All,

I stopped by my local gun shop the other day looking for some parts to help with my BRD (Black Rifle Disease), and on the used handgun shelf is a nice S&W 617 ten shot, 4" barrel (with lock) for a very fair price.

I think about it over night and pick it up the next day. I took it the range last night expecting to sight it in and use it to teach a class - but that's not how it went.

I set the target at 10 yards, and shooting from a bench, it kinda patterned instead of grouped - and the action had a clunky, rough feel to cocking the hammer in single action.

When I went to remove the empty casings, I see the brass ahead of the rim is swollen out. The chambers are not bored correctly.

So - I think I know why the previous owner traded it in. Now I get the joy of sending back to S&W. So much for a fun weekend.

Have a good weekend,
Bob S.

I tend to buy the older stuff that has seen some shooting. That is usually an indication that they work. A shooter will clean-up a lot easier than a pristine one that is screwed.

Good luck on the fix.

I usually buy clean/used guns instead of brand new - and this one looked good, but you never know until you get it out to the range.

On the plus side, I just got off the phone with S&W Customer Service, the FedEx label will be sent to me in a couple of days, and it will be repaired at No-Charge to me. So as long as the repair work is done correctly, I'll be happy with my new S&W.

Take care,
Bob S.

You never really know until you shoot a used revolver what it's going to shoot like but in mosts cases they perform as expected. I'm glad to hear that S&W is going to make it right for you and when it returns you will love it.

OP; I think all .22 revolvers do that - where the brass swells up beyond the rim.

Is this your first .22 revolver? Is it hard to extract the casings - like REALLY hard?

Reason I ask is; I'm pretty sure that ALL, every single .22 revolver made, has this problem - pretty much all the time. It starts out where the cases are hard to extract, then, after about 50-100 rounds (like 10 in each position) becomes nearly IMPOSSIBLE to extract them using the extractor rod and 'star' - you have to ream the cylinder with a brush between loadings and you still have to push the cases out one-by-one with a ramrod of some kind. I use a cleaning rod.

But it won't help that much, you'll eventually have to clean the gun - then start the process over.

My experience: ammo doesn't matter, all brands do this. Also, the problem is worse in this order: S&W 617, Taurus 94, Ruger, then S&W 34 (and other 6 shooters). Why? More rounds equals more friction from expanded casings. Those guns hold; 10, 9, 8 and 6 rounds, respectively. Less rounds = less friction.

Couple points:
* I doubt S&W can do anything to help you. It's more the ammo than the gun.
* That's why the Ruger SA's keep selling - people learn this and realize they'll need the 'ramrod feature' if they want to do any serious .22 revolver shooting.

Personally, I really like my 34-1, but the last two 22 handguns I bought were an old minty MkII and a new SR22P. I'm probably not buying anymore 22 revolvers - I shoot them too much and got tired of the ejection issue - so I've sold all mine besides the 34-1 because it only holds six.

__________________
But then, what do I know?

My model 17-2's get sticky after just a few rounds... only if I use the Remington stuff with the waxy lubricant. Most everything else works fine until about 8-10 cylinders of ammunition are fired, then every type of ammunition gets sticky. I heard this was unique to the early Model 17's in that the chambers are bored tighter than later versions. I have never noticed any case distortion. My Model 317 just shoots everything with no problems and no sticking.

I agree with you guys on the issue, but I was lead to believe from the OP....he could see a really bad problem that was more obvious than the norm. The fact that Smith took it back either indicates to me that he got hold of a rep that could not (or did not) explain that revolvers will get sticky if shot to "dirtiness", but then....he had other issues as well. I guess we will have to wait for the round-trip to see if they improve anything. BTW...I don't notice any serious fired case bulging from either of my 617's.

Apparently I've been blessed. I have a 17-3, an 18-3, and a 63-3, and I have no difficult ejection with any of them -even after 100+ rounds and no cleaning. I use the Federal Value Pak. After a number of cylinders I may have to push some in when loading, but I have no problem ejecting them.

Just my experience.

Andy

Ditto here - two no-dash 617s that at the very worst exhibit slightly sticky extraction after 100 or so rounds. I use CCI MiniMags (40-grain copper-plated round-nose) or Federal GameShok load #712 (38-grain copper-plated hollow-points).

