I live in an community that has a home owners association and encountered a situation this evening that has me bothered. There is a lake in the complex that my home backs up to. The association rules are that fishing is allowed only to residents and guests and it is catch and release only. The association has empowered certain residents to enforce these rules and issued them orange vests with "Lake Patrol" lettered on the back. We have lived here for 21 yrs. and are one of the original residents.

This evening my adult daughter and a friend were fishing and one of the lake patrol "officers" was approaching so I went down to the lake to see what the situation was. When he arrived he asked the girl's to see their drivers licenses to assure they were residents. I intervened and said I did not think they should show their ID's. I opined that since there was no governmental rule, ordinance or law governing their actions but instead a HOA rule he had no authority to ask for the presentation of an official government issued ID. I queried as to what authority he had to ask for ID and turned around to show me the "Lake Patrol" logo on the back of his vest and I said that this did not constitute any police authority or standing. The "Officer" then pulled out a cell phone and said he was calling the PD to assist, I said I would welcome the call as the PD, if they had probable cause to believe the girls were trespassing could ascertain the residency of the girls.

A lengthy discussion ensued between the "officer" and myself and I offered my opinion that were the girls keeping fish, littering or damaging the area I would be the first one to put a stop to that behavior. The PD never showed up and the girls kept fishing. He said I was being very confrontational, I offered that he had no police authority and had no right to be asking for governmental ID's to establish residency and if there were laws being violated it was a PD matter and not a HOA issue.

We talked a while longer and I told him I did not have a problem with the notion of reserving the area for those who pay for it but have a major problem with people being asked to display drivers licenses or other government ID's to a person whom I think has no authority to ask to see them. Perhaps a reasonable solution would be for the HOA to issue a card to residents to be displayed as needed in these situations.

Just curious as to whether others think I was out of line.

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John. SWCA #1586

Nope. Just one reason I will never live where an HOA is present.

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I hope I copied that right

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Agreed, I would've just told the putz that they were my guests and to move along.

You were definately not out of line.
I have always had a problem with being asked to see my "drivers license" when writing a check. When I opened my checking account, the lady at the bank didn't tell me I needed to know how to drive to be able to write checks.

Wingmaster

When asked for ID I always give them my Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit.
A few have said - *I can't accept that!*
I point out that it's a state issued ID -- So far only one time has the clerk insisted --
I told her to put the stuff back on the shelf - See Ya

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In dog years I'm dead.

You are correct in your actions and thanks for displaying the brass to stick up for your rights. Everyone has to be someone and I'll wage that if three or four large ominous looking men were in the area, the "official vest wearer" would cower behind something to get help.

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Go big or stay home

When a customer hands me a check, I ask for a drivers license. It's one of the few forms of identification acceptable.

It's for your protection and ours. Ever hear of check fraud?

OP, you did the right thing.

When we started looking for a house here in LexVegas a couple of years ago we gave the Real Estate agent three variables. 1) our price range, 2) size lot so I could add a 1000sq/ft garage and 3) no HOA. She said that in our price range that would be impossible. We waited. We are very happy with the house, lot, garage, pool and no HOA.

Man, I love our HOA. Provides good security and landscaping, and deals with the riff-raff for us. We read the covenants and restrictions before we built and we're happy to see them enforced. I've been a voting member of the HOA on and off since we built 13 years ago, and I'm amazed how well everything works.

I do not in any way think that the original poster was out of line. I'd bring it up at the HOA meeting - you want to keep the place feeling friendly.

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Now go make God proud...

I just don't see the big deal about showing this HOA patrol guy your drivers license as long as he doesn't take it and wright down information. In my opinion he was just trying to do his job. I think you need to complain to the people that can make changes to what is needed for an ID. We have a card for ID to get in the pool and tennis courts but I don't know about fishing. We have several small lakes. Don

PS As long as you were nice to the patrol guy I don't hink you were necessarily out of line.

