shooters are conditioned to work a firearm's front sight. It requires practice, but pays dividends once you're comfortable doing it.

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I'm with the banned ...

My slingshot doesn't have sights and I'm pretty good with it. Just ask the raccoons who visit every night.

His passing was too soon! Besides his radio and other pursuits, he offered training in the Twin Cities area as PlusPTechnology.com (plusp.com - plusp Resources and Information. This website is for sale!)
Site is now defunct.

He survived more than a handful of shootouts, second probably only to Jim Cirrillo in the modern era. As Jim spoke (paraphrase) of seeing each serration on the front blade of his Model 10, Darrel would tell you he never saw the sights in any of his fights. One of the big principles he tried to drive home was to get a gun that FITS you, or try and make it fit you.

The Gun Zone -- Darrell Mulroy

If you search THR and TFL , I think you will find his posts there as 'pluspinc'

There is an excellent little book called "Shooting to Live" by Fairbairn and Sykes. It goes into great detail to explain the training synapse to use with a new shooter for point shooting. The two fellows that authored it were cops in Hong Kong and were personally involved in a couple of hundred (that's right, several hundred) shootings. And I believe it was written in the 20's.

It's very informative and easy to follow. I highly recommend it.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

Has anyone used laser training aids as a way to practice point shooting at home?

Even though I've been point shooting since the mid-70's
I routinely use Crimson Trace Grips as a training aid.

I'm a night person and we live way off the road so I have the opportunity to
walk around the yard & barns at night and draw my gun and point it at "whatever",
then fully squeeze the grip with my middle finger to activate the sight to see how I did.

Sometimes I activate the laser about half-way through my
arm motion so the laser is on just before I get on target.

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Ogy

Hello Kelly Green, Silversmok3 and old cop,

All of you have excellent points regarding point shooting and self defense.

I was at Bullet Trap yesterday and took my P238 380ACP to try one-handed double-tap point-shooting at 7 yards. It went remarkably well.

I was able to straighten my arm sufficiently in the stall to practice bringing it up straight (couldn't crouch down, bench is too high). I shot a double-tap (ok at this range) as soon as the barrel was in my lower periphery vision on target center mass.

Sometimes I bent my wrist instead of holding it straight. This resulted in groin shots on the "bad guy" target. Still effective.

I need to concentrate on keeping the wrist locked and the barrel in line with the arm.

My son asked me why I insist on shooting with one hand. I keep telling him there will be a time when you can't use both hands or one arm is disabled or you need the other hand to do something else while you're firing. If I have time, I will use the Weaver, two-handed stance. If I can shoot effectively in self-defense scenarios with one hand, then it is a bonus when I can use two hands.

I also told him why do you think they call them "hand" guns instead of "hands" guns. He wasn't amused .

Next week, I take my Sig P220 Combat 45ACP for point shooting and the week after my 340PD.

Cheers,

Richard in Plano Texas
USAF (Retired 1971-93)

There is a reason that Secamps don't have sites...LOL

Andrew

Hi everyone. Just my two cents. Lots of good information on here. When I was in the army 67-70 when we were on the range learning they taught us point shooting basically. They gave us BB guns. Had someone stand 3' away off to the side. They put a metal disc on their thumb (about the sixe of a quarter) and flipped it into the air. You would raise the gun following the disc whlie looking at the front sight. It sounded crazy when they explained it but we were hitting 8-9 in a row within a day. Then we were on the rangge with M-14's using the same method out to 100 yards. Farther out we used kind on a combination between that and the sights. You didn't have much time if you used the sights though. I've been trying to use this with my 9c just need more practice. Keep your arms sraight. needs more work but it does work. Good shooting everybody.

I must not be following correctly- using sights wouldn't be point shooting...altho I couldn't hit a coin in the air with OR without em.

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No work? No eat. 2 Thes

It's available online in .pdf format here. An online HMTL version with other info is here.

Darned good read by a couple of guys who worked in a very dangerous place!- and lived to tell about it.

Ayoob discusses this in his book COMBAT HANDGUNNERY 6TH EDITION. Was going to try and scan it to attach here, but it's just too long.

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No work? No eat. 2 Thes

There's a term I've heard more than once dealing
with Point Shooting that goes something like this.

While Point Shooting isn't sighted fire, it is aimed fire.

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Ogy

The majority of POST courses now use the point method from the 2 and
4 yard lines -- sights from 7, 15 and 25 yard lines -- it does work but you have to practice it and practice it very well for it to work. I just completed the Louisiana POST course and we had a very good instructor
who instilled that technique in us.

I got dead serious about point shooting or threat focused shooting about 1970. It's a learned skill just like every other shooting technique. It's a rare event for me to use sights for anything inside 21 feet and even farther on many occasions.
F&S and other types of point shooting techniques are the only way to fight with a pistol,IMO.
A red ramp,or gold bead,or night sight,or a fiber optic sight are all good for indexing the end of the barrel in different lighting conditions,but are not necessarily required.
Indexing off the nose makes it all but impossible not to get good hits repeatedly in rapid fire.
Point shooting skills,once understood and developed are easily transferable to aerial shooting.
We get laughed at a lot on the bad *** forums by the latest whiz bangers,but these people refuse to even try to learn these skillsets.
The hottest item these days is RDS on pistols.That junk,just like lasers,will only get in your way and slow you down at true defensive shooting distances.Promoters of the red dots on pistols are getting rich from the enterprise,but there is really nothing new under the sun.
Point shooting works in fights period. It worked for the likes of Mr. Bryce,Col. Askins,Jordon,and hundreds of real gunfighters. It's insanely fast.It's more than accurate enough,and it will keep you alive. Your bullet will go where your eyes look. It requires training from someone who understands the concept,but once you get it,you'll never let go. You are focused on the threat(target) and your peripheral vision does the rest.

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Blessed be the Lord,my Rock

Sorry,sir,but I beg to differ.YOU could and can do it. If you have normal functional motor skills it will not be a problem. Don't sell yourself short.This is something that is within the grasp of anyone who wants to learn it.

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Blessed be the Lord,my Rock