Ed

As an owner of 8 .22llr revolvers 7 Smiths and one taurus 94 I would have to disagree with you. It is not normal, and S&W will fix the OP's revolver it may take more than one try or they may get it right the first time.

Stick with it and get it fixed.

To the OP

I had the same problem with my 617 and Smith replaced the cylinder and it is now just fine. It only took 10 days for the round trip.

To M3,

I have more than a few other 22 revolvers - S&W's, Colts & Rugers - none of them do this.

It is not a dirty gun issue either - this started with a clean gun on round 2, the first shot was smooth, all 9 others in that cylinder showed a problem when cocking the hammer. I noticed the bulged cases when I emptied the gun. I then put 40 more rounds through it (CCI Blaser), both single & double action - all had problems with the cylinder turning, cases bulging.

It seemed to me that S&W CS had seen this before when I described the problem, they were quick to say no problem - even with it being a used gun. So far - I'd have to say their CS has been great.

Have a good weekend,
Bob S.

I have an old model 17 that will go hundreds of rounds without ejection problems, and the cases just get a small mark at the extractor star. Boring the chambers and extractor star together would fix the buldging problem.

Well then, I don't know what to say...

I'm the only one on this board who has consistently bad luck with .22 revolver case ejection.

I guess I'll eventually try buying a new S&W instead of the usual used, pre-lock etc, variety and then, if I have extraction problems - why I'll just send it back to CS until the problem goes away.

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But then, what do I know?

I don't think anyone is picking on you - it's just been in my experience, a .22 rimfire revolver shouldn't deform the brass so much that it is noticeable to the naked eye, and it shouldn't tie up the action of the firearm.

Sticky extraction with a dirty gun is normal, but it shouldn't happen in just a few cylinders full of ammo.

This guy has his 617 tie up worse than mine - mine will still cock, just very hard...

Smith and Wesson 617: Jam Session - YouTube

S&W sent the call tag today - it will go to FedEx tomorrow.

Take care,
Bob S.

That gun (like yours I guess) is screwed. It seems to me the rounds are backing-out of the chambers upon firing and the reason the CCI lasted longer is probably that the brass is stronger. One would need to have the gun in his/her hands and make some measurements to try and see what was happening.

Smith had some serious issues with the first attempt at the 10-shots. They used an aluminum cylinder for a while until they could perfect the machining of the stainless in 10-shot. Maybe a bad one slips through now and then.

There is a lot of space between the holes on the old reliable 6-shooter......not much landscape between the bores on a 10-shot.

I have a model 34 and I have to tap the ejector rod with my pocket knife to get it to eject. I have never examined the brass, thought it was sticking because of powder fouling. I have run a brass brush through the charge holes but I can't remember if it made a difference.

Anyone take a finish reamer to their .22 cylinder holes - or a flex hone? Might be worth a try. You'd probably want to plug gauge first.

__________________
Joshua Brown(Town)

I own several Colt Diamondbacks in .22LR. They are all over 30 years old, and NEVER HAD A PROBLEM WITH EXTRACTION. My current production 617's chambers must be kept scrupulously clean to avoid problems.

__________________
'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

The shooter in the video did not demonstrate that he had any problem at all in loading the chambers, which leads me to believe they don't need reaming or honing. The indication is the brass is swelling, which to me indicates they could even be a bit too large. It might be interesting to see if the guy could shoot it enough to get the bores really dirty and see if the situation would actually improve. If the gun is locking up (and it was)...the cases are backing out and dragging on the recoil shield. It sounds like the tolerance between the recoil shield and the cylinder is too tall. To me, that means the extractor is improperly tooled (too thick). It would seem the only way to cure that is to replace the extractor, stretch the yoke-tube which pushes the cylinder back and takes up the end-shake. BUT...then you have the BTCG grow in the process. If the builder started with an extractor too thick to begin with and worked his way forward to get a correct BTCG....the gun is simply screwed. I'd just like to know the actual measurements in terms of BTCG, end-shake and overall gap.

This is just one of those things that you would have to be there to see what was going on.

My 617 is having the same type of jamming problems others have complained about. I am a tool and die maker and am going to put my 617 under a microscope and blueprint everything. At first glance I can see that I have a burr in the area under the firing pin that is milled so that the extractor has clearance. I'm wondering if the deformation of the heads of the rounds expands it enough to make contact. Before I do anything I'm going to take pictures of the burrs. I have no bulging on my fired cases. I've never in all my years had a problem with a S&W revolver.. I find this depressing.