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"Don't worry be happy"

I assume since you said that your house backs up to the lake your daughter and friend were on your property.If that is the case he was trespassing.I agree with you.My property,my daughter with my permission to be here.You sir on the other hand do not have permission,please get out.The HOA is the main problem here,but that's just my opinion.Good luck with this.

Sounds to me like you handled it all very well. If he had asked me for ID I probably would have been a smart alec. But then, I'm just an old trouble maker anyway.

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Wayne
Torn & Frayed

I'm a member of a very large national car forum that has a OT (off topic) section. At least once a month the topic of HOAs come up and from what I can see HOAs are not held in high regard by a lot of people. It appears from what I read that most HOA officers are little old ladies with nothing else to do but make trouble for the residents.

Yes there are some people you give a inch to well take a foot, but the average person maintains their property, is not noisy and tries to stay within the rules.

IT appears HOAs are very popular in some areas and nonexistent in others.

I for one do not want to live in a HOA controlled area and to the best of my knowledge there are none around me.

We do have some Lake Associations where many camps (like a development) form a group with officers that hold lake rights and those places are nothing but trouble.

I have my own private 100' beach but there is a association about a 1/4 mile away (about 50 camps with 60' of water frontage) and what a Charlie Foxtrot that group is.

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14 S&W Revs none with locks!

John, if you are this confrontational and angry I am not sure I can drink beer in Boise with you unless Burt provides some level of security.

You did the right thing.

I can understand your point. Why doesn't the HOA just issue "membership" photo ID cards to residents and require that a guest be accompanied by a resident when fishing?

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

I too hate HOA's. Unfortunately my wife fell in love with the house, and we have a HOA. Fortunately, the dues are extremely low, we live in the country, and the HOA here isn't nearly as restrictive as most. I can live with it.

My only thing to say about how you handled your situation is this, is it what you signed up for? Were you one of the ones who wanted the "patrol" making people who don't belong there leave? If you want your lake to be residents only, how are they to know who belongs and who does not, if they only have to say "we're visiting someone, and we won't show you ID"?

It has been my experience that no matter the intent, sooner or later, HOA heads tend to be or become people who desire as much power over others as they can manage to acquire.

I treat HOAs accordingly.

I have been an HOA board member, VP and president for my sub-division. It's a thankless job and I'll never do it again. Not for where I live now, anyway.

I had to ask folks that I knew were not residents if they were (usualy teens hanging-out in common areas). I always kept it friendly and never asked for ID.

John, if it had been me, I would assume anyone fishing from your property was doing it with your knowledge and concent and would not have even wasted my time to check it out. You did the right thing.

Well, I'll throw another opinion your way. I do think you were out of line. How is the person charged with patroling the lake supposed to confirm residence if he's not allowed to check something with the address? I believe you were being excessively confrontational and unreasonable. Why not show ID and get on with the day? My subdivision has CCR's but no HOA and no way to enforce the rules, therefore many people ignore the rules and do some really stupid things. Most HOAs are there to help property owners and hopefully, as much as possible, help maintain property values. I agree that sometime folks go a little far in enforcement but those folks can be replaced.

Were they fishing on your property?

I live in the sticks out in Ky.........When I pee off the porch I never am asked any questions, cept the dog wonders about me @ times

H.O.A.'s are as good or bad as the members who belong. When we bought our town home years ago, I got, read, and understood the C.C.&R.'s before closing. I will note the restrictions are based on common sense and are very livable.

I served on the B.O.D. for several years, other than a few chronic late dues payers we only had real problems with three or four residents.

My advise is read the CC&R's and get involved with your HOA.

kudzu3, I appreciate your response and am not opposed to the verification of resident or guest status of those using the property, it is certainly in my interest to have the area remain in good condition for the owners. My quibble was that a person whom I don't know, with no credentials, wearing an orange vest approached two young women at dusk and wanted to examine their drivers licenses which contains personal information including license number, address, birth date etc., I don't feel that presenting this type of information to an unknown person is the prudent or safest course of action. I don't know if you have a wife or children but if you do would you feel comfortable with them being asked to present that type of information to an unknown person?

I certainly think that the HOA could devise a system such as cards that confirm the person being asked could confirm they are a resident or guest without all the other information. I further think that the person checking for potential violations should have some sort of credential issued by the HOA to verify who he is. We are in the process of offering a proposal to the HOA that such a system be instituted to monitor lake usage.

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John. SWCA #1586

Sir, how well do you swim with that orange vest shoved up your *** ? He has no authority whatsoever to ask for anything.

In Idaho you are legally obligated to show your DL only to a certified LEO acting in the specifications of his duty. When you mention this to the minimum wage clerk who wants to take your check, they say "we don't need to take your check either".
IME, unfortunately fools on HOA boards are often replaced by other fools with a different agenda.
I would expect that as a homeowner and voting member my word should be acceptable that the fishermen were legally able to do so. If I doubted it as a concerned neighbor I would call the HOA and ask them to establish a policy at the next meeting of verifying proof or adding a fine on the HOA fees. If I were a supervising LEO and asked to send an officer to respond to a possible trespassing over a HOA bylaw i would tell them no politely unless it was an election year and my Chief was an elected official.

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Front sight and squeeze

Sounds reasonable. The reason I may see things through different eyes is that I worked security for a gated community for a year, and the abuse that we had to endure was shocking. Good luck with your HOA.

What would Zimmerman do?

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Dum vivo cano

Sounds like a great place to live......for someone other than me.

I live in a development that has a small lake and a 117 acre common area/park. We are issued pictured ID cards from the HOA and are required to show it to the security officers upon request when we are in the common areas. The common area includes the shoreline; I don't believe any of the houses along the lake actually own up to the water, so the security officers could in theory approach someone fishing. I don't have any problem showing them the HOA-issued ID, since I think it probably keeps non-resident traffic minimized. However, as many others have mentioned, I would not show them my government issued ID if asked.

Hee hee....I never knew John was such a hard ***...must be an Elgin thing or maybe a born-in-Canada thing?? I'm really sorry I have to miss Boise. We could have discussed HOAs. My house was in one when I bought and things worked well....our snow removal was superb. Most of the owners were terrified of potential liability so we got ourselves annexed. That cost a bunch of money and snow removal now sux.

Say 'aboot' for us John.

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Bob.
SWCA 1821

I would tell him I lost my license for drunk driving and beating up the last guy that asked to see my license.

For better or worse , you agreed to the rules and regulations of your 'private utopian community'.

I feel the OP did the right thing and commend him for his patience.

Unfortunately, we have HOA's at our home in metro Atlanta and in the north Georgia mountains. It does appear to me that power hungry people tend to get on the BODs and I have had run-ins with board members in both HOA's...none of which I started but I was not about to back off once I was confronted and threatened by these people who were never following their own written rules.

I promised to sue the HOA board members here at home and they decided to leave me alone. The Nazi in charge of the HOA at the mountain house avoids me like the plague now after a few encounters where I refused to show him I.D. in our drive way and the common property around the community lake.

Never had an HOA anywhere I lived but the subdivision where my son lives does. The HOA has one person (retired) who does nothing but ride around in a golf cart looking for anything he can write up. Believe it or not, golf cart guy actually left a "citation" on the door because my son's grass was not green enough early in the spring so he needed to re-sod his yard! My son went to the HOA meeting with pictures of his yard and surrounding yards that were still completely brown with large bare patches and basically told golf cart guy to fold his piece of paper until it was all corners and......well you get the picture.

A friend in Jacksonville ended up suing his HOA because they "lost" any record of his dues being paid for three years and demanded immediate payment. This happened after he went to a meeting to contest a fine they had levied. He had receipts for all three years showing payment of dues but the HOA didn't care, they still wanted money from him. Funny that as soon as it became a civil matter they "found" the records of his payments.