Just a update - the 617 was received at S&W on June 7th, so as of today, it's been 4 weeks. I've not heard a thing except for a letter in the mail from S&W saying they received it.

Keeping my fingers crossed,
Bob S.

You are very unlucky then, I own and shoot many Smith. :-)22lr revolvers, and none of them do this.

I DOUBT the 617 would have the following it does if ALL of them were plagued with this problem. My 617 needs to be clean in order to function properly. I have several Colt Diamondbacks in .22LR that require similar routine maintenance in order to function properly. I think that the volume of .22LR shot per range session tends to be great because of the low cost, negligible recoil and just plain fun. As .22LR is very dirty by nature, the increased volume simply adds to the problem. BTW--I can get by with a few range sessions before I NEED to clean my .22 revolvers.

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'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

My Model 18, circa mid 60's, runs forever at the range absent extraction problems. I had a Ruger Single Six that had sticky extraction after about 100 rounds, but running a brass brush down the cylinders cured the problem and I kept on shooting.

__________________
Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

IMO a handgun is a machine just like a car, When buying a used one there is a chance it has unseen issues,
I think most of us have been there.

The fact that the manufacturer will take it back, inspect, repair and ship it back to you on their dime even though you are admittedly not the original owner will hopefully make a dramatic change in the outcome of this story.

If you get it back and its 100% your only out a little quality time with your new revolver but end up with a factory retuned and inspected gun.
If there is a problem with the cylinder you will probably get it back with a brand new cylinder,
If it turns out to be a frame problem they cannot fix you might just end up with a new revolver.

Looking forward to hear the outcome,
Good luck !

I'm a little surprised the repair will be done gratis.
The S&W lifetime warranty is supposed to apply only to the original owner I thought.
Glad it's working out for you.

I've got a used 17-2 (1964) that has no problem with ejection.
I can shoot various ammo without any problem.

I sent 2 revolvers to S&W for repair.
I never got confirmation they received the guns.
About 6 weeks later, the guns arrived at my house without any word from the factory.
I was totally surprised by their arrival.

I finally bought a 4" 617 a couple of weeks ago. I got out to the range last week, and started with a couple cylinders of mini mags since I had a partial box. On the third cylinder, they started getting very hard to extract. I thought oh no, I got one with problems, I'm going to have to ship it in. When the MMs ran out, I switched to Rem GBs. I noticed immediately they slipped in to the cylinder easier than the MMs, and after 10 cylinders they were still extracting fine. Then I switched to some Blazers, ran 10 cylinders and they all extracted fine. So I guess it's like most other 22s: find the ammo that works best for you and buy lots of it. For me, I guess that will be Rem GBs.

I have a model 17 that i put thousands of rounds thru with no malfunctions.

When I told the CS person it was a used gun, she said usually that would mean I had to pay to return it.

When she came back to the phone and said S&W would pick up the tab, I got the impression they have seen a few of these 617's with the same issue, so I got the free ride.

I'm looking forward to getting it back - I really like the way the gun feels/handles.

Have a good weekend,
Bob S.

I once had a Model 17 that would not fire more than a cylinder or so before it got really hard to extract empties. I traded it for a High Standard. I now have two pre 17's that will shoot about 50 to 100 rounds before getting sticky. Last year I found an original 617. I have had no problems with it and just out of curiosity am shooting it until it has an issue, so far several hundred rounds without cleaning, and it still extracts quite nicely.

This is no not the only thread concerning extracting issues with the Smith .22's. It seems that the sticky extraction after a box or so rounds in normal. Anything either side of that is not. Just my observation from what I have learned here.

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Richard Gillespie
FBINA 102

Ejection should be an easy one finger operation, try a different brand of ammo, but if that doesn't fix it the answer is that your chambers are out of spec.
It should be no problem to fire 500 rounds without having to clean or pound on the extractor rod. If your pistol won't do this the chambers are either rough, not reamed to spec or both.

This can easily be fixed with a revolver finishing reamer and 20 or 30 minutes of your time.

Send it to S&W, you local gunsmith or self rescue.