I'm sure that HOAs fulfill a need in keeping up the neighborhoods they serve but, from what I've seen, it seems that the BODs sometimes become rather demanding/domineering and don't like being challenged even if they are wrong.

CW

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μολὼν λαβέ

Bob, nothing worse than a mad Canadian/Elginite eh? Sorry you won't be in Boise but hanging out with Max and Burt I will probably look like Mother Theresa.

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John. SWCA #1586

Are they going to make you get a DL for your 9 year old?
If they want ID, THEY should issue it just like parking permits.

Responsability is a far different thing than enforcement authority.
If they want enforcement, hire a rent a cop and make sure they know the law.

OP did the right thing. I would have been far less polite about it.

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Gerry

first off, why shackle yourself with more government regulation? I can't foresee a circumstance were I ever join a HOA


get a boat. once you are on a boat, you are not on HOA property at all, and none of the HOA rules are enforceable.

I think you should ask for a photo ID. I would be willing to bet their are more than a few people that don't have a "drivers license" that are not trying to commit check fraud.

Wingmaster

In any community with an HOA there are always people who take their authority just a little too seriously. As an original owner you are likely well-known in your community, and the person who asked for your daughter's ID should have taken your word for it that she was not trespassing. You handled the situation well.

(HOAs are a fact of modern life. I've lived for years in a condo development, and I am well-known to the condo board and the management company. Yet I am required to fill out a questionaire and provide a photo ID to the management company every spring so I can use the pool at my building...it's a pain but I don't gripe about it: Rules are rules, and those rules apply to me as well as to everybody else. However, if somebody who knew me demanded to see my ID just because, we'd have a little issue with that!)

Local gated community had a problem where one homeowner supposedly violated regs by hanging an American flag in their living room. It could be seen if the shade were open , so people across the street complained.

I provide security for my subdivision, and we don't have a lake. But we do have a creek and it attracts a lot of miscreants who wander up and down it chasing tadpoles, finding fossils and other fun stuff that need watching. (granted, two of the biggest perps are my grandchildren). Being in charge of security, (AND a member of the hospitality committee), I devised a low cost plan to regulate access. I used an invisible pet fence, but their mother (my daughter) wouldnt let them wear the collars.

So then I switched over to OC an air soft gun, (Colt 1911 clone, of course) and when the above perps would begin having unauthorized fun, PFFFFFFT!!! Things were moving along famously, no one was having fun but me when guess what happened?!? My faithful and loving wife of 31 years bought my grandson an air soft gun! She armed the invader! Oh the humanity!

Law enforcement was never the same.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

Canada, eh? I didn't know that, eh! Can't speak for Max, but in comparison to me, you could probably be elected Pope. Remind me to tell you the story of the payroll, the 1911A1 and the pipe.

By the way, I'd have told the dude "foxtrot oscar", but I find I am having authority issues as I grow older.

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S&WCA 1729

Hsguy, you are a paragon of virtue and patience for how you handled that situation - very good call on your part. HOA's do serve a purpose
in allowing enforcement of rules designed to protect property investments (folks keeping their grass cut, no junk strewn about, etc) as it always seems every subdivision has 1 or 2 people who don't keep their property up. On the other hand, they also provide a venue for silly circumstances, such as what you had to put up with. I did not know that "Lake Patrol" was such a coveted position -- must be a long list of folks wanting to sign up for that job (Lol) -- it certainly dresses up the old resume to list "Lake Patrol" as an accomplishment. The shame is that such self-important people do exist and they are usually quite obnoxious about their "presumed" authority.

We had a situation in Shreveport in which a HOA insisted that a family take down a "Welcome Home" sign located in their front flower beds at their home for their son who was returning from Afghanistan -- a very tasteful sign 2x3 ft. HOA had a provision prohibiting signs of any kind in front yards. HOA filed a lawsuit, family got more offers of free legal assistance than you can imagine, the court of public opinion came into play (in favor of family), HOA did the smart thing and surrendered.

Our HOA has a provision that also bans signs -- during one of my deployments, they called my wife because she had sign in our front landscaping bed (artfully done by my unit's family support group) depicting our unit patch with a support your troops message - she told them to go to Hades -- the sign stayed up. By the way, even though our HOA rule also bans political signs, that is unconstitutional as a prohibition against free speech. We post signs supporting our candidates and get no complaints (which is perhaps a product of the fact that they all know that I am a lawyer). Other than that, we support our HOA.

Bottom line: you did the right thing and I admire your measured tone in how you addressed it.

That HOA guy is a frusrtrated wannabe beaucrat!

I agree. Over the years I've seen such horror stories. It is called "Empire Building" and HOA are notorious for it. Not only neighborhoods, but condos and the like experience this as well.

Problem is HOA often want people to THINK they are a government entity instead of a management entity. Because they are not strictly regulated, they often try to push the limits as to what they can get away with. I've seen some of them use intimidation and bullying on their residence, often for no other reason than egos.

They serve a purpose, but only to a specific point.

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The Last Standing Knight

If you are suggesting that the only way to ascertain compliance with HOA rules is to demand production of a government-issued ID, then I suggest that more imagination (and only a tiny bit) is necessary to envision alternate methods of inquiry. I would begin by explaining that I am tasked with enforcing HOA compliance and that I need to know if the ladies are residents or guests of residents. If they tell me they are residents, I probably accept the answer, introduce myself, and make a mental note. If they tell me they are guests of residents, I inquire as to who the residents are and ask for them to point out the residence. If I am suspicious at that point, I can go to the house and inquire.

The question is "What is too far?" In my opinion, asking somebody to produce ID is beyond the authority of the HOA patrolman. His job is to ascertain whether I am trespassing upon property to which I have no deed and for which I have no license for use. He is free to do that without aggressing against my person, and that means he cannot compel me to act in any way contrary to that which I choose. If I am guilty of a crime (in this case, trespass on private property) then he is free to call for assistance from actual law enforcement officers -- you know, people who are actually deputized to use force and violence in accordance with the law to compel people to act in a fashion contrary to that which they would otherwise choose.

This standard applies regardless of whether the property is common to the HOA or belongs to an individual deed holder. Suppose there was somebody unknown in my fenced backyard. I can approach him to ask him who he is and why he's there. I can ask him to identify himself and even to leave. But if he refuses, then I have to abide by the law, and in my state (Ohio) I cannot physically compel him to comply with my wishes unless I or somebody else in my charge is under threat of bodily harm or death. I cannot remove from my pocket my concealed handgun to intimidate him into complying. What I can do is inform that I will be calling law enforcement for assistance because I have asked him to leave and he will not. I can also take his picture and/or shoot video of him, something else that an HOA patrol can do. Then I have a record of his presence for use if later circumstances dictate.

My mother has a place in a retirement village in Mesa, AZ. In Jan. I went down there to see if my asthma would improve in a warmer climate, (compared to NW MT) dah! There is no over night parking on the street. All vehicles must be parked on the residence or in a designated parking spot. First night on the street. No problem. I found a place close by to park on a empty lot.
Two weeks later a HOA "security guard" came around and knocked on the door and asked if I had checked in and that I can't park on the street at night. He heard that I had been doing that. I started laughing at the poor guy. Told him I had checked in the first day and I only parked on the street the first night as I had just gotten in, but I had a permanent place to park and had been doing so.

He started getting a little forceful with me about the rules which I wasn't breaking. I just laughed at him again and said yea, OK and went back to soaking up the sun in Jan. Something we can't do in MT in Jan.!

Laughing sure defuses ego problem people.

John