So - after waiting 5 weeks, I called S&W on Friday to find out what was up with my 617.
The CS person was pleasant to talk with, and she said since I had asked about changing the front sight to a fiber optic one, it was sent to "charge shop" after it was repaired.

She said it usually takes them 3-4 weeks to get it looked at, then they come up with a estimate, and see if the customer approves - if yes, it would then be another 2-3 weeks to get it done.

I asked how far along it was in that process, and she said it would be better if I called back today to get better information (I did call close to 5pm on a Friday).

I called today and was told they had not had a chance to look at it or work up a estimate, and since even if they had one it would be at least another 2 weeks, I said so ship it back and I'll work on the sight from this end.

With any luck, I hope to have the gun back by the weekend.

I'll keep y'all posted,
Bob S.

Wow, I'm glad i found this thread. I bought a new 617 last month and was surprised at the terrible double-action trigger pull. I saw cylinder rubbing at the top-rear of the frame, and lightly used a file to lessen the friction. After 100 rounds the trigger still "catches" on something rough when dry-firing rapidly double action.

I think I'll call S&W's CS next week to see if they'll clean it up. I bought the 617 because of good experience with other S&W revolver's great trigger pull, but so far I'm greatly disappointed.

NEVER DRYFIRE A RIMFIRE REVOLVER WITHOUT USING SNAP CAPS OR A SIMILAR DEVICE TO PREVENT THE FIRING PIN FROM STRIKING THE RIM OF THE CHAMBER.

__________________
'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

Well,
50+ years of dry-firing .22 revolvers and never saw that happen.

Just sayin'

My 4" 617 was bought new 9/08. My main complaint, the stout DA trigger pull, was remedied early. I broke it in on inexpensive Federal bulk pack ammo - which is still it's main diet. In one tortuous five week period of no cleaning, I passed 800 rounds before vanity would prevail and I had to clean the revolver. Even then, it was still serviceable as a firearm, it's cylinder not yet approaching Chia Pet status. Every round fired through it in that time was a Federal 550 pack of 36gr copper washed HPs, available then for <$16 at WallyWorld. A 5" 63 would join it the next fall - and a 3" 63 the fall after that.

I noticed the 63s needed more often cleaning... but they got a range of ammo, including the Federal bulk pack. That wasn't the problem - it was the CCI Stingers I 'tried' in both revolvers. It didn't matter - two cylinders or thirty of Fed bulk packs - followed by a cylinder or two of Stingers - and you were done with that revolver until you cleaned that cylinder. I tried the 617 next - 200 rounds of Fed bulk pack - or none - once you started shooting those CCI Stingers, you had a limit on your shooting before you would have to clean those chambers. Insertion and extraction would get more and more difficult as the round count climbed. A clean 63 seemed limited to 24 Stingers; the 617 made 30.

So, just as I learned with all of my rimfire long guns and Ruger MKII so many years ago, S&W rimfire revolvers, too, are picky as to ammo. The S&W 'Safety & Instruction Manual', supplied with their new revolvers, does mention this in a ftf vein, ie, select your rimfire ammo for reliable ignition. I would have sworn that I had read a caution against dry-firing a rimfire, but no mention of dry-firing anything was found in either of my latest two manuals.

Did I understand the OP correctly - you asked that they return your untouched revolver after four weeks of waiting for them to get to it? Did S&W's CS person ever explain that the summer was when their employees used most of their vacation time, which slowed the repair time - warranty or not? I would have left it. The fact that it didn't function when you bought it lightly used isn't a shock. I know of gun-guys who buy new S&W's - find a fault - and trade them - all in days. I don't know of anyone who sells/trades a 'good' S&W - except in dire circumstances. I am more like a lobster trap - they come in and can't leave! I guess that is why I like to buy new...

To the OP - hope you get your troubles resolved. The 617 is a fine plinking revolver - when right. No need for Eley Match or CMP Target ammo - if you wanted a bullseye .22, you should have bought a 41! Break that 617 in on the cheap, er, frugal ammo... you'll both be happier.

Stainz

I also have a sticky model 17 from the 70's. It is possibly the most accurate handgun I own. I have to hit the extractor down on the shooting bench to extract.

What's the best way to clean the cylinders? I was told coiling some copper scrub pad on the end of a rod will remove lead best.

WELL, IT FIRST HAPPENED TO ME OVER 50 YEARS AGO AND I NEVER DID IT AGAIN. ANYONE IS FREE TO TREAT THEIR WEAPONS AS THEY SEE FIT--JUST SAYIN'.....;=)

__________________
'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

Luck is on your side. Can I ask you to start buying my Lottery tickets for me?

AMEN, SIXGUN HUNTER........

__________________
'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

I think you've misunderstood what I said. I sent it back for warranty work, and while it was there, have S&W replace the front sight (I want a fiber optic one).

It seems S&W handles each separately - so the warranty work was completed, then it was sent to the "charge area" where it takes about 4 weeks to get it looked at for a estimate of what to charge, and then another 2 weeks once the customer gives the "OK". I've told them to send the repaired revolver back without the new sight - I'll take care of that myself.

I've had good luck buying used guns - some need a little work, most don't. I also know guys that buy and sell guns just so they can try a new gun - the sold/traded gun is like new, but they need to move on to another new toy. To each their own - I keep most of mine.

Well - if my other model 17's are any indication, it should be better than a "plinker", my 63 is a plinker - my 17's are capable of target grade accuracy (even if I'm not on some days )

I sure hope the FedEx guy gets here soon, I wanna play.

Happy Monday to all,
Bob S.

AAARRRGGGGHHHHHHH!!!! (sorry - had to get that out of my system)

I called S&W again today - It's been a week since I said to remove the gun from the "charge area" of the workshop, and ship it back to me, and I wanted to know when I should expect it.

The fellow there says "it's still in the charge area, waiting for a estimate".

I told him that last Monday, I asked that it be shipped back. He said he will walk over to that shop "right now" and bring it to shipping. He also suggested I call back tomorrow and get a tracking number.

I sure hope they fixed it, because I don't want to play anymore.

Bob S.

And the end of the story is - It's back, and it's fixed.

It took a little longer than it should have - I called last week to find out what was going on, and told them to ship it back without changing the sight.

I waited a week and called back - it was still waiting for the sight work. I told them I already said to send it back, and they said they would ship it out - two more day with phone calls each day, and it finally did get shipped and back to me on Friday.

I took it to the range today - no cylinder binding problems, and very good accuracy. I'm happy with my new revolver.

Let me say that everyone at S&W CS was very nice and tried to be helpful - but there seemed to be a failure to follow through by some.

Take care,
Bob S.

Glad to hear it all worked out. Its a shame to "Play Games" with something that should be OK. I recently bought a 617-4" 10 shot. Haven't shot it for accuracy yet, only plinking at 25 yds. So far it seems OK. Enjoy you're gun, Larry

I have 17-3 that has issues when I use Remington's in it, every thing else ejects just fine. Federals, CCI,Winchester no problem.

Messer, glad you got your 617 back and that it's good to go. Did they say what the issue was or did I miss that somewhere in the thread? Did they replace the cylinder?

Reading thru the thread it seems a lot of folks assumed that the issue was the typical K22 issue of tight chambers and dirty 22 ammo--very common and easily dealt with, and a product of the tight tolerances on a target 22.

The way I read it the cases were bulging, which indicates an overlarge chamber instead of one on the tight side as is usually the case. I know everybody's trying to be helpful, but dang, guys, read the post!

By the way, out of my three K22s, (a 17-3, a Masterpiece from '47 and a Combat Masterpiece from '51), the '51 CM is the only one that does not get sticky ejection after shooting for a while--oddly enough, it's the I shoot best!

Glad it worked out, Messer.

Yes - they replaced the cylinder, and re-cut the forcing cone. I didn't check it with feeler gauges, but the B/C gap looks to be about half of what it was.

I took it to the range on Sat. and at 10 yards, 20 rounds from the bench cuts a nice ragged 1" hole with the cheap ammo I had on hand. I'm sure it will do better once I find what it likes.

Yes - the chambers loaded easily - I didn't even have to push them in that last little bit as I'm used to on the other S&W rimfires I have. But the 1/16" of the case below the rim was swollen out so much, you didn't need dial calipers or a magnifying glass to see it.

Thanks - me too. S&W CS did a good job - I only wished I knew about the way they handled extra work requests - it would have saved me a month of waiting.

Happy Monday to all,
Bob